Kamila Valieva: Anti-doping Case and Follow-ups

[TallyT]

Because on her WADA file, she would have to state who her coach is. I feel like some are trying to make this complicated. I am throwing a wish in here, of course details would be worked out. I simply believe that it's unfair that a young athlete gets all the blame and the entourage none.

You are perfectly right in that it isn't fair and there should be some way to hold them accountable. I am totally with you there. I am just not sure that trying to do so by employing a new rule that will immediately get sucked into a morass of legalities and legal rights and has a good chance of never getting out of that morass, is going to be the answer.

The thing is, the athlete cannot (if the testing is done right) simply deny any involvement, they can say they don't know, plead contamination or accident, but they cannot say 'it's nothing to do with me' because it's their sample, their body. The athlete is the only one where there will always be direct evidence, even if and when they manage to explain it away on appeal.

 

[4everchan]

You are perfectly right in that it isn't fair and there should be some way to hold them accountable. I am totally with you there. I am just not sure that trying to do so by employing a new rule that will immediately get sucked into a morass of legalities and legal rights and has a good chance of never getting out of that morass, is going to be the answer.

The thing is, the athlete cannot (if the testing is done right) simply deny any involvement, they can say they don't know, plead contamination or accident, but they cannot say 'it's nothing to do with me' because it's their sample, their body. The athlete is the only one where there will always be direct evidence, even if and when they manage to explain it away on appeal.

Just read the post above. This is not about legal rights but athletes and coaches abiding by wada's Code.

And that's why they are suggesting they would like stricter rules. If the rules pass, then those would be the rules to follow.

 

[saine]

Article from The Times about the case.

Travis Tygart of USADA:

“This example is exactly why we pushed for the passage of the Rodchenkov Anti-Fraud Act to be able to hold those who might be out of the sport system accountable and to leverage the investigative power of law enforcement to protect sport and athletes, especially young athletes who might be coerced into doping behaviour.”

Olivier Niggli of WADA:

Niggli said investigations would continue into Valieva’s entourage, but that they had been hampered by a lack of access caused by Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.

“There are many people around the athlete who could have played a role in this and obviously in this particular case they prefer to sacrifice her than to give any hint or any names,” he added.

“Explaining truly what happened and explaining the role of the entourage would have helped her a lot, but they decided not to do that, hence the tough punishment she got.”

Niggli accepts the lack of action against anyone in Valieva’s entourage was “completely and totally unsatisfactory” and said: “The risk is clear that those who are behind it will get away with it. It’s very frustrating, but it’s a matter of evidence and due process. But we will keep trying to find more evidence and if we can do something, then we will.”

Wada’s rules say anyone caught doping someone under 16 is banned for life and Niggli wants governments to bring in legislation which would make it a criminal offence. The Russian team’s explanation for Valieva’s positive test was that it was due to her eating a strawberry dessert that had been contaminated by her grandfather’s own heart medication. That claim was not accepted by Wada or CAS.

 

[TallyT]

Just read the post above. This is not about legal rights but athletes and coaches abiding by wada's Code.

And that's why they are suggesting they would like stricter rules. If the rules pass, then those would be the rules to follow.

But would they be able to appeal to a human rights court? I mean, I don't know the legalities but a federation like Rusfed would surely be able to try it because it would be without any. proof. whatsoever of involvement. As I said, the athlete can't claim that small but vital point. Look how coaches etc who know about sex abuse cases are usually let completely off the hook unless they are stupid enough to go on social media.

 

[4everchan]

But would they be able to appeal to a human rights court?

No. This is not a criminal offense but a code of conduct. When there's an issue, they appeal to CAS.

I mean, I don't know the legalities but a federation like Rusfed would surely be able to try it because it would be without any. proof. whatsoever of involvement.

For doping faults, the athletes have to prove their innocence, not the other way around. The proof is the test result. If they want to argue they didn't do it, they can try. I mentioned an automatic suspension of the entourage to simplify things but @el henry had another way to make it work with a lot more legal safety for a coach.

Just keep in mind that wada and cas are not judging crimes but sport misconduct.

 

[beachmouse]

The idea to suspend the coach when their athlete has doped is not applicable. No coach would ever take that risk to coach anybody anymore, you cannot and are not supposed to control every inch of your athlete's life - but even more importantly I don't think it's possible from a legal point of view.

There are a number of sports out there where a ‘head coach’ is effectively overseeing 120+ athletes and leaning on assistants and such for a lot of training time because they just don’t have the ability to know each athlete’s strengths and weaknesses at a granular level, or the head coach doesn’t have higher level specialist knowledge for certain aspects of training or competition. It would be a mess and not legally enforceable pretty much anywhere.

I have a question, is Kamila also suspended in participating in shows or any local competitions?

Kamila can do shows for entertainment purposes. She cannot work with a coach, choreographer, physical therapist, etc. that has a credential to train athletes for competitive purposes, except for the final 2-3 months of her ban when she is allowed to train with people who can help her return to competition. She cannot do local competitions or train with athletes (until shortly before the ban ends) who are competing in local competitions.

 

[Skating91]

There's a new Reuters article where they interview Duhamel and implying that there is something sinister about Valieva taking 56 supplements ages 13-15. The article even says she was plied with these supplements/drugs. Keep in mind this is over a two year period she may have used some of these supplements once or twice when she had a cold.

I'm not going to go through all the supplements, but will start from the first one.

Amino Vital Multi Energy - A Japanese drink jelly you drink out of a pouch with amino acids and vitamins, no doubt a lot of sugar Take it 20-30 minutes before training. A harmless energy drink, but they listed it to be sure.

Stimol - A sachet you put in your drink to treat temporary tiredness. Another site says it can treat cramping as well. For adults and children over 6.

Oral injection solution - Maybe she went to a dentist and received anesthesia I don't know what it means.

Magnelis B6 - Vitamin B6. Harmless vitamin.

Vitrum Superstress - Chewable multivitamin.
Composition
1 tablet weighing 1350 mg contains:
Vitamin B 1 - 3.3 mg
vitamin c - 500.0 mg
Vitamin b 2 - 4.0 mg
pantothenic acid - 9.0 mg
Vitamin B 3 - 45.0 mg
folic acid - 400.0 mcg
Vitamin B 6 - 4.0 mg
biotin - 45.0 mcg
Vitamin B 12 - 6.0 mcg
Iron - 16.0 mg
vitamin E - 30.0 mg

Panangin Forte - Just a supplement that contains potassium and magnesium.

Hypoxen - We know about that one it was one of the three listed/leaked.

L-Carnitine - Same as above.

Fluid Mg complex - Magnesium complex? Another harmless supplement.

Kreon - Pancreatic enzyme supplement that helps in digestion.

And it goes on and on. There's aspirin in there. They've listed Hypoxen capsules and then Hypoxen so a double up. There's medicated plaster skaters bang their knees the poor child needed a plaster they should have denied it

There is nothing to suggest she was taking aspirin or any of these supplements (or wearing a plaster) everyday. If she ingested it once, she listed it. That's all.

I'm suspicious of the intentions of that article where they say she was plied with 56 supplements. She was plied with an energy jelly you take before workout, she was plied with magnesium, she was plied with an aspirin, she was plied with a plaster....

It's too bad Reuters didn't do any research before writing that article.

 

[4everchan]

When mentioning a news article, it's best to post a link.

Here it is

https://www.reuters.com/sports/valievas-cocktail-medicines-raises-concerns-around-supplement-dangers-2024-04-12/

I read it very fast because it's old news....
They talked to Duhamel because she knows the topic very well. As a vegan athlete, she had some concerns about what she could and couldn't take to balance her plant-based diet.... and she opted to not take very much for a lot of reasons : she couldn't trust the safety of supplements in terms of health benefits or in terms of possible problems with doping rules. It's a very old subject, she's mentioned it times and times again, maybe even before Valieva's affair.

They talked to a nutritionist which is the important part of the article : have a read again.

"Even without looking at the list, in such a young athlete, (56) is a lot," said Montanari, a lecturer at Manchester Metropolitan University who works with elite athletes of all ages.
"When I have a call with parents, they ask me about supplements. It's usually their first or second question. I always back-pedal and say, 'Before looking into any supplements, let's look at their diet'."

He also warned of possible unhealthy side effects.
"There is little research, obviously for ethical reasons, done in youth athletes, so we don't know much about what could be side-effects of taking supplements," he said, adding there was a dangerous message in young athletes seeking success through pills and powders.
"You're teaching that athlete that by just taking some pills she will get the best out of it for her career and her performance and recovery," he said.
"It looks more or less like the bodybuilder at the gym who jumps on the bandwagon and takes everything, thinking 'Oh, that could work'."

That's the essence of the article and it needs to be spread. Not a single time do they mention Kamila in here directly. It's about educating parents and young athletes that a good diet is usually good enough. There is no need to play with powders and pills that may be legal but could harm a child's health. A friend of mine is a pharmacist : pretty much ANYTHING you put in your body has side effects. There is very little knowledge on how different vitamins/supplements will interact together. It's really not a good idea to take things when your healthy body doesn't need them, and that's the kicker here, a child shouldn't need these supplements.

It is old news? Yes. But it's worth saying it again.

This, I found especially sad and is also worth reading.

In its January report "Operation Refuge, An Examination of Doping Among Minors," WADA said that since 2012, 1,416 under-18s across all sports had returned positive doping tests.
They found the athlete often bore the full brunt of the positive test, reporting abandonment and blame from coaches and team mates.
One athlete said in the report said: "I remember no one, not a team mate, a coach, or another parent, offered any help or sympathy after I tested positive... everyone blamed me, and I blamed myself. I was trying to do my best and I still let everyone down."

In other words, once caught, a child is no longer useful. The child is getting all the blame. But really, it is the responsibility of the adults to educate these young athletes in proper nutrition and the danger of these supplements. It is the responsibility of the adults to educate these young athletes in fair play and healthy, clean sport. It is the responsibility of the adults to promote good ethics in elite sport. Children can only learn what they are taught.

 

[Diana Delafield]

When mentioning a news article, it's best to post a link.

Here it is

https://www.reuters.com/sports/valievas-cocktail-medicines-raises-concerns-around-supplement-dangers-2024-04-12/

I read it very fast because it's old news....
They talked to Duhamel because she knows the topic very well. As a vegan athlete, she had some concerns about what she could and couldn't take to balance her plant-based diet.... and she opted to not take very much for a lot of reasons : she couldn't trust the safety of supplements in terms of health benefits or in terms of possible problems with doping rules. It's a very old subject, she's mentioned it times and times again, maybe even before Valieva's affair.

They talked to a nutritionist which is the important part of the article : have a read again.



That's the essence of the article and it needs to be spread. Not a single time do they mention Kamila in here directly. It's about educating parents and young athletes that a good diet is usually good enough. There is no need to play with powders and pills that may be legal but could harm a child's health. A friend of mine is a pharmacist : pretty much ANYTHING you put in your body has side effects. There is very little knowledge on how different vitamins/supplements will interact together. It's really not a good idea to take things when your healthy body doesn't need them, and that's the kicker here, a child shouldn't need these supplements.

It is old news? Yes. But it's worth saying it again.

This, I found especially sad and is also worth reading.


In other words, once caught, a child is no longer useful. The child is getting all the blame. But really, it is the responsibility of the adults to educate these young athletes in proper nutrition and the danger of these supplements. It is the responsibility of the adults to educate these young athletes in fair play and healthy, clean sport. It is the responsibility of the adults to promote good ethics in elite sport. Children can only learn what they are taught.

That's what I thought when I read that list. No child -- no one of any age -- should be relying on that many supplements and drugs unless they have a serious chronic condition that makes it essential. We decided to be vegetarians when we were 30 (although not vegan; we consumed dairy products and I still do). But we were adults and, on the advice of a nutritionist friend, I continued to serve meat to our kids and they were told they could choose their diet when they were old enough to be out of the nest and buying their own groceries. With my multiple allergies including many plants, it's made food planning tricky, but I have a chart in my kitchen that plots what I can eat and it's second nature now. I have one prescription drug, an asthma prevention inhaler, that's been essential on a daily basis since I was in my teens, and that's it. By and large, our kids followed the example of their parents and are raising my grandkids the same way All of us are physically active, and test as biologically younger than our chronological ages, although genetics has a part in that. I wish that could have prevented my husband's early death from cancer, but at least his form wasn't caused by any poor lifestyle habits.

I wonder how common that list of 56 chemical-cocktail products is among skaters worldwide? (And if it was manufactured, it's a chemical product even if the main ingredient was extracted from a natural source.) Or is it common in the child-raising culture in general in her country?

PS: I do feed my cats meat, of course.

 

[Skating91]

When mentioning a news article, it's best to post a link.

Here it is

https://www.reuters.com/sports/valievas-cocktail-medicines-raises-concerns-around-supplement-dangers-2024-04-12/

I read it very fast because it's old news....
They talked to Duhamel because she knows the topic very well. As a vegan athlete, she had some concerns about what she could and couldn't take to balance her plant-based diet.... and she opted to not take very much for a lot of reasons : she couldn't trust the safety of supplements in terms of health benefits or in terms of possible problems with doping rules. It's a very old subject, she's mentioned it times and times again, maybe even before Valieva's affair.

They talked to a nutritionist which is the important part of the article : have a read again.

Let's first look at the title "Valieva's cocktail of medicines...." No agenda there of course .

As I have already shown in the cocktail of medicines include an energy jelly taken before a work out (high level athletes consume a lot of energy), a medicated plaster when she probably cut her knee on the ice or something along those lines, an aspirin, a chewable multivitamin. You get the point. Not to mention she wasn't taking a cocktail of 56 medicines at once (this is simply what is declared over a two year period).

There is little harm in taking multivitamins (most of it is peed out). Personally I don't take supplements. In fact I don't need any medication.

Duhamel in fact admits to taking vitamin B12 and iron supplements because the vegan diet does not give enough nutrition. She said she dropped a lot of weight quickly when she went vegan, adding that wasn't her goal (although it is very beneficial to weigh less in pairs skating). She also talks about having knee pain for a week then it suddenly going away when she went vegan...

https://olympic.ca/2015/11/25/duhamel-gives-us-a-look-at-the-life-of-a-world-champion-vegan-athlete/

You can read it here.

That's the essence of the article and it needs to be spread. Not a single time do they mention Kamila in here directly. It's about educating parents and young athletes that a good diet is usually good enough. There is no need to play with powders and pills that may be legal but could harm a child's health. A friend of mine is a pharmacist : pretty much ANYTHING you put in your body has side effects. There is very little knowledge on how different vitamins/supplements will interact together. It's really not a good idea to take things when your healthy body doesn't need them, and that's the kicker here, a child shouldn't need these supplements.

They don't mention Kamila? The title of the article says Valieva's cocktail of medicines...

Then the opening paragraph The revelation that banned teenage Russian figure skater Kamila Valieva had been plied with 56 medications and dietary aids has shone a light on the murky world of legal supplements

Plied with...

Very dishonest, appealing to emotion and prejudice. Most of them are multivitamins, there's a plaster, energy jelly, aspirin etc. At least Duhamel and the author could have done 20 minutes of research.

Diet would generally not be enough for a teenager training for the Olympics. In fact, dangerous. Even Duhamel herself admits to taking supplements because she had deficiencies with her vegan diet.

You can't compare an athlete preparing for the Olympics with the diet and nutritional requirements of a typical teenager or child.

 

[DancingCactus]

The obvious explanation for why they need all these supplements is that they don't have a balanced diet because they starve themselves.

 

[Skating91]

That's what I thought when I read that list. No child -- no one of any age -- should be relying on that many supplements and drugs unless they have a serious chronic condition that makes it essential. We decided to be vegetarians when we were 30 (although not vegan; we consumed dairy products and I still do). But we were adults and, on the advice of a nutritionist friend, I continued to serve meat to our kids and they were told they could choose their diet when they were old enough to be out of the nest and buying their own groceries.

They're mostly things like multivitamins, there's a plaster, an aspirin. Children and teenagers have higher nutritional requirements than adults. Kamila is an Olympic level athlete in a demanding sport, so her nutritional requirements are much higher. She'd be in a severe nutritional deficiency if she relied on the diet you give your children.

Again, she's not relying on drugs they are health supplements for the most part. Also, this was a two year period she might have put the medicated plaster on her knee once or twice, taken aspirin once for a female issue, etc.

With my multiple allergies including many plants, it's made food planning tricky, but I have a chart in my kitchen that plots what I can eat and it's second nature now. I have one prescription drug, an asthma prevention inhaler, that's been essential on a daily basis since I was in my teens, and that's it. By and large, our kids followed the example of their parents and are raising my grandkids the same way All of us are physically active, and test as biologically younger than our chronological ages, although genetics has a part in that. I wish that could have prevented my husband's early death from cancer, but at least his form wasn't caused by any poor lifestyle habits.

I wonder how common that list of 56 chemical-cocktail products is among skaters worldwide? (And if it was manufactured, it's a chemical product even if the main ingredient was extracted from a natural source.) Or is it common in the child-raising culture in general in her country?

PS: I do feed my cats meat, of course.

You must do some research because she wasn't on a chemical cocktail of 56 substances. It's articles like the Reuters one that is creating this misinformation. If she used something once it was declared. Most of these are various brands of supplements, things like medicated plaster, a chewable multivitamin, a energy jelly. If she had a blood test and there was a slight deficiency, it was here take this vitamin. My doctor would do the same. I'm not an athlete let alone an Olympic level one, so my nutritional requirements are completely different, my body isn't under loads, I'm not depleting resources.

I think you would be shocked at what athletes in any sport take. A normal person is looking at ways to cut the protein and carbs from their diet, an athlete is looking for ways to get extra into their diet. Eating chicken just won't be enough.

 

[Skating91]

The obvious explanation for why they need all these supplements is that they don't have a balanced diet because they starve themselves.

That's rife in the sport for sure. However, there was nothing abnormal about her height or overall size at 14 or 15. Generally the Eteri at that time were quite large for figure skaters like Valieva, Khromykh, Usachova. They towered over the other girls.

It does feel like people are really clutching at anything now by calling these 56 declared substances over two years (including energy drinks and plasters) a cocktail of drugs.

I think these multivitamins are useless for the most part since most is peed out. I don't think they are much use for the average healthy person. One of the highest level athletes on the planet at age 14 or 15 is a different story they have different requirements. Any parent that has bought their child a Happy Meal has done more harm to a child than giving them multivitamins.

 

[4everchan]

The number of contradictions or assumptions in some of these last few posts is too much for me. I am bowing out until there are some real news about this case.

 

[Diana Delafield]

I think you would be shocked at what athletes in any sport take. A normal person is looking at ways to cut the protein and carbs from their diet, an athlete is looking for ways to get extra into their diet. Eating chicken just won't be enough.

Sounds as if I would indeed be shocked! I skated to the senior level nationally, and competed for my university gymnastics team. One of my brothers competed internationally in fencing. Another brother was on the Canadian national rugby team. Our cousin rowed in the Olympics. And here all we did was just eat as much as we wanted of our regular meals . Looks like we really missed a lot of opportunities to improve our fitness !

 

[Skating91]

Sounds as if I would indeed be shocked! I skated to the senior level nationally, and competed for my university gymnastics team. One of my brothers competed internationally in fencing. Another brother was on the Canadian national rugby team. Our cousin rowed in the Olympics. And here all we did was just eat as much as we wanted of our regular meals . Looks like we really missed a lot of opportunities to improve our fitness !

For sure if you didn't optimise what was put into your body there was much room for improvement. Look at what someone like Djokovic or Tom Brady can achieve for decades optimising their diet. Russian female figure skating is the elite of female athletes in the world. If they were in a weak federation where 180 gets them on the national team, they could probably eat whatever they like.

 

[saine]

Per Christine Brennan, the gold and silver medals will be awarded to the US and Japanese teams August 7th in Paris:



Long overdue for the athletes, hopefully there won't be any further delays.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

Per Christine Brennan, the gold and silver medals will be awarded to the US and Japanese teams August 7th in Paris:



Long overdue for the athletes, hopefully there won't be any further delays.

Not sure where she is pulling this information from, but per the IOC's own reallocation process, this should be impossible.

Not only do all legal remedies have to be exhausted before a medal reallocation is able to officially happen, medals can only be reallocated at the same type of Olympic games (i.e. Summer Olympic medals at Summer Olympics and Winter Olympic medals at Winter Olympics), if the reallocation ceremony at the next Olympic games is the option chosen by the affected athletes.

 

[4everchan]

Not sure where she is pulling this information from, but per the IOC's own reallocation process, this should be impossible.

yeah.. that's very strange... let's forget about Canada for one minute but with 3 appeals from ROC, how could they award these medals to USA and JPN until the appeals have been heard and dealt with ? She does say " will it happen with CAS appeals" in her posts... So I guess she knows it's not even possible and just sharing non-sense ?

 

[yuumagical]

Per Christine Brennan, the gold and silver medals will be awarded to the US and Japanese teams August 7th in Paris:



Long overdue for the athletes, hopefully there won't be any further delays.

If this is really happening, then I hope the medal ceremony is public and/or livestreamed! I'm sure many skating fans (myself included) would love to see the American and Japanese skaters get their medals!