The Greatest Of All Time

[Ziotic]

Sorry, the post above mine that I answered to was about Kevin Van Der Perren

Though I do really like Kevin Reynolds too, he has character and wonderful hair and I think he was unlucky in that his time coincided with Patrick Chan so he was forever in the shadow.

Sometimes I wonder about this concept.

Is it better to be a number 2 like Reynolds or a number one like Jennifer Robinson?

Part of the 1/2 relationship is always pushing the person in front. If no one is chasing you don’t have the same drive.

 

[4everchan]

Sorry, the post above mine that I answered to was about Kevin Van Der Perren

Though I do really like Kevin Reynolds too, he has character and wonderful hair and I think he was unlucky in that his time coincided with Patrick Chan so he was forever in the shadow.

At the same time, we can opt to see Kevin's wonderful international achievements.
3rd at JGP final (gold and silver to qualify)
5th at junior worlds
5th at senior worlds
1st skater to land two different quads in the SP
1st skater to land five quads in one competition (SP+ LP)
One of the pioneers in trying the quad loop and three different quads in the LP.
3rd place at 4CC and of course 1st place at 4CC, ahead of stars like Hanyu, Yan, Takahashi, Ten and many others.

He was not successful in winning Canadian Nationals. Was it bad luck his time coincided with Patrick ? I am not so sure. I agree with @Ziotic here. Kevin knew he couldn't beat Patrick with skating skills. He tried to up the ante in the jump department which he did with relative success (lack of speed and URs didn't help + some injuries) . He also developed his own style, with Shae-Lynn Bourne as choreographer. They made footwoork very busy with many small moves to compensate for his lack of speed and power. In doing this, they created very cool programs. His own interest (for instance Japanese culture) also allowed him to research for many cool program ideas.

Nowadays, he has become a tech specialist and he knows what an under-rotation is and not afraid to call it.
He is a brilliant commentator.

I kept the best for last : my favourite moment in Kevin's career is the LP at Sochi team event, where many thought he should have placed ahead of Plushenko. HIs skate combined to the performances of the rest of the team, landed him a silver olympic medal.

Many skaters would sign up for such a career.

 

[synesthesia]

From the transcript posted above by another poster of what Patrick said in Montreal it seems he had nice words to say about Dai to whom he would rarely lose, if any time at all,

The ratio of who came out on top of the other was 8 to 8 (or 11 (Dai) to 9 (Patrick), if you count World Team Trophy and Japan Open), and Worlds 2012 could just as easily have gone the other way with a different judging panel – it was a close one. They had a pretty even rivalry, which of course kept evolving as Patrick became stronger and Dai got seriously injured, which hampered his jumping ability in the 2nd half of his senior career.

In any case, Patrick didn’t just have nice words to say about someone “to whom he would rarely lose, if any time at all”, but graciously paid respect to a strong rival he genuinely seems to admire.

 

[Skating91]

The current world record holders in singles would have equal claim to being the best of all time. One has by far the greatest technical content of all time, and the other the most complete of all time for the combination of both the first and second score. I don't think we'll see such a combination again.

 

[4everchan]

The current world record holders in singles would have equal claim to being the best of all time. One has by far the greatest technical content of all time, and the other the most complete of all time for the combination of both the first and second score. I don't think we'll see such a combination again.

Except that with constant rule changes, figure skating world records are per se, only season's best scores...

Just think about the removal of a jumping pass. Would that mean that the skater achieving the highest ever score with 7 passes remains forever the best skater ?

A one time high score doesn't also define the best ever. That's why it would be called a best score or a record...and not necessarily GOAT material.

Also, even without rule changes, a record is a score in a punctual moment in time. Many skaters have achieved this feat. If GOAT status were to be applied to best ever score, then, there would be a GOAT every other season.

 

[Skating91]

Except that with constant rule changes, figure skating world records are per so, only season's best scores...

Just think about the removal of a jumping pass. Would that mean that the skater achieving the highest ever score with 7 passes remains forever the best skater ?

A one time high score doesn't also define the best ever. That's why it would be called a best score or a record...and not necessarily GOAT material.

Also, even without rule changes, a record is a score in a punctual moment in time. Many skaters have achieved this feat. If GOAT status were to be applied to best ever score, then, there would be a GOAT every other season.

Point taken with Malinin although he is highly discriminated against with the lowballing of the 4A, but with Valieva she was breaking her own world records every 2-3 weeks. That doesn't even include the records that are no longer included. Then the following season going through a difficult puberty and emotional difficulties nearly won the Russian championships with free skate score that hasn't been surpassed in seniors since. Under any scoring system ever devised she is the world record higher having performed multiple times at a higher level than anyone has ever seen. It's not even opinion it is simple math add up the base values, perfect jumps, perfect spins, unsurpassed for PCS.

 

[cabres]

Yuzuru Hanyu
Yuna Kim
Aljona Savcenko
Tessa Virtue/Scott Moir

 

[4everchan]

Point taken with Malinin although he is highly discriminated against with the lowballing of the 4A, but with Valieva she was breaking her own world records every 2-3 weeks. That doesn't even include the records that are no longer included. Then the following season going through a difficult puberty and emotional difficulties nearly won the Russian championships with free skate score that hasn't been surpassed in seniors since. Under any scoring system ever devised she is the world record higher having performed multiple times at a higher level than anyone has ever seen. It's not even opinion it is simple math add up the base values, perfect jumps, perfect spins, unsurpassed for PCS.

I am a big advocate of "there is no real GOAT" and/or GOATs are in the eye of the beholder. So in that sense, you don't even need to find statistical reasons if you wish to declare Valieva as the GOAT. No justification needed. Just your own perception.

Personally, longevity is important. I would never claim that any of the Russian skaters who competed for just a couple seasons and disappeared are GOAT material. But that's just my opinion. I am not even touching other issues here. Not necessary for me.

But that's the whole point of this thread : everyone is allowed to take the bait and share their opinion about who they believe is the GOAT. There will never be a consensus about this.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

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I've seen this clip previously, and I know there are many b&w photos, and likely print reviews. Surely, some quotes by Salchow himself, along with entries about him in figure skating books. Dick Button may have had some knowledge of Salchow from his coach, Gus Lussi, and perhaps other mentors but seeing Salchow skate, I'm not so sure unless Dick spied him in brief movie theater newsreels, and/or read about his athletic feats. That was a different time altogether, when Dick was growing up. And vastly more different in Salchow's time period in terms of how information was acquired and shared. It would really be cool to hear Dick talk about what he knew about skating history and the greats who came before him when he grew up. For sure, Dick might have wished to be like Salchow in mastering the jump he invented and in winning multiple competitions like Salchow did, but in terms of skating style, no. Dick learned his technique and style from Gus Lussi, his own expressive inclinations, and possibly from dancers like Fred Astaire in the movie musicals prevalent during that era.

In the first decade of the 1900s, that was definitely state-of-the-art athletic skating from Salchow, but obviously rudimentary to our eyes, albeit very athletic. It was a time of exploration, invention, and expansion in skating, as the sport developed. I still contend that many skaters today do not know that a man named Ulrich Salchow was a Danish-born champion skater from Sweden. Most skaters of today likely regard 'Salchow' as a jump with an unusual name. Or, some skaters today may have only a vague understanding that someone with that name created the jump. All the more reason why discussions like we are having in this thread are important for fans and skaters to actively learn more about the complex, muti-faceted history of figure skating. I'll have to check out what @SkateGuardBlog has written about Ulrich Salchow.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I am pretty sure that Dick Button did.

In the clip that gkelly posted, even the dog couldn't wait to rush onto the ice and skate like Salchow.

Here is Button displaying his most prized possession, a special trophy given to him by Salchow after Button finished second at 1947 worlds and Salchow thought he should have got first. (Most recently the Salchow-Button trophy has been passed down to Jason Brown -- who no doubt is humble -- yet proud! -- to have become part of this unique tradition.)

https://www.antiquesandthearts.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/img_3088_fotor.jpg

For sure, I know about the famous Salchow Trophy that Ulrich Salchow himself gave to Dick Button because he admired his athletic skating prowess so much. Dick epitomized the vanguard of a new era of athleticism in figure skating, post WWII when North American skaters began to dominate for the first time.

I saw a clip from the Salchow award ceremony at 2024 U.S. Nationals. Jason Brown, as we would expect, was in tears and totally overcome with emotion. Dick Button could not be there, but Paul Wylie and John Misha Petkevich were there to take part in the award ceremony and presentation to Jason. They were all quite moved by the moment. Probably, the spirit of Salchow was present, and perhaps even that of the eager dog in the old skating clip, too.

Speaking of GOAT skaters, I will be very curious to see how the awarding of the Salchow Trophy every year is going to work out. It was presented by Salchow in 1947 to Dick Button after Salchow saw Dick skate at the 1947 World championships. Two years later, Salchow passed away. In 1972, Dick passed the trophy on to Petkevich because he so admired Petkevich's unique skating style and his career achievements (plus Petkevich attended Harvard, Dick's alma mater). In 2020, Petkevich decided to give the trophy to Paul Wylie, the 1992 Olympic silver medalist and Harvard alum who had a stellar pro career ( shame that pro opportunities no longer exist). In 2024, Jason is rewarded with the trophy as a consummate all-around skater and an exemplary artist-on-ice. Jason did not go to Harvard and he has never mastered the quad in competition, but he is a one-of-a-kind skater in an era of repetitive sameness in skating programs.

I would imagine that the Salchow Trophy will begin to be awarded to skaters like Deniss Vasiljevs, Yuma Kagiyama, and Shoma Uno (despite his retirement). Mikhail Kolyada would have been a worthy recipient, as well as Patrick Chan, Denis Ten, and Stephane Lambiel. Will the trophy remain in the men's sphere? If so, then a Sonja Henie Trophy, or a Peggy Fleming Trophy or a Janet Lynn Trophy should be created for the women's field.

 

[Arigato]

Personally, longevity is important. I would never claim that any of the Russian skaters who competed for just a couple seasons and disappeared are GOAT material.

Agreed. I made that same argument regarding musicians who have barely been around.

 

[Mathman]

I still contend that many skaters today do not know that a man named Ulrich Salchow was a Danish-born champion skater from Sweden.

That was the point of the original post that brought up the rhetorical questions, "How many skaters of today say that they want to skate like Ulrich Salchow? Like Sonja Henie?

None. Of course skaters are most awestruck by the luminaries just a few years older than they -- Michelle Kwan idolized Oksana Baiul (although her true inspiration was Brian Boitano )

As for Sonja Henie, I doubt that the young Alexei Yagudin ever said, "I want to skate like Sonja Henie when I grow up" -- but he did!

 

[Mathman]

About record number of points versus an extended period of dominance, I always think of Peggy Fleming. She holds the all time SU record with 1970.5 points. But decades after we have forgotten what the numbers meant back then, she is still admired for her three world championships and Olympic gold medal, plus the qualities of her skating for that era.

Trivia question: Name two things that Peggy Fleming and Patrick Chan have in common. They both have three world titles and they both have their own line of fine wines. (So does Wayne Gretzky, but he nips Fleming and Chan by his Stanley Cup count: 4). )

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

That was the point of the original post that brought up the rhetorical questions, "How many skaters of today say that they want to skate like Ulrich Salchow? Like Sonja Henie?

None. Of course skaters are most awestruck by the luminaries just a few years older than they -- Michelle Kwan idolized Oksana Baiul (although her true inspiration was Brian Boitano )

As for Sonja Henie, I doubt that the young Alexei Yagudin ever said, "I want to skate like Sonja Henie when I grow up" -- but he did!

Well, again, the rudimentary footage of Ulrich Salchow does not actually tell us a great deal about how he skated, except that he was athletic and creative. I am saying that I wish skaters today would be more connected to and aware of skating history and the great pioneers of the sport that came before them. It just doesn't seem to be a priority for the skating community. There is so much rich history to discover. Other sports like tennis and baseball stay better connected to their historic pasts.

I have been reading some of @SkateGuardBlog's books on skating history. He indicates that while music was used for some early competitions post Jackson Haines' creative use of music in show programs, the usage of music at competitions was random and generic, i.e., selections of specific music for skaters' programs was not a thing.

I have never heard Michelle express that she 'idolized' Oksana Baiul. Perhaps MK admired and was inspired by Baiul. In what way did Yagudin skate like Henie?

ETA:
Speaking of music, is there a thread here about the catastrophic decision by US fed to not allow program music to be shared on skaters' program videos, after events have been streamed, e.g. on Peacock!

 

[TallyT]

Speaking of music, is there a thread here about the catastrophic decision by US fed to not allow program music to be shared on skaters' program videos, after events have been streamed, e.g. on Peacock!

It's been started.

 

[Mathman]

Well, again, the rudimentary footage of Ulrich Salchow does not actually tell us a great deal about how he skated.

I kind of disagree. To me it looks like he had secure edges, precise and quick turns, good speed and acceleration, fine posture, and excellent ice coverage. Jumps? He could do a Salchow!

Plus, I think his costume influenced Nathan Chen.

By the way, I belive that the first lady who mastered this jump was Theresa Weld (Blanchard) sometime around 1916. Weld won the U.S. championship 6 times in singles and 9 times s in pairs, and competed in both singles and pairs at three Olympics, winning bronze in singles in 920.

But the Salchow jump was almost her undoing, As detailed in Ellen Kestenbaums’ wonderfully researched book Culture on Ice, when Ms. Weld did her Salchow at the 2020 Olympics, her skirt flew up to her kness, causing a big scandal and an official reprimand from the ISU,

Here she is, flying skirts and all..

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[TallyT]

As detailed in Ellen Kestenbaums’ wonderfully researched book Culture on Ice, when Ms. Weld did her Salchow at the 1920 Olympics, her skirt flew up to her kness, causing a big scandal and an official reprimand from the ISU,

Here she is, flying skirts and all..

- YouTube

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I am shocked, appalled and looking for some pearls to clutch though actually, that looks like an elegant and attractive period outfit.

 

[Mathman]

In what way did Yagudin skate like Henie?

Footwork.

Sweetheart of Sigma Chi, 1945.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sjnfkEOpsE&t=2m20s

Winter, 2002.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UlVeNEBFKE&t=3m34s

OK, hers was circular, his straight line. Still…

I think that there was also a similarity in program construction, for instance in the placement of spins. (But jumps-wise he led off with a4T-3T, she with a single Lutz (in the opposite direction) – so there’s that.). Henie brought a little more energy and pizzazz to the first half of the program, but Alexei caught up by the end.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I kind of disagree. To me it looks like he had secure edges, precise and quick turns, good speed and acceleration, fine posture, and excellent ice coverage. Jumps? He could do a Salchow!

Note that I said the footage of Salchow's skating is rudimentary, due to the primitive recording equipment available at the time, which of course was considered amazing and incredible back then. Salchow's skating is state-of-the-art for the time period. He exhibits great precision, athleticism, and creativity, but also a bit of stiffness and lack of full use of his arms. Possibly, some of the stiffness might appear that way due to the limitations of the camera. (See additional historical information on Salchow's skating in my final paragraphs below).

He could perform a single salchow because he invented the jump. LOL! I wonder if he ever progressed to doing double salchows; It was a time of exploration of possibilities and invention of moves when the sport was in its youth. Human physical abilities have advanced since then. But today the clarity and precision of foundational basics have been lost and/ or corrupted. It would be helpful to relearn the best basics of the past to combine with the most beneficial advancements of today.

I checked @SkateGuardBlog's (Ryan Stevens') book, Technical Merit: A History of Figure Skating Jumps (2023) to learn more about Ulrich Salchow's development of the Salchow jump in figure skating:

It is often thought that Salchow first performed his famous jump in 1909, but documentary evidence indicates that he was performing it as early as 1900. Plus, the first double Salchows were performed at the 1928 Winter Olympics in St. Moritz, by Gillis Grafstrom of Sweden and Montgomery Wilson of Canada. Thus, Salchow himself apparently never performed more than the single Salchow jump. Salchow is said to have advocated for "a well-balanced free skating program including at least two or three different figures ... as well as up to four different jumps and spins." According to skating historian Benjamin T. Wright, it is ironic that Salchow is mainly remembered for the jump he created. As Wright explained, "Ulrich Salchow was not a good free skater. He was far better at figures. What he was really known for in his day is the Salchow rocker, which is the form of rocker in which you put the foot behind after the turn."

This is fascinating history. I recommend checking out Ryan Stevens' books on Amazon. In Technical Merit, he goes on to discuss the first female skaters to perform a double Salchow and the first known performance of the triple Salchow in the late 1930s at a local Los Angeles competition by Canadian-born Lloyd 'Skippy' Baxter. The triple Salchow was first performed at an ISU championship in 1955 by U.S. skater Ronnie Robertson (at Worlds in Vienna, Austria).

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Plus, I think his costume influenced Nathan Chen.

LOL! Nah, just because Nathan has worn vests or period costumes does not equate to him being influenced by what Salchow wore. That's a huge reach. But you are likely joking. Also, you surely meant to reference 1920, not 2020, in your discussion of Theresa Weld's feats.