Kamila Valieva: Anti-doping Case and Follow-ups

[Baron Vladimir]

really?
Let's say i am a diabetic practicing archery or even a sport like high jump or shot put. Should I be told that I am not allowed to compete ?
Diabetics can definitely practice many sports and be very healthy doing so. Some can even practice sports like swimming and long distance running.. Each case is different and that's why it's not easy getting a TUE. The whole point of sport is about fair play. TUEs provide a fair chance to those who need some drugs to live. If some cheaters want to mess with the system, it's up to them. I was a swimmer, not elite.. just good enough for regionals when I didn't grow up to be 6'5'' like some others. Even at that level, fair play was so important. It was ingrained in us. Coaches would teach us these values. Unfortunate how this is not as widespread, isn't it ? Sport can be such a wonderful experience.

Absolutely, because every professional sport preparation for a competition and plus competing in those contexts will inevitable high your sugar level, its a simple logic. Its like to say not to drink, for that matter.

 

[4everchan]

Absolutely, because every professional sport preparation for a competition and plus competing in those contexts will inevitable high your blood sugar, its a simple logic. Its like to say not to drink, for that matter.

Not necessarily.

@beachmouse gave you very good examples as well with TUEs are necessary.

have a read : two of these examples are with type 2.. different case.. but the other 3 are type ones... and very normal stories out there : the diagnosis often comes when you are already an elite athlete...

5 Olympians That Didn't Let Diabetes Slow Them Down

Did you know there are many Olympians with diabetes? Check out this list of these well-decorated and well-managed Olympians - Click Here!

popsdiabetes.com

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Not necessarily.

@beachmouse gave you very good examples as well with TUEs are necessary.

have a read

5 Olympians That Didn't Let Diabetes Slow Them Down

Did you know there are many Olympians with diabetes? Check out this list of these well-decorated and well-managed Olympians - Click Here!

popsdiabetes.com

Ok, so 5 of them. I agree with you it is not necessarily, but knowing how todays profesional sport is working, every honest medical practitioner will not advice you to be in the sport.

 

[4everchan]

Ok, so 5 of them. I agree with you it is not necessarily, but knowing how todays profesional sport is working, every honest medical practitioner will not advice you to be in the sport.

LOL... the article presents 5... i bet there are many more...

I remember Deanna Stellato : she had this weird virus last year. It could have been treated so easily with forbidden medication but nope.. they couldn't. So she had to fight off the virus and its complications for weeks. My point here is that she was able to do so.. but she may have needed steroids and required at TUE. Does that mean that she should quit ?

This is why TUEs are necessary. Sometimes, an athlete just needs a drug for a few weeks. Sometimes, it's a drug they will need all their lives but sport enhances their life and doesn't threaten it.

I am done here because I think we have gone full circle with this. If you think only 100% clean athletes should compete, without any health issues, then what about the long list of "authorized drugs" KV had ? If she's that sick, she should quit right ?

 

[Baron Vladimir]

LOL... the article presents 5... i bet there are many more...

I remember Deanna Stellato : she had this weird virus last year. It could have been treated so easily with forbidden medication but nope.. they couldn't. So she had to fight off the virus and its complications for weeks. My point here is that she was able to do so.. but she may have needed steroids and required at TUE. Does that mean that she should quit ?

This is why TUEs are necessary. Sometimes, an athlete just needs a drug for a few weeks. Sometimes, it's a drug they will need all their lives but sport enhances their life and doesn't threaten it.

I am done here because I think we have gone full circle with this. If you think only 100% clean athletes should compete, without any health issues, then what about the long list of "authorized drugs" KV had ? If she's that sick, she should quit right ?

She should at that moment, as she had corona virus prior to the nationals... As all those other athletes you are thinking about... And if athletes need a medicine all their life, they just shoudnt be professional athletes in first place, because that professional sport life can only ruin their condition. They can always do things they like recreationally, it is simple as that...

 

[4everchan]

She should at that moment, as she had corona virus prior... As all those other athletes you are thinking about... And if athletes need a drug all their life, they just shoudnt be professional athletes in first place, because that professional sport life can only ruin their condition, and they can do things they like recreationally, it is simple as that...

but it's not that simple.
Gary Hall was already an olympic gold champion when he found out, later, that he had diabetes type 1.

Are you saying that he should no longer be a swimmer?

I like you @Baron Vladimir : you often have very fun(ny) comments. but on this one occasion, we better just agree to disagree and move on.

Plus, I am drinking a super nice wine right now so I better leave this forum and enjoy my saturday

 

[Baron Vladimir]

but it's not that simple.
Gary Hall was already an olympic gold champion when he found out, later, that he had diabetes type 1.

Are you saying that he should no longer be a swimmer?

I like you @Baron Vladimir : you often have very fun(ny) comments. but on this one occasion, we better just agree to disagree and move on.

Plus, I am drinking a super nice wine right now so I better leave this forum and enjoy my saturday

He looks like an interesting case Enjoy your wine

 

[TallyT]

She should at that moment, as she had corona virus prior to the nationals... As all those other athletes you are thinking about... And if athletes need a medicine all their life, they just shoudnt be professional athletes in first place, because that professional sport life can only ruin their condition. They can always do things they like recreationally, it is simple as that...

Then Valieva (and quite possibly any others there or elsewhere on such a medical cornucopia? we don't know) should have quit some years ago, by your reasoning. Yes?

As has been stated Yuzuru Hanyu took approved asthma medication and he was by no means the only skater with asthma, I believe there have been quite a few in the elite ranks alone. I do not quite see how you could argue the professional sports life ruins that condition. The medicine controls the condition, it does not cure it or enhance their performance. Had Valieva had an argument that what she took was the same, she could have applied for permission to take it.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

They would never give TUE to Russian athletes in a current situation, to be fair... And TUE system is a mess. If you need TUE to compete, better not to compete at all, because that only means that competing at that level is not good for your health. TUE should not exist at all, that is the major thing ruining athletes health by allowing them to compete on medicines, as they are "doped", instead to help treating athletes health properly... I mean, do you know what medicine Simone Biles is taking in order to compete, that is a really strong medicine who can screw your general health, as your psychological and social wellbeing in the future... Simple solution is if you are not feeling well, just dont compete at the highest level at that moment, but tell that to Kamilas or Simones or many other athletes authorities and organizations who have profit from them...

There are literally Russians competing with TUEs For example, of 91 TUE applications to RUSADA in 2021, 43 were granted, many of which are automatically recognised by the international sporting federations (for example by the FIG).

She should at that moment, as she had corona virus prior... As all those other athletes you are thinking about... And if athletes need a drug all their life, they just shoudnt be professional athletes in first place, because that professional sport life can only ruin their condition, and they can do things they like recreationally, it is simple as that...

Elite sport ruins the condition of everyone who does them, even the most healthy people. Or do you think Evenia Medvedeva was born without being able to turn her upper body? So by your logic, nobody should be doing elite sports.
There is no evidence that people with for example Diabetes Type 1 are more negatively affected by doing elite sports if properly managed (as any other athlete should be too). And sports don't necessarily increase blood sugar, that depends on the actual type of sport being done (anaerobic or aerobic type). Guess diabetics should also avoid eating instead of taking medication, to avoid increasing their blood sugar levels.

In addition, as you brought up Simone Biles in prior comments, she is not taking ADHD medication because she's competing - Even if she had a boring and physically "safe" office job, she would very likely have to take the same medication (especially as she's been medicated for ADHD since she was a child, long before she was an elite athlete at a national or international level). She's not putting her health at additional risk any more than any other professional athlete does by competing in elite sports instead of being an office worker.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

Then Valieva (and quite possibly any others there or elsewhere on such a medical cornucopia? we don't know) should have quit some years ago, by your reasoning. Yes?

As has been stated Yuzuru Hanyu took approved asthma medication and he was by no means the only skater with asthma, I believe there have been quite a few in the elite ranks alone. I do not quite see how you could argue the professional sports life ruins that condition. The medicine controls the condition, it does not cure it or enhance their performance. Had Valieva had an argument that what she took was the same, she could have applied for permission to take it.

And, in fact, with normal asthmatics, sports actually lower the risk of asthma attacks in normal life, as your lung capacity is increased.

I'd also not be surprised if many skaters have exercise-induced asthma, as it has been shown that adverse training conditions (like chlorine (swimming) or low temperatures (skiing)) can lead to the development of exercise-induced asthma.

 

[4everchan]

And, in fact, with normal asthmatics, sports actually lower the risk of asthma attacks in normal life, as your lung capacity is increased.

I'd also not be surprised if many skaters have exercise-induced asthma, as it has been shown that adverse training conditions (like chlorine (swimming) or low temperatures (skiing)) can lead to the development of exercise-induced asthma.

(not that it matters because i was just a regional level swimmer but I had chlorine induced asthma) At the same time, swimming was the best ever thing I ever did for my health

 

[TallyT]

(not that it matters because i was just a regional level swimmer but I had chlorine induced asthma) At the same time, swimming was the best ever thing I ever did for my health

I don't have asthma myself but I live in one of the hotspots for it in Australia (that and hay fever) so I know quite a few people who have severe asthma. You have my sympathy.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

There are literally Russians competing with TUEs For example, of 91 TUE applications to RUSADA in 2021, 43 were granted, many of which are automatically recognised by the international sporting federations (for example by the FIG).


Elite sport ruins the condition of everyone who does them, even the most healthy people. Or do you think Evenia Medvedeva was born without being able to turn her upper body? So by your logic, nobody should be doing elite sports.
There is no evidence that people with for example Diabetes Type 1 are more negatively affected by doing elite sports if properly managed (as any other athlete should be too). And sports don't necessarily increase blood sugar, that depends on the actual type of sport being done (anaerobic or aerobic type). Guess diabetics should also avoid eating instead of taking medication, to avoid increasing their blood sugar levels.

In addition, as you brought up Simone Biles in prior comments, she is not taking ADHD medication because she's competing - Even if she had a boring and physically "safe" office job, she would very likely have to take the same medication (especially as she's been medicated for ADHD since she was a child, long before she was an elite athlete at a national or international level). She's not putting her health at additional risk any more than any other professional athlete does by competing in elite sports instead of being an office worker.

Ok, you took my words too literal, and in the context you only want to... First, you can compare the TUE numbers from other countries, to see that I was talking in general and in a broader sense of things (if you can find the numbers at all)... Second, what increases blood sugar is not just a sport, but the whole state you are in, and being in a pressure during the biggest competition as majority of athletes probably are, you just have no choice... And yes, Simone Biles would probably not take that kind of a medicine if she is doing another job, because not every ADHD is treating by that kind of medicine, nor the medicine is the only one that can help you if you have ADHD in first place, the first is actually to find adequate social environment in general, and elite sport is certainly not the best choice any therapist would recommend.. And looking how the elite sport looks today, yes, i think that majority of people, even 99% physically healthy shouldnt be involved in it, because if it not ruin their physical health it can ruin their psychological health, and the majority of things we are talking here are not simple diseases as corona virus, but include both physical and psychological component and many more in their nature... At last, im not saying those people should be forbidden to do elite sport, im just saying that majority of them have certainly healthier alternatives in their life. Just because they are bringing medals, that doesnt mean the environment they are in is the best choice for them...

 

[Arwen17]

In my opinion, she got a good deal not being provisionally suspended until the hearing.. That would really have meant 4 years without skating.. now, only what 22 months to go? She's very lucky.

It was nice she got to skate while she waited for the hearing. But I think one of the reasons they gave out 4 years is because she was skating for those 2 years already. AKA if she had been suspended immediately, there's a good chance it would have only been 2 years handed out at the hearing.
With this being such a high profile case, I'm sure there was a ton of pressure on them to not appear "too soft" on Russia (because of war and previous doping scandal). So they gave her "4 years" so she would at least be truly NOT skating for 2 years of them. If she had gotten a "slap on the wrist" and only banned for 2 years, then she would never have stopped skating at all and people would be constantly complaining about the fact she never truly stopped skating as being "too lenient" on Russia.

People were super excited that she would be banned from skating for 2 actual years (even tho its largely symbolic since Russia can't compete internationally anyway to this day), but then a lot of people were horrified to learn "not skating" also means she can't even train in most rinks or skate in shows. A lot people thought being "banned" just meant competition and nothing else. So I think there are some mixed feelings about the ban because of that, even from people who wanted her banned. They understand that not even being able to train for 2 years will end her career.


Personally, I think the lab did its job in terms of testing the sample. Kamila's lawyers would have gotten the case thrown out if the testing was faulty. And I think it's pretty far-fetched to think someone at the lab would deliberately try to sabotage her sample, whether they knew it was hers or not. It's easier to believe someone in Russia fed her contaminated food as sabotage than to believe the lab in Sweden would do something to her.
The only thing that "isn't fair" is how long the lab took to return the result AND that Russia isn't more careful with how they select their Olympic team. I've said this before: If labs can't be trusted to get results back on time, Russia needs to have a policy of not selecting anyone for an event if they have outstanding tests. Russia should make sure tests come back if they really are running an amazing behind-the-scenes doping program and don't want to get caught OR they should do this to try to keep from losing face internationally if they are innocent.

It's like Russia doesn't even care at all about saving face, whether they are innocent or guilty. They'd rather someone get caught and then have to waste tons of money on lawyers trying to argue and keep the medal from being stripped. It would be way more efficient to catch people who are contaminated before you send them to events, because again, that helps Russia keep medals regardless of what is or isn't going on behind the scenes.
I don't get it at all that Russia is so blasé about stuff like this. I don't take that as a sign of "guilt", but as the people running the joint having no brains at all and that everything is being run haphazardly.


As far as the reallocation of points, I think Russia might keep bronze because the rules are poorly written. I'm sure ISU will clear up and rewrite the rules for the future after all of this is finally finished.
Maybe ISU gave Russia bronze as "sorry we gave Kamila 4 years and sorry the lab results were so late that your team selections were poor", but I think its really that the rules are poorly written and this is what their lawyers said they needed to do. I'm sure the ISU expected appeals and not everyone to just quietly accept it. ISU chose what they think will hold up in court against those appeals.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

Ok, you took my words too literal, and in the context you only want to... First, you can compare the TUE numbers from other countries, to see that I was talking in general and in a broader sense of things (if you can find the numbers at all)...

The percentage of TUEs being approved is similar across multiple countries. When people don't apply for TUEs when they need them, they can only blame themselves and not try to be like "Well, they wouldn't have approved it anyway because I'm Russian."

Second, what increases blood sugar is not just a sport, but the whole state you are in, and being in a pressure during the biggest competition as majority of athletes probably are, you just have no choice...

A lot of things raise blood glucose levels more than being an elite athlete - Are people with diabetes Type 1 just not supposed to take part in life at all? Eating, a certain type of physical activity, pregnancy and giving birth (for women), taking exams, job interviews, ... All can raise blood glucose levels - And probably have a higher risk of leading to negative health outcomes than an elite athlete who is being closely monitored by medical professionals and coaches in these situations.

And yes, Simone Biles would probably not take that kind of a medicine if she is doing another job, because not every ADHD is treating by that kind of medicine, nor the medicine is the only one that can help you if you have ADHD in first place, the first is actually to find adequate social environment in general, and elite sport is certainly not the best choice any therapist would recommend..

Did you know that elite athletes are actually more likely to have ADHD than the general population? Definitely can't see how an environment with high levels of physical activity, well-structured but non-repetitive days and adrenaline kicks could be helpful for people with a disorder heavily characterised by hyperactivity, hyperfocus on specific things and dopamine deficiency, no not at all.
Sports has been well-documented to have very positive effects on people with ADHD, and in this case, I cannot see how the competitive factor would significantly negatively affect most symptoms of ADHD.
And Simone has taken ADHD meds since before she was an elite athlete, what makes you think that she'll quit them when she's no longer an elite athlete?

And looking how the elite sport looks today, yes, i think that majority of people, even 99% physically healthy shouldnt be involved in it, because if it not ruin their physical health it can ruin their psychological health, and the majority of things we are talking here are not simple diseases as corona virus, but include both physical and psychological component and many more in their nature...

Then why are you even still here and watching elite sports? On the one hand, you seem to find elite sports in general non-ethical and basically nobody should be doing them because of their negative health effects on physical and psychological health, on the other hand, you seem to have no issue with watching them for your own enjoyment. That seems contradictory to me.

At last, im not saying those people should be forbidden to do elite sport, im just saying that majority of them have certainly healthier alternatives in their life. Just because they are bringing medals, that doesnt mean the environment they are in is the best choice for them...

No, you just think it's your place to make decisions about what people should and shouldn't be allowed to do because of certain physical and mental conditions. And just a reminder "shouldn't" and "can't" are two sides of the same coin, depending on cultural background people even use "shouldn't" as a softener for "can't". A doctor telling you that you shouldn't eat something before surgery is actually just telling you that you can't eat anything before surgery, just more nicely.

 

[Skating91]

Save for the 'no offence' given to two Olympic champions, let alone all other women who expressed on ice their very best and achieved much more clean, than Valieva did doped. Again, the black-is-white Russian think.

I don't think such a complete talent has ever come along usually there is some kind of compromise between jumps and flexibility except with Valieva, then you have to remember the expression and charisma on the ice at just the age of 15, smashed every world record and still retains the world records. No woman will ever reach the level of Valieva. Look at what other 15 year olds do now. Even the best 15 year old skater and best juinor in the world under ISU rules Alisa Dvoeglazova is only marginally younger than Kamila in that Olympic season but there is simply no comparison although Alisa is by far the best 15 year old and junior (under ISU rules) in the world.

Okay you can blame the microdosing of TMZ, but this is the genius of Valieva. As a 15 year old child -- stumbled onto the almost perfect performance enhancing drug. She took a common heart drug, inexpensive, microdosed it giving her superhuman endurance in training and performance and smashed every world record. Not only a genius on the ice, but apparently a genius off it creating a formula that was almost undetectable, inexpensive, required no chemistry. This is something that has evaded even Balco Labs or Salazar and all these cyclists sticking needles into themselves, but a 15 year old girl and her mother perfected the formula.

At the upcoming doping Olympics I'm sure the entire field will be on some kind of TMZ concoction because this what allows an athlete to come along and be the best in history. She's so smart.

 

[skatesofgold]

I think it's time to kill the TUE myth in this thread.

A diabetic who receives a TUE doesn't do that to enhance performance but to live. It's pretty difficult for a normal (aka not an elite athlete) diabetic person to control their blood sugar with insulin already. You don't take these drugs if you don't need them, unless you are a doper

Same with many other drugs. TUEs are there when an athlete has a diagnosed medical condition requiring treatment to live. They are not there to get away with PEDs. I won't discuss anyone's TUEs because doing so is being unfair : we do not have access to their medical files.

However, here is the kicker, Kamila's athlete heart doesn't need treatment. So there is no way she would have been given a TUE.

I came here to make clear that TUEs are very regulated and do not give an advantage to some athletes. They will most likely take these drugs outside of their sportive career, for life.

It astounds me how ableist some of the people in this thread are. You shouldn't get to do elite sports just because you have absolutely nothing wrong in your body or mind. These people also don't understand the concept of equity.

 

[Skating91]

I'm not sure I understand you, are you saying if they refuse a test... they should all be presumed innocent and no action taken?

Refusing is a separate and equally serious violation in its own right. It's in the rules as such. They all know and choose to sign on for it by choosing to compete. Any athlete who does not want to follow this rule knows the possible consequences (me, I think it would be actually easier to take the test and then plead misadventure than refuse and then argue it was innocent because... what?)

Carolina Kostner a great skater no doubt, but I can't reconcile how she can get 16 months I think it was near the end of her career for aiding and abetting her cheat boyfriend (she obviously knew her boyfriend was a cheat or she wouldn't have lied to drug testers as a woman in her 30's), but Valieva for something she likely has no idea how a trace amount of this not particularly useful drug got into her system and even if she did as a 15 year old child she is the victim, receives 4 years in the prime of her career and people somehow this this is justice not a human tragedy.

It's a little like how drug laws are used to target a particular demographic in a country I won't mention but this mentality is being used in sports I fear. I don't know what to call it other than discrimination when a 15 year old child is victimised like this.

I'm not exaggerating, but I think to punish a child like this for 4 years for a trace amount of a common, over the counter drug that provides little benefit to an athlete even more so when you consider the enormous risk of being caught, it is by far the worst punishment handed out to an athlete in history. When you consider the genius of her as well, it is us who are the victims to be denied to see what she would have become over the next two years.

 

[Skating91]

There are any number of medical conditions that are just incredibly unpleasant and uncomfortable but not dangerous. And which often have no relation to athletic performance. Take hemorrhoids- French swimmer Fred Bosquet was suffering from them- they are something that should be treated in many cases but are not a barrier to competing at a high or even recreational level. He served a minor doping suspension because he grabbed a tube of cream to treat the condition while he was on training camp in Italy and hadn’t realized that even it was sold as the same brand and type that he had previously used to treat his condition back home, the Italian formula of the cream had a WADA-controlled substance in it while the French-sold version did not.

The onus is on the athlete to be aware of what to put in their body and he was careless not make sure that the cream complied, gaining an unfair athletic advantage in the process. That's not accidental or through no fault of their own, that is simply carelessness and should have been punished with 4 years given that children get 4 years for being careless.

 

[lariko]

I don't think such a complete talent has ever come along usually there is some kind of compromise between jumps and flexibility except with Valieva, then you have to remember the expression and charisma on the ice at just the age of 15, smashed every world record and still retains the world records. No woman will ever reach the level of Valieva. Look at what other 15 year olds do now. Even the best 15 year old skater and best juinor in the world under ISU rules Alisa Dvoeglazova is only marginally younger than Kamila in that Olympic season but there is simply no comparison although Alisa is by far the best 15 year old and junior (under ISU rules) in the world.

Okay you can blame the microdosing of TMZ, but this is the genius of Valieva. As a 15 year old child -- stumbled onto the almost perfect performance enhancing drug. She took a common heart drug, inexpensive, microdosed it giving her superhuman endurance in training and performance and smashed every world record. Not only a genius on the ice, but apparently a genius off it creating a formula that was almost undetectable, inexpensive, required no chemistry. This is something that has evaded even Balco Labs or Salazar and all these cyclists sticking needles into themselves, but a 15 year old girl and her mother perfected the formula.

At the upcoming Olympics I'm sure the entire field will be on some kind of TMZ concoction because this what allows an athlete to come along and be the best in history. She's so smart.

What I mean is that the only way to act from the start, was to promote and uphold all the clean, hardworking figure skaters in Russia and not destroy their ideals (if they still have any left after two years of witnessing blatant, humiliating lies) and careers on account of one cheater. But no, even after all this time and life lessons, they would rather put down the true champions in favor of hubris and partisanship.

Until RusFed learns that white is white, and black is black, and no amount of warped arguments can change that, the athletes who deserve accolades will suffer injustices, and that includes children, young adults and grown-ups. All of them had been attacked by RusFed's defending the indefensible.

But, the idea of honest competition is still a hard sell there, so...hail the champions of Magnitogorsk, lol.