What are your thoughts on the depth of Pair Skating?

[Lutzedge]

Throughout the recent years in Pairs skating, we experienced the elite pair teams that held through the top ranks, posting incredible records. Some of those notable pairs were Sui Wenjing / Han Cong, Meagan Duhamel / Eric Radford, Evgenia Tarasova / Vladimir Morozov, and Aliona Savchenko / Bruno Massot. Many of these teams dominated for several years, and even if some such as Savchenko/Massot and Knierim/Frazier may have skated together for not the same length (and when they were paired together, they were exceptional, with the obvious Olympic Gold from Savchenko/Massot), all of these teams and many others would display great dominance in this discipline. We would consistently see some pairs reaching scores upwards of 140 and even going past 150 points numerous times. However, since the Olympics, we have seen many incredible Pair teams retire, and most other teams have not touched those same marks regularly.

Do you think that more teams will reach that same spark soon in the near future? Are there some upcoming teams that you think can reach the same heights/marks as the Olympic medalists have in these past years? Is the scoring just not going the same as the past teams would receive? Because personally, teams in the example of Sui/Han and Savchenko/Massot were so incredibly mind-blowing and have reached a legendary status among the best Pair teams we have ever seen. I am just posing some questions and would love to hear your thoughts!

 

[ladyjane]

I have high hope for Minerva Hasse and Nikita Volodin who haven't been skating that long together, but I wouldn't level out the Japanese either who managed to get 2nd in a World's after a debilitating injury and just half a season. And what about Elisa Efimova and Misha Mitrovanov? Very promising, if only on the international scene this year. And don't forget Deanna and Max, who after one WC won might wish for more and definitely work hard for it. I can think of many lovely pairs (like the Italian Renaissance in the discipline ot Lia and Trennt). Let's not forget about Venessa James and Eric Redford who skated only one season together and still got a World's Gold. They don't skate anymore in WC, but it was still a nice surprise at the time.

True, the points differ from 2018, but even Aljona and Bruno weren't that dominant. It looks like that with a GPF Gold, an Olympic Gold, and a Worlds Gold all in one season, but they didn't skate Euro's, they were second in one of GP's and very lucky to have the FS of their lives at the OG. Sui and Han didn't always win either, and Megan and Eric had their disappointments too. I believe Evgenia and Vladimir never won a WC, even though they had some wonderful skates and did win a GPF aand a Euros. Coming back to the points: scoring was done differently, the 4 and a half minutes in the Free went down to 4, the SBS spins only in the Short, etc., so there were changes on that score as well (pun a bit intended).

In summary: I think the future is just as bright as the past has been, and there will be skates with a spark.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

I do find the inclusion of Knierim/Frazier very interesting - They were beaten by Miura/Kihara at both the GPF and Worlds in 2022/23 and M/K have actually scored above 80 in the Short and 140 in the Free more often than K/F now. This is not to say that K/F weren't a superb team (they were) but I would not put them on the same level as Sui/Han, Duhamel/Radford or Savchenko/Massot.

Also, your post is not so much talking about depth, but about standout teams. The depth is a very different conversation - I'll just say that more teams are attempting triple twists, throws and SBS jumps now than in many previous seasons, and pairs skating is growing again in numbers.

 

[pesto]

Honestly, pairs is the discipline I miss the Russians the most, at the very top level.

But I think, the sport sensed a vacuum, and teams have been striving to fill it. 2022 WC didn't have a full card of entrants (ie, more entrants than free skate places), but the past two years have, and the overall quality is pretty good.

Maybe the next truly great pair is still in development in juniors.

 

[Dawn825]

I think there was a big improvement in depth this past season; there were seven teams in strong contention for the podium at worlds and I was very excited to watch.

 

[FlossieH]

The depth of pairs is fine now. Many smaller feds have more than one senior pair and also multiple junior pairs. The US, China and Canada have more pairs than spaces at events. There was a dip in both participation and standards in pairs during the pandemic when many countries did not allow them to train together (this was slightly easier for ice dancers to overcome because there was more which could be practiced with each partner working separately, e.g. one foot sequences). Participation and standards (with is not the same as depth) are both on the way up again. Some of the current juniors are very promising.

 

[Lutzedge]

I do find the inclusion of Knierim/Frazier very interesting - They were beaten by Miura/Kihara at both the GPF and Worlds in 2022/23 and M/K have actually scored above 80 in the Short and 140 in the Free more often than K/F now. This is not to say that K/F weren't a superb team (they were) but I would not put them on the same level as Sui/Han, Duhamel/Radford or Savchenko/Massot.

Also, your post is not so much talking about depth, but about standout teams. The depth is a very different conversation - I'll just say that more teams are attempting triple twists, throws and SBS jumps now than in many previous seasons, and pairs skating is growing again in numbers.

Knierim and Frazier were not the greatest team we have seen. I was just using them as an example of a strong team that retired. And yes, Miura and Kihira are a very exciting team as well.

The point about "standout" is a valid one. My wording could have been different in this case.

 

[4everchan]

1) points. Don't forget that nixing the BV of the quads is also not helping with points.
2) I agree about K/F. They were great but I wouldn't but them with S/H, D/R and S/M...
3) I agree about the Germans and Italians pushing upwards.
4) Japan is developing its pairs now. China has great junior teams.
5) Many smaller European countries have 1 or 2 pairs now.

I don't think the discipline is even lacking. Yes, after each of the last two Olympics, there was a big hole left by all the teams retiring. This was especially felt after 2022 when China "forgot" to send teams to worlds and ROC (well... we know about that).

But, it was just the normal cycle of figure skating. The field was top heavy with all these teams wanting to have a last chance at gold (both in 2018 and 2022).

I think pairs is incredibly exciting at this point. The top ten is extremely tight and competitive. For instance, some of these teams can win a GP event and end up out of the final flight at worlds etc. I think it's much more fun to watch when it's not already decided ahead of time

Re standout team : I don't know.

I like Deanna and Max : they stand out with her fierceness and his calm strength. They have delivered very high scores btw considering the current COP. I think their DS and Lifts, including the twist are standouts. I guess it doesn't show as much in terms of points or on the list of elements as they are doing different positions and higher difficulty things.... that are not easily seen like a triple lutz or a quad twist/throw would be noticed... So people may not react the same way... but if you look carefully, their lifts are unique and extremely difficult to execute. Yet, most of the times, they are amazingly smooth.

Our Japanese faves are also fun to watch. Again, stand out? Maybe not. What I prefer the most about them is their speed and smooth skating. It doesn't translate easily on the scorecard either.

I like Minerva and Nikita but I find them a bit bland. Lines are wonderful. If they could just bring a bit more dynamism to their skating, it may do the trick.

So yeah... for depth, I think we are in better shape than ever. More countries are able to send strong pairs to worlds.

For stars : I guess we need to wait and see how this cycle turns out. Without their incredible LP that put them from 4 to 1st, if I recall correctly, we wouldn't be saying Savchenko Massot were that standouts.... He was often referred as the "lifting" partner... he didn't transcend much on the ice. They were lucky that all 3 other teams had errors on their LP and that the judges would never have given it to D/R anyways... but indeed, their LP was stellar and they deserved that title hands down.... My point is more about this : when the games happen in 2026, there may be a team among the ones we have on top now, that reaches yet another level. Olympics tend to do that. And then, we will have a different perception of the teams we look at now.

 

[Lutzedge]

I have high hope for Minerva Hasse and Nikita Volodin who haven't been skating that long together, but I wouldn't level out the Japanese either who managed to get 2nd in a World's after a debilitating injury and just half a season. And what about Elisa Efimova and Misha Mitrovanov? Very promising, if only on the international scene this year. And don't forget Deanna and Max, who after one WC won might wish for more and definitely work hard for it. I can think of many lovely pairs (like the Italian Renaissance in the discipline ot Lia and Trennt). Let's not forget about Venessa James and Eric Redford who skated only one season together and still got a World's Gold. They don't skate anymore in WC, but it was still a nice surprise at the time.

True, the points differ from 2018, but even Aljona and Bruno weren't that dominant. It looks like that with a GPF Gold, an Olympic Gold, and a Worlds Gold all in one season, but they didn't skate Euro's, they were second in one of GP's and very lucky to have the FS of their lives at the OG. Sui and Han didn't always win either, and Megan and Eric had their disappointments too. I believe Evgenia and Vladimir never won a WC, even though they had some wonderful skates and did win a GPF aand a Euros. Coming back to the points: scoring was done differently, the 4 and a half minutes in the Free went down to 4, the SBS spins only in the Short, etc., so there were changes on that score as well (pun a bit intended).

In summary: I think the future is just as bright as the past has been, and there will be skates with a spark.

These are strong teams mentioned. But rough competitions at times from Duhumal and Radford, for example, does not take away from the constant records they were setting in Pairs. Since the 2022 Olympics, with the exception of Knierim/Frazier and Miura/Kihira, and occasionally someone such as Stellato/Deschamps, the Pairs are not breaking the scores of 140 points and are not touching the 150 mark. I am using the free skate as an example because there are more elements and the short program scores are usually tighter.

If scores are not a good example, it may be good to say that it is still as strong or so, but that the current Pairs are just not being scored as high. Just something that I thought of.

 

[Lutzedge]

1) points. Don't forget that nixing the BV of the quads is also not helping with points.
2) I agree about K/F. They were great but I wouldn't but them with S/H, D/R and S/M...
3) I agree about the Germans and Italians pushing upwards.
4) Japan is developing its pairs now. China has great junior teams.
5) Many smaller European countries have 1 or 2 pairs now.

I don't think the discipline is even lacking. Yes, after each of the last two Olympics, there was a big hole left by all the teams retiring. This was especially felt after 2022 when China "forgot" to send teams to worlds and ROC (well... we know about that).

But, it was just the normal cycle of figure skating. The field was top heavy with all these teams wanting to have a last chance at gold (both in 2018 and 2022).

I think pairs is incredibly exciting at this point. The top ten is extremely tight and competitive. For instance, some of these teams can win a GP event and end up out of the final flight at worlds etc. I think it's much more fun to watch when it's not already decided ahead of time

Re standout team : I don't know.

I like Deanna and Max : they stand out with her fierceness and his calm strength. They have delivered very high scores btw considering the current COP. I think their DS and Lifts, including the twist are standouts. I guess it doesn't show as much in terms of points or on the list of elements as they are doing different positions and higher difficulty things.... that are not easily seen like a triple lutz or a quad twist/throw would be noticed... So people may not react the same way... but if you look carefully, their lifts are unique and extremely difficult to execute. Yet, most of the times, they are amazingly smooth.

Our Japanese faves are also fun to watch. Again, stand out? Maybe not. What I prefer the most about them is their speed and smooth skating. It doesn't translate easily on the scorecard either.

I like Minerva and Nikita but I find them a bit bland. Lines are wonderful. If they could just bring a bit more dynamism to their skating, it may do the trick.

So yeah... for depth, I think we are in better shape than ever. More countries are able to send strong pairs to worlds.

For stars : I guess we need to wait and see how this cycle turns out. Without their incredible LP that put them from 4 to 1st, if I recall correctly, we wouldn't be saying Savchenko Massot were that standouts.... He was often referred as the "lifting" partner... he didn't transcend much on the ice. They were lucky that all 3 other teams had errors on their LP and that the judges would never have given it to D/R anyways... but indeed, their LP was stellar and they deserved that title hands down.... My point is more about this : when the games happen in 2026, there may be a team among the ones we have on top now, that reaches yet another level. Olympics tend to do that. And then, we will have a different perception of the teams we look at now.

These are excellent points. Well said.

 

[4everchan]

These are strong teams mentioned. But rough competitions at times from Duhumal and Radford, for example, does not take away from the constant records they were setting in Pairs. Since the 2022 Olympics, with the exception of Knierim/Frazier and Miura/Kihira, and occasionally someone such as Stellato/Deschamps, the Pairs are not breaking the scores of 140 points and are not touching the 150 mark. I am using the free skate as an example because there are more elements and the short program scores are usually tighter.

If scores are not a good example, it may be good to say that it is still as strong or so, but that the current Pairs are just not being scored as high. Just something that I thought of.

maybe it would be interesting to look at the BV from before the nixing of elements and lowering of quad base value in the LP....

I think things are less affected in the SP

is the BV of pairs now, much lower or is it the GOE and PCS...

 

[NanaPat]

It's true that BV has been lowered through the elimination of elements and reduced value of quads. However, it has increased a lot through the addion of +2A+2A combinations. Only a few teams do them now (Minerva and partner, Lia and Trennt come immediately to mind), but it gives them an enormous advantage in BV.

More teams may learn to do these combos, or (as I fear) they may be de-valued. I think they add a lot of excitement to the competition!

 

[Lutzedge]

It's true that BV has been lowered through the elimination of elements and reduced value of quads. However, it has increased a lot through the addion of +2A+2A combinations. Only a few teams do them now (Minerva and partner, Lia and Trennt come immediately to mind), but it gives them an enormous advantage in BV.

More teams may learn to do these combos, or (as I fear) they may be de-valued. I think they add a lot of excitement to the competition!

I love the addition of the 2A sequences. It gives the pairs some solid time to prepare for the jumps in the sequences, and when they are done in sync and close together, they look very nice. It also has a solid base value.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

I just went through the years a bit to look at the highest BV at major international competitions each season, so here's a fun look at that:

Season	Highest Base Value SP	Elements	Highest Base Value FS	Elements
2017-18	34.10 Duhamel/Rudford Olympics	3Tw3 3Lz 3LzTh FiDs4 3Li4 PCoSp4 StSq4	66.40 Duhamel/Rudford Olympics	3Tw3 3Lz 4STh 3S+2T+2T FCCoSp4 5RLi4 3LzTh 5ALi4 ChSq1 PCoSp4 3Li4 BoDs3
2018-19	32.70 Cain/Leduc Worlds	3Tw3 3Lo 3LzTh 4Li4 BoDs3 StSq4 CCoSp4	58.30 Mishina/Galliamov CS Alpen Trophy	3Tw3 3LzTh 3S+1Eu+3S 3T 5RLi4 ChSq1 4Li4 5BLi4 3STh BiDs3 PCoSp4
2019-20	33.80 Boikova/Kozlovskii Europeans	3S 3Tw4 3FTh BiDs4 5RLi4 StSq4 FCCoSp4	59.30 Pavliuchenko/Khodykin Europeans	3F 3T+2T+2T 3Tw4 3FTh 5RLi4 FoDs3 ChSq1 3LoTh 5ALi4 4Li4 PCoSp4
2020-21	31.90 Boikova/Kozlovskii Worlds	3S 3Tw4 3FTh FiDs4 3Li4 StSq4 FCCoSp4	60.50 Mishina/Galliamov Worlds	3S+1Eu+3S 3Tw4 3LzTh 5RLi4 3T BoDs4 PCoSp4 5BLi4 3LoTh 4Li4 ChSq1
2021-22	33.40 Cain/Leduc Olympics	3Tw4 3Lo 3LzTh 4Li4 BoDs4 StSq4 CCoSp4	59.70 Mishina/Galliamov Olympics	3S+1Eu+3S 3Tw4 3FTh 5ALi4 3T FiDs3 PCoSp4 ChSq1 5RLi4 3LoTh 3Li4
2022-23	33.30 Miura/Kihara Worlds & Knierim/Frazier Worlds	3Tw2 3T 5ALi4 3LzTh CCoSp4 StSq4 BiDs4 / 3Tw3 3T 3FTh 5ALi4 CCoSp4 StSq4 BiDs3	58.10 Pereira/Michaud Worlds	3Tw3 3T+2A+2A 3S 3LoTh 3Li4 ChSq1 FiDs4 3STh 5ALi4 5RLi4 PCoSp3
2023-24	31.60 Valesi/Piazza GP China & Metelkina/Berulava Worlds	3Tw3 3Sq 3FTh 3Li4 StSq4 FiDSp4 CCoSp4 / 3Tw4 3S 3FTh 3Li4 FCCoSp4 StSq4 FiDs3	61.30 Pavlova/Sviatchenko Worlds	3Tw3 3T+2A+2A 3FTh 3S 5ALi3 ChSq1 3LoTh 5RLi3 4Li4 BoDs3 PCoSp4

And because that's so fun, I've also taken Duhamel/Rudford's FS, removed the additional sbs spin and the BV today would be 61.30, tying Pavlova/Sviatchenko's Worlds FS BV.

On the other hand, the -5/+5 GOE system would theoretically allow teams to achieve higher maximum total GOE scores - Though I'm not sure it does in practice.

 

[Lutzedge]

maybe it would be interesting to look at the BV from before the nixing of elements and lowering of quad base value in the LP....

I think things are less affected in the SP

is the BV of pairs now, much lower or is it the GOE and PCS...

The GOE and PCS are interesting areas to look at, especially the PCS. When looking at the highest scored pairs currently, only Miura/Kihira score more consistently in the very low 70s, at highest. The other pairs tend to score regularly in the middle to high 60s at their highest. Very little are they hitting 70. Even a pair such as Boikova/Kozlovski for example, would score in the early 70s quite often, and they were not a pair that displayed the same level of PCS as other top teams, such as Sui/Han and Tarasova/Morozov as two examples. I would say that there should be more than just one current team deserving the 70 mark for their PCS.

 

[4everchan]

The GOE and PCS are interesting areas to look at, especially the PCS. When looking at the highest scored pairs currently, only Miura/Kihira score more consistently in the very low 70s, at highest. The other pairs tend to score regularly in the middle to high 60s at their highest. Very little are they hitting 70. Even a pair such as Boikova/Kozlovski for example, would score in the early 70s quite often, and they were not a pair that displayed the same level of PCS as other top teams, such as Sui/Han and Tarasova/Morozov as two examples. I would say that there should be more than just one current team deserving the 70 mark for their PCS.

I agree... PCS scores, without being too cynical, tend to rise with longevity. None of the current eligible pairs have been together and around for that long... let me guess their PCS will rise each year until 2026

 

[4everchan]

I just went through the years a bit to look at the highest BV at major international competitions each season, so here's a fun look at that:

Season	Highest Base Value SP	Elements	Highest Base Value FS	Elements
2017-18	34.10 Duhamel/Rudford Olympics	3Tw3 3Lz 3LzTh FiDs4 3Li4 PCoSp4 StSq4	66.40 Duhamel/Rudford Olympics	3Tw3 3Lz 4STh 3S+2T+2T FCCoSp4 5RLi4 3LzTh 5ALi4 ChSq1 PCoSp4 3Li4 BoDs3
2018-19	32.70 Cain/Leduc Worlds	3Tw3 3Lo 3LzTh 4Li4 BoDs3 StSq4 CCoSp4	58.30 Mishina/Galliamov CS Alpen Trophy	3Tw3 3LzTh 3S+1Eu+3S 3T 5RLi4 ChSq1 4Li4 5BLi4 3STh BiDs3 PCoSp4
2019-20	33.80 Boikova/Kozlovskii Europeans	3S 3Tw4 3FTh BiDs4 5RLi4 StSq4 FCCoSp4	59.30 Pavliuchenko/Khodykin Europeans	3F 3T+2T+2T 3Tw4 3FTh 5RLi4 FoDs3 ChSq1 3LoTh 5ALi4 4Li4 PCoSp4
2020-21	31.90 Boikova/Kozlovskii Worlds	3S 3Tw4 3FTh FiDs4 3Li4 StSq4 FCCoSp4	60.50 Mishina/Galliamov Worlds	3S+1Eu+3S 3Tw4 3LzTh 5RLi4 3T BoDs4 PCoSp4 5BLi4 3LoTh 4Li4 ChSq1
2021-22	33.40 Cain/Leduc Olympics	3Tw4 3Lo 3LzTh 4Li4 BoDs4 StSq4 CCoSp4	59.70 Mishina/Galliamov Olympics	3S+1Eu+3S 3Tw4 3FTh 5ALi4 3T FiDs3 PCoSp4 ChSq1 5RLi4 3LoTh 3Li4
2022-23	33.30 Miura/Kihara Worlds & Knierim/Frazier Worlds	3Tw2 3T 5ALi4 3LzTh CCoSp4 StSq4 BiDs4 / 3Tw3 3T 3FTh 5ALi4 CCoSp4 StSq4 BiDs3	58.10 Pereira/Michaud Worlds	3Tw3 3T+2A+2A 3S 3LoTh 3Li4 ChSq1 FiDs4 3STh 5ALi4 5RLi4 PCoSp3
2023-24	31.60 Valesi/Piazza GP China & Metelkina/Berulava Worlds	3Tw3 3Sq 3FTh 3Li4 StSq4 FiDSp4 CCoSp4 / 3Tw4 3S 3FTh 3Li4 FCCoSp4 StSq4 FiDs3	61.30 Pavlova/Sviatchenko Worlds	3Tw3 3T+2A+2A 3FTh 3S 5ALi3 ChSq1 3LoTh 5RLi3 4Li4 BoDs3 PCoSp4

And because that's so fun, I've also taken Duhamel/Rudford's FS, removed the additional sbs spin and the BV today would be 61.30, tying Pavlova/Sviatchenko's Worlds FS BV.

On the other hand, the -5/+5 GOE system would theoretically allow teams to achieve higher maximum total GOE scores - Though I'm not sure it does in practice.

Thank you! I had a hunch about this... and it seems to be confirmed that removing the spins from the LP and also the lack of incentive for quads has lowered drastically the ceiling for scores.

I also think that even the best jumpers like Trennt and Lia (well... usually) do not get a huge GOE reward for their 3t-2a-2a, even when they do them almost flawlessly.

I could be wrong but my hunch would be that GOE on throws and jumps are not as high as it used to be... but I would think that GOE on lifts with best teams can reach the +4 and +5

 

[Lutzedge]

Thank you! I had a hunch about this... and it seems to be confirmed that removing the spins from the LP and also the lack of incentive for quads has lowered drastically the ceiling for scores.

I also think that even the best jumpers like Trennt and Lia (well... usually) do not get a huge GOE reward for their 3t-2a-2a, even when they do them almost flawlessly.

I could be wrong but my hunch would be that GOE on throws and jumps are not as high as it used to be... but I would think that GOE on lifts with best teams can reach the +4 and +5

I agree here with the tech as well. Some pairs do excellent jumps when landed and their throws can be nice as well, but they do not receive the marks they should receive. Similar to the lifts as well. As much as Nationals tend to overscore, at times I do agree with the judges GOEs on some elements there, the pairs lifts for example.

 

[Lutzedge]

Something that may be interesting to do is go to https://skatingscores.com/ and to rescore a skater/pair's GOE and PCS marks. It may take a little bit of time, but I find it fun to do from time to time.

 

[RobinA]

Throughout the recent years in Pairs skating, we experienced the elite pair teams that held through the top ranks, posting incredible records. Some of those notable pairs were Sui Wenjing / Han Cong, Meagan Duhamel / Eric Radford, Evgenia Tarasova / Vladimir Morozov, and Aliona Savchenko / Bruno Massot. Many of these teams dominated for several years, and even if some such as Savchenko/Massot and Knierim/Frazier may have skated together for not the same length (and when they were paired together, they were exceptional, with the obvious Olympic Gold from Savchenko/Massot), all of these teams and many others would display great dominance in this discipline. We would consistently see some pairs reaching scores upwards of 140 and even going past 150 points numerous times. However, since the Olympics, we have seen many incredible Pair teams retire, and most other teams have not touched those same marks regularly.

Do you think that more teams will reach that same spark soon in the near future? Are there some upcoming teams that you think can reach the same heights/marks as the Olympic medalists have in these past years? Is the scoring just not going the same as the past teams would receive? Because personally, teams in the example of Sui/Han and Savchenko/Massot were so incredibly mind-blowing and have reached a legendary status among the best Pair teams we have ever seen. I am just posing some questions and would love to hear your thoughts!

My thoughts on the depth of Pairs skating at this moment is that there is none. Pairs used to be my favorite discipline, but at this point I barely watch it. It all pretty much looks that same right down to the frequently botched triples. I'm not saying that no current Pair is ever any good, I just think that there are too many required elements leading to a total lack of any artistic vision, most pairs cannot reliably do side by side triples, and too many of the lifts are just plain fugly.