Kamila Valieva: Anti-doping Case and Follow-ups

[lariko]

422. The Panel has decided that the Athlete did not discharge her burden of proving, pursuant to Clause 12.2.1 of the Russian ADR, that her ADRV was not intentional on the balance of probabilities. It is, as the Panel has said, difficult to prove a negative and so it has been the case here. It does not follow, and the Panel most certainly has not concluded, that Ms Valieva is a cheat or that she cheated on 25 December 2021 at the Russian National Championships or that she cheated when she won gold at the Beijing Olympics (or at any other time).

423. The Appellants have not established that the Athlete committed the ADRV intentionally, and nor do they have any obligation to do so. It must be recognised, however, that the conclusion of the investigation conducted by RUSADA (and to alesser extent by WADA) was that there was no evidence that she had acted intentionally.

424. The Panel is aware that some may think that a four-year ban imposed on a 15-year old Athlete in circumstances where it has not been established that she committed the ADRV intentionally is harsh and disproportionate. The Panel carefully considered whether there was scope for the exercise of its discretion to reduce the period of ineligibility according the principles of proportionality adumbrated in CAS2006/A/1025 and CAS 2007/A/1252. In the result, however, on the principal basis that this sanction is entirely in accord with (the strictures of) the Russian ADR (and the 2021 WADC), a majority of the Panel decided against such a course and in this respect adopts what was said by the panel in CAS 2018/A/5546 at ¶¶86-90:

Exactly. She didn't prove it and the Panel didn't feel there were grounds to reduce the punishment, based on Russian rules. Now, RusFed should comply with the same.

I am waiting.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

You didn't have to explain it to me. I understand your fallacious argument Valieva should be disqualified 10 points in each event, but somehow the Japanese skaters also receive those same 10 points in those same events. That does not make any sense. The highly qualified, independent lawyers that the ISU consulted for the last two years and have no understanding of these petty rivalries in figure skating, are on my side, whereas wise and impartial tabloid style journalists and commentators like Christine Brennan and David Lees who have never demonstrated an agenda against Russian skating have taken the position of wuz robbed, and we now require a really convoluted, illogical system of calculating these results that will open a can of worms in the future, all to Russia is denied a medal and Canada receives a medal they didn't really deserve (in an event that is frankly meaningless and should be removed from the Olympic schedule there is barely a team that can competitive in all four disciplines).

A disqualification is supposed to treat someone like they never even skated (as they weren't supposed to be able to), so no, it wouldn't be two people getting 10 points, as Kamila never even should have had the opportunity to get ten points under a disqualification.

Just like her World Record score from Euros will be removed and just like it's not two people winning Euros 2022 or two people placing fourth at the Olympics, but only one, because Kamila's results are supposed to be treated like they never even happened in the first place.

 

[lariko]

Also, in respect to trying to blame it on the lab. The lab went above and beyond to try to confirm the results of the A sample. They retested it twice, to make sure that there was no false positive. When results were inconclusive, they refined the protocol make sure they did not provide a false positive.

Also, the sample B was tested as well, at a later date, to ensure the testing was correct. Sample B also tested positive.

On 17 March 2022, at the Athlete’s request, the Stockholm Laboratory conducted an opening and analysis of the B Sample in the presence of an ISU representative, an independent representative from Antidoping Sverige, and the Athlete’s representative. The results indicated the presence of TMZ. The Stockholm Laboratory completed the Confirmation Procedure on the B Sample and (i) recorded the result in the Stockholm Laboratory’s LIMS and (ii) submitted to ADAMS (on 18 March 2023) a test report stating that the test result was an AAF for the B Sample for “S4. Hormone and metabolite Modulators/ trimetazidine”

The lab is the last institution to blame for the result, as they showed incredible adherence to the QA/QC and worked very fast to re-analyze the sample.

Providing that sampling results were not obtained prior to the Olympics and a simple communication with the lab might have revealed why (I don't know if lab is allowed to disclose the prelim findings subject to QA/QC confirmation), the decision to use Valieva in Team Competition was an unnecessary risk, given that two other team members could have delivered the same result and their choice would have agreed with national sentiment.

 

[lariko]

Just like her World Record score from Euros will be removed and just like it's not two people winning Euros 2022 or two people placing fourth at the Olympics, but only one, because Kamila's results are supposed to be treated like they never even happened in the first place.

Once the national results are treated the same, I would be satisfied.

 

[Skating91]

A disqualification is supposed to treat someone like they never even skated (as they weren't supposed to be able to), so no, it wouldn't be two people getting 10 points, as Kamila never even should have had the opportunity to get ten points under a disqualification.

She did skate, followed the rules, posted very good scores. You can't pretend she didn't complete the event according to the rules when she did.

If you want to get upset at anyone get upset at WADA and the lab for the inexplicable series of delays.

Just like her World Record score from Euros will be removed and just like it's not two people winning Euros 2022 or two people placing fourth at the Olympics, but only one, because Kamila's results are supposed to be treated like they never even happened in the first place.

It's the same everyone has moved up one place at Euros.

If there were minor medals to hand out for the Olympics team program then the two Japanese women would be upgraded to gold medal on account of Kamila's DQ.

The DQ comes first, then everyone moves up a place. Valieva was DQ'd which in turn meant her 10 points are cancelled and need to be taken off the team score. ISU applied the DQ to Valieva. If they had instructions to also implement a really convoluted system were you put her in last place first as a punishment, then apply DQ as a second punishment, then change everyone else's score, then maybe give Germany 7-10 points for the free skate they were supposed to participate , they would do it. Instead they went for the logical, clean approach. You could probably draw up a flow chart for this if it will help you.

 

[lariko]

Anyway, at least I can now watch Russian competitions from this day forward without having to see gross injustice to all the clean athletes. Awesome!

 

[Minz]

The DQ comes first, then everyone moves up a place. Valieva was DQ'd which in turn meant her 10 points are cancelled and need to be taken off the team score.

What is the point of moving up a place if you don't get the points for it?

By your logic, Kamila shouldn't get the Euros gold, but Anna, who got silver, shouldn't get it either, but we should still say that Anna is in first place.

 

[SubRosa]

Those who live by the ordinal, die by the ordinal.

As we experienced under 6.0, ranking skaters by ordinal is inherently potentially flip-floppy. So much so that Cinquanta stepped in with OBO to stop the flip-flops, before ditching 6.0 entirely for IJS.

The ISU, ever the organization of unintended consequences.

If not an ordinal system for the Team Event, then what? I wonder if something like the points system for the decathlon would work? How do you equate the value of a high jump performance with the value of a 1500 metre run? How do you equate the value of a Men's FS performance (typically the event with the highest scores) with a Pairs SP performance (typically the event with the lowest scores)?

The competitors would be skating against a points table instead of each other. Upside, does away with ordinals (and potential flip-flops, in the unusual event that a skater is disqualified). Potential downside, it could change strategy. We'd probably see fewer substitutions, more sticking with the same skaters for both short and free. But that's already done anyway (Russia not subbing at all in 2022, Canada only using one sub in 2018).

 

[Jumping_Bean]

She did skate, followed the rules, posted very good scores. You can't pretend she didn't complete the event according to the rules when she did.

That's exactly how disqualifications work though, if you like it or not. In figure skating, all of your scores are wiped completely if you are disqualified, as if you had withdrawn before the skate. See here for example: Before disqualification and after.

If you want to get upset at anyone get upset at WADA and the lab for the inexplicable series of delays.

There were no inexplicable or unexplained delays, as you've been told many times in this very thread.

The DQ comes first, then everyone moves up a place. Valieva was DQ'd which in turn meant her 10 points are cancelled and need to be taken off the team score. ISU applied the DQ to Valieva.

Exactly, you got it, the new placements are assigned after the disqualification, i.e. the points are also assigned after the disqualification and should be given without taking into account Kamila at all, as in the new results, it is as if she had withdrawn and not skated at all. 1st place equals 10 points, and they cannot go to Kamila as she is not a skater placed anywhere in the new results, so they have to go to the Japanese skaters.

If they had instructions to also implement a really convoluted system were you put her in last place first as a punishment, then apply DQ as a second punishment, then change everyone else's score, then maybe give Germany 7-10 points for the free skate they were supposed to participate , they would do it. Instead they went for the logical, clean approach. You could probably draw up a flow chart for this if it will help you.

It doesn't matter where Kamila placed, after her disqualification her results are supposed to be wiped clean. They're gone as if she had not skated, so whether she placed first orlast before does not matter at all. The placements are supposed to (like in the individual events) be calculated completely without her, so the points should be to. Also, Germany has nothing to do with this situation, they weren't even the team next in line, what are you even talking about?

 

[Jumping_Bean]

Those who live by the ordinal, die by the ordinal.

As we experienced under 6.0, ranking skaters by ordinal is inherently potentially flip-floppy. So much so that Cinquanta stepped in with OBO to stop the flip-flops, before ditching 6.0 entirely for IJS.

The ISU, ever the organization of unintended consequences.

If not an ordinal system for the Team Event, then what? I wonder if something like the points system for the decathlon would work? How do you equate the value of a high jump performance with the value of a 1500 metre run? How do you equate the value of a Men's FS performance (typically the event with the highest scores) with a Pairs SP performance (typically the event with the lowest scores)?

The competitors would be skating against a points table instead of each other. Upside, does away with ordinals (and potential flip-flops, in the unusual event that a skater is disqualified). Potential downside, it could change strategy. We'd probably see fewer substitutions, more sticking with the same skaters for both short and free. But that's already done anyway (Russia not subbing at all in 2022, Canada only using one sub in 2018).

Or I guess you could just add up the points themselves (like in gymnastics), but that would unproportionally favour teams with strong men. Or maybe do it by percentage (Score divided by highest score before team event under current judging system?)?

Doesn't make it any easier (more so the opposite), but at least there's no issue when anyone is disqualified.

 

[SubRosa]

You need to make each segment of the competition equitable, so each segment contributes equally to the result.

Actually, you can do away with tables altogether and just use factoring. IJS loves factoring.

I made up some factors, based on the highest scores as they stood at the end of the 2020-21 season. Factor = 100/highest score

Men SP - score x 0.89
Men FS - score x 0.44
Women SP - score x 1.17
Women FS - score x 0.60
Pairs SP - score x 1.21
Pairs FS - score x 0.64
Dance RD - score x 1.11
Dance FD - score x 0.73

Now each segment contributes equally to the final score.

Probably there are all kinds of equitability issues with these numbers. I may run the 2022 Team Event through an Excel sheet and see what comes out.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

She probably would. She took them before she was an elite gymnast, meaning that she needs to take them either way. If you're saying that not every ADHD is treated by medication, well, Simone's ADHD is. I don't see why her treatment for ADHD would change because of her profession.

I take ADHD meds. I've taken them for most of my life (and I'm still quite young). I am not an elite athlete, and I still need my meds.

I mean, if you think the medicines are helping you that's fine, i'm just saying from the knowledge and experience i have medicines can't cure you in some true sense, they are just keeping your ADHD on some level adequate for some society, and that's it...

 

[Baron Vladimir]

No, you just think it's your place to make decisions about what people should and shouldn't be allowed to do because of certain physical and mental conditions. And just a reminder "shouldn't" and "can't" are two sides of the same coin, depending on cultural background people even use "shouldn't" as a softener for "can't". A doctor telling you that you shouldn't eat something before surgery is actually just telling you that you can't eat anything before surgery, just more nicely.

No, I just think you want to argue for whatever reason you have...

 

[TallyT]

I mean, if you think the medicines are helping you that's fine, i'm just saying from the knowledge and experience i have medicines can't cure you in some true sense, they are just keeping your ADHD on some level adequate for some society, and that's it...

That is not your decision to make for anyone in the world except yourself, and is extremely rude in the bargain {apologies mods, but judging someone else's health needs is one factor towards shaming those with those needs.}

It's also irrelevant handwaving, if the ADHD medicine in question has been approved by the appropriate sports bodies. Had Valieva taken an approved one, this mess would never have occurred so there is no comparison.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

That is not your decision to make for anyone in the world except yourself, and is unspeakably rude in the bargain {apologies mods, but judging someone else's health needs is one factor towards shaming those with those needs.}

Im saying that as a psychologist and with a knowledge i have... If it is rude that my European knowledge on the topic is wrong, i don't know what to say... Except, i did say that in order to help on the topic...

 

[TallyT]

Im saying that as a psychologist and with a knowledge i have... If it is rude that my European knowledge on the topic is wrong, i don't know what to say... Except i said that in order to help on the topic...

You know nothing about the person in question though.

In any case, my second point stands. Simone Biles took an approved medication, Kamila Valieva a banned one.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

You know nothing about the person in question though.

In any case, my second point stands. Simone Biles took an approved medication, Kamila Valieva a banned one.

And all of those are your points, not mine... They are not connected with my topic at all.. When you try to read what i'm trying to say then we will talk... I apologize if i sounded rude, i've just wanted to be direct, because i don't have very much time to write here, so excuse moi, but being 'politically correct' for the sake of it - i would rather not

 

[Skating91]

What is the point of moving up a place if you don't get the points for it?

By your logic, Kamila shouldn't get the Euros gold, but Anna, who got silver, shouldn't get it either, but we should still say that Anna is in first place.

Shcherbakova was in first place, much like the two Japanese skaters in the team event. If there were minor medals they would receive gold.

Kamila's points were annulled, removed from the team total. The team has lost the maximum points they could have lost since she scored 10 points in two programs. This is a huge punishment.

The disqualification is applied to Kamila who earned 10 points in each program, therefore her 20 point contribution to the team tally is deducted.

There is no stipulation that before applying a disqualification you must place this person in last position and give them one point, redistribute the points for everyone else, then apply the disqualification.

The highly intelligent, impartial lawyers the ISU consulted with for two years agree with me on this one, and the tabloid style journalists and commentators who have had an agenda against particular people for many years agree with you.

 

[4everchan]

Kamila's points were annulled, removed from the team total. The team has lost the maximum points they could have lost since she scored 10 points in two programs.

they have not because they still retain 2 points away from the other teams...

This is a huge punishment.

really? it's the least harsh punishment they could receive for having a doped athlete compete for them.

The disqualification is applied to Kamila who earned 10 points in each program, therefore her 20 point contribution to the team tally is deducted.

I think everyone knows this and agrees with this

There is no stipulation that before applying a disqualification you must place this person in last position and give them one point, redistribute the points for everyone else, then apply the disqualification.

When an athlete is d/q for doping, all their results are erased... which means that leaving other athletes at 9-8 etc points is not following usual rules. Nobody is saying that Kamila should get 1 point here... she should simply disappear from the results book.

The highly intelligent, impartial lawyers the ISU consulted with for two years agree with me on this one, and the tabloid style journalists and commentators who have had an agenda against particular people for many years agree with you.

LOL Sorry but yeah.. This is funny.

 

[Skating91]

That's exactly how disqualifications work though, if you like it or not. In figure skating, all of your scores are wiped completely if you are disqualified, as if you had withdrawn before the skate. See here for example: Before disqualification and after.

That's what has happened. The Japanese won each program, and Kamila's 20 point contribution has now been deducted from the ROC team tally. It's the maximum possible punishment to ROC to have those 20 points taken from them.

There were no inexplicable or unexplained delays, as you've been told many times in this very thread.

There was a long period where they were perfecting some kind of method to retest the sample. They knew it was positive from 11th or 12th of January, but still took nearly 4 weeks to complete testing and get the result to Kamila -- alas, hours after the completion of the team event! Don't forget that WADA and their lab back in February 2022 were attacking RUSADA saying they were at fault for the delay, when that has been proven to be a complete lie. So their credibility is a little questionable.

Exactly, you got it, the new placements are assigned after the disqualification, i.e. the points are also assigned after the disqualification and should be given without taking into account Kamila at all, as in the new results, it is as if she had withdrawn and not skated at all. 1st place equals 10 points, and they cannot go to Kamila as she is not a skater placed anywhere in the new results, so they have to go to the Japanese skaters.

The disqualification is applied, which erases Kamila's 20 points contribution, which is deducted from the team tally. You are overthinking this.

It doesn't matter where Kamila placed, after her disqualification her results are supposed to be wiped clean.

They have been. Her points have been deducted from the team tally. You don't have to believe you can even count up ROC's tally yourself.

They're gone as if she had not skated, so whether she placed first orlast before does not matter at all. The placements are supposed to (like in the individual events) be calculated completely without her, so the points should be to.

Can you point me to this rule?

Also, Germany has nothing to do with this situation, they weren't even the team next in line, what are you even talking about?

I see the free skate is determined on team ranking.