Ivan Desyatov suspended by SafeSport | Page 8 | Golden Skate

Ivan Desyatov suspended by SafeSport

Years ago a young coach at the club I was with then almost had his career blighted when a teenage girl pupil complained to the club president that he'd "touched her too much in the wrong places". Fortunately her mother overheard her laughing on the phone to a friend, bragging that she'd "fixed him" for reprimanding her about showing up late for lessons and then being bratty and lazy, something which many adult skaters there had observed about her themselves. Her mother got the truth out of her and then apologized to the coach (a very nice young man) and the executive because her daughter had lied, and the matter was dropped. The kid dropped out of skating because her own friends at the club took the coach's side and she was ostracized.
I can tell that kids can have stupid ideas entering certain age, I already dealt with some minor incidents. As a survivor and mom of a soon to be teenager, I went to his teachers and trainers and told them that I want to be informed imediately if he shows any signs that he could be inapropriate with any boy or girl so I could react. Yes, I still have ongoing issues with my own trauma and this was "only" inapropriate and unwanted touch - after well over 25 years and I somewhat am a control freak over this. But I have reasons. The boy who assaulted me was 13 and wasn't bad person, I knew him for a long time before and we were friends. But at some point his life got messed - his dad passed away in an accident and his mom couldn't handle 3 teenage boys herself. I think noone ever told him about personal boundaries or sexuality and that his needs or frustration can't be relieved by assaulting another person. It is possible that my mom, whom I told about the situation, was the first person to speak to him about this topics. I don't know what she told him, but he never came near me after this. There was no legal action, it was long ago in a country that only now starts to treat this type of cases with care so that victim isn't harmed more by investigation than by the assault itself (I'm lawyer, trust me I know something about it). I don't know what would happen to me if my boy did something like this to another person. I also don't want my boy's life to be destroyed because of this kind of behaviour. But kids are kids, you can talk to them and explain, they still can do stupid things and they won't think or understand the impact of their doing or think that they can be exused because of whatever. I would probably be like this mother you described if my son did something wrong, but I also know a mother whos son attacked almost every of his classmates, including trying to choke a girl and bragged that he won't face any cosnequences. She reacted only when we told her that if his behaviour doesn't change, we will inform the wellfare care and they could bring her to the court and she could loose custody over her child. Before this she argued that her son can't be agressive and that he is a victim because he is from another country and even tried to threaten us calling the police to the school. So what I want to say is that these cases have to be handled with utmost care and at the same time I believe that telling lies will be discovered sooner or later. If Desyatov's case is ongoing since December 23, it's possible that they have strong eveidence against him. BTW Bella removed comments from her SM.
 
That requires money and political will. In the absence of both, the problem everywhere is the balancing of the rights of the accused with the need to protect the unquestionably innocent and often vulnerable. After all an employer can fire someone sexually or racially harassing other staff without having to prove it in a court of law (unless the employee sues, and even then as I understand it civil law everywhere is based on probability, not nearly as high a benchmark as criminal.)

And we along with most Western nations also have that 'innocent until proven guilty' thing (which I think sometimes your country forgets, I have heard commentators saying the US is the only one who does when you didn't even invent it :scratch2:) so I and most folk here are at all not ignorant of it. But people are also arrested and held pending trial - which can take months or even years - for serious crimes, yes? Again, need for balance in an imperfect system, which will never not be imperfect because it deals with people. And people will never be anywhere near that which is why the cliche 'court of public' opinion doesn't and cannot ever be expected to hold to judicial standards.
TBH I worked on cases when fired women (on purely substantive grounds) sued us (my employer) and tried to prove that they were subjects of various types of misconduct. None of them won, although their cases could look strong if described by them to a person who didn't know the whole picture (for example yes: she got scolded, yes, her boss told her some harsh things and maybe even yelled at her but it was because it was one of another time when she wasn't doing her job properly, ignoring previous talks and warnings, so her boss lost it because this time her mistakes had consequences for the company). I also defended my employer in countless personal rights cases that initially looked bad (because journalists I work with are kinda dumb and write things without consideration) but turned out well.
That's why we go to court where both parties are heard and the judge isn't biased like we here (some are F/D fans, some are survivors etc.). And yes, court cases can take looooong time and in criminal cases there is an investigation befor case is brought to the court.
 
As a lawyer you probably know more about judges than us, but at least in Germany judges are now reported to be very biased against women in cases of sexual violence. Even when rape is proven beyond doubt, or if it is a clear femizide, perps get off with ridiculously short prison sentences, it's treated not as murder but as manslaughter etc. The whole judicial system is stuck in the 1950s when it comes to sexual violence.

But I agree, without proof, everything here is speculation.
 
As a lawyer you probably know more about judges than us, but at least in Germany judges are now reported to be very biased against women in cases of sexual violence. Even when rape is proven beyond doubt, or if it is a clear femizide, perps get off with ridiculously short prison sentences, it's treated not as murder but as manslaughter etc. The whole judicial system is stuck in the 1950s when it comes to sexual violence.

But I agree, without proof, everything here is speculation.
My personal case wasn't brought to court because of this and change in PL is very slow. But we must remember that judges don't take sides - when we hear about a case, we probably hear about it from the victim's pov, so we side with them (just like people sided with Bella when Tsarevski went missing). It's only natural when you can relate to the victim, but 2 days ago was anniversary of Anna Halman's suicide. You can read about it in German https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suizidfall_Ania_in_Danzig, I don't have enough willpower to write about the details without getting sick, but there was strong support to Anna's abusers and some claimed they could behave the way they did, it was on Anna that she had exaggerated reaction.
The judge hears both sides and has to decide who is telling the truth. It isn't easy - I used to work with criminal judges, they aren't bad or indifferent. They have to consider that both sides can tell lies and asks questions that are painful to the victim to determine the truth because there is no other way. TBH rape without witness and immediate medical examination is very hard to prove. Yes, how these cases are handled sucks. Yes, it's wrong that proven without doubt, the punishment it so moderate. I think sexual violence is still considered not that serious and there still is permission for abusers to act like this. In PL things are getting better but still slowly.
 
When was the last time Dave Lease was wrong about accusations? He has a strong and trustworthy track record when it comes to these investigations, particularly the last few years.

Unfortunately, disliking TSL is not a personality type.
This could be confirmation bias. You're more likely to remember the times he's happened to be right than when he's been incorrect
 
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The judge hears both sides and has to decide who is telling the truth. It isn't easy - I used to work with criminal judges, they aren't bad or indifferent.
You're right that we often hear more of one side of a story, but history has shown us that some judges are very much capable of bias and having outdated views. To the point of misconduct and miscarriages of justice. They're human and capable of being bad and indifferent too.
 
At this point I think that ISU should shut down Ice Dance competitions for the remainder of the Grand Prix portion of season. In the space of a few weeks we had two suspensions and several credible accusations of one member abusing his current or former partner and lord knows what else is going come up. I just want make sure that no one is at risk of getting hurt and a lot of these issues are extremely serious and need be addressed with out the pressure of replacing couples when new accusations come up and allow enough time tor countries to do proper investigations . Because this is not normal and it needs to be addressed now before someone gets hurt.
How ridiculous. If we did this everytime an allegation of abuse came out then all public life would grind to halt. This is not an issue isolated to ice dance.
 
You're right that we often hear more of one side of a story, but history has shown us that some judges are very much capable of bias and having outdated views. To the point of misconduct and miscarriages of justice. They're human and capable of being bad and indifferent too.
I don't know about other countries but in PL you became judge not because someone thinks that you are worthy but because you decided it's suitable careerpath for you and you were intelligent and hardworking enough to pass many exams. Moral qualities aren't really assesed because there are no means to do it. So yes, they are human, they can have not the best moral qualities. We developed whole complicated system to control the rulings and that's best thing we can come up for now.
TBH I met biased judge only once, I appealed and we'll see. My clients sometimes tell me that the judge was biased and ruled against them, then I look into the case and this "bias" occurs to be simply ruling agains client's wishes because the client was wrong - it's also my job to tell the client when they are wrong. I've seen attorneys dragging clients into long and costly trials, that shouldn't be because they will loose. Even now I'm writing a replica to nonsensical lawsuit (and discuss thing here because I need a breake after reading it). Most people can't admit they are wrong and will accuse others of being unfair.
Miscarriage of justice doesn't occur often and I don't think anyone who doesn't know the case can and should discuss the ruling.
 
Surely if there were similar allegations against him, there would be some sort of report of it somewhere and he would be suspended at this point?
I doubt that there will be any reports published in the case of an ongoing investigation and any provisional measures in place will not be made public. The allegations are not publicly known, so they may not require the temporary suspension as in the case of Desyatov.

There probably won't be any information known about the case unless he is found to be in violation and sanctions are put in place.
 
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Surely if there were similar allegations against him, there would be some sort of report of it somewhere and he would be suspended at this point?
There is no reason to make anything public until there is reason to take action against the person. If allegations are made public, reputation of the person is damaged and it won't matter if they are cleared of charges. I myself recently wondered why they are intervieweg certain person (not connected to FS) because I remebered allegations about them. I didn't remember that they were cleared of charges and felt really dumb when I checked it. You know, it works both ways, not all accused are guilty.
 
There is an article that was posted by the Russian tabloid Sport Express that states Desyatov had sexual contact with an underage girl, but this was based on unreliable sources.
 
So the authorities pursuing this case are in Croatia? I wonder how hard they are working on this case, considering the accuser is French but skates for Estonia, and the accused is Russian and skates for the USA and it happened while they were visiting Croatia for a skating competition. Doesn't sound like it would be a top priority for them since no Croatian is involved. IMO. Plus it's a year later, and a he said/she said case under the best circumstances are hard to prosecute. I also don't know how women are treated in Croatia and what their statistics on prosecuting sex crimes against women are. It might be bleak.

It now makes more sense to me how this whole thing could have happened. I couldn't imagine Desyatov sexually assaulting an American on American soil, considering his potential citizenship is at stake. He possibly had the mindset "What happens in Croatia, stays in Croatia". No, buddy. That's not how rape works. FAFO.

I was reading a few weeks ago about the Estonian skater who came out and told her story about sexual abuse. I figured it was someone in Estonia. It's strange how this all ties in together.
 
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So the authorities pursuing this case are in Croatia? I wonder how hard they are working on this case, considering the accuser is French but skates for Estonia, and the accused is Russian and skates for the USA and it happened while they were visiting Croatia for a skating competition. Doesn't sound like it would be a top priority for them since no Croatian is involved. IMO. Plus it's a year later, and a he said/she said case under the best circumstances are hard to prosecute. I also don't know how women are treated in Croatia and what their statistics on prosecuting sex crimes against women are. It might be bleak.

It now makes more sense to me how this whole thing could have happened. I couldn't imagine Desyatov sexually assaulting an American on American soil, considering his potential citizenship is at stake. He possibly had the mindset "What happens in Croatia, stays in Croatia". No, buddy. That's not how rape works. FAFO.

I was reading a few weeks ago about the Estonian skater who came out and told her story about sexual abuse. I figured it was someone in Estonia. It's strange how this all ties in together.
The nationality of suspect and victim doesn't matter, there is no law saying that only the citizen's cases are investigated or that non-citizens get lesser priority. If the act happened in a country where it is penalized, it will be investigated and judged according to its laws. There is probably an agreement that allows croatian authorities to ask US authorities to help them with the investigation and later demand extradition. Sometimes ot is also possible conduct all the legal proceedings, including the sentencing and executing the punishment, in another country, but this is not my area of expertise and I only vaguely remeber that I had to learn about it during my studies.
One thing is sure - the case is big and public, so the authorities won't be able shove it away and it will probably be made a PR case. You are correct, sexuall violence cases are difficult, but it isn't disclosed what kind of evidence was collected.
 
So the authorities pursuing this case are in Croatia? I wonder how hard they are working on this case, considering the accuser is French but skates for Estonia, and the accused is Russian and skates for the USA and it happened while they were visiting Croatia for a skating competition. Doesn't sound like it would be a top priority for them since no Croatian is involved. IMO. Plus it's a year later, and a he said/she said case under the best circumstances are hard to prosecute. I also don't know how women are treated in Croatia and what their statistics on prosecuting sex crimes against women are. It might be bleak.

It now makes more sense to me how this whole thing could have happened. I couldn't imagine Desyatov sexually assaulting an American on American soil, considering his potential citizenship is at stake. He possibly had the mindset "What happens in Croatia, stays in Croatia". No, buddy. That's not how rape works. FAFO.

I was reading a few weeks ago about the Estonian skater who came out and told her story about sexual abuse. I figured it was someone in Estonia. It's strange how this all ties in together.

Is very strange the facts a French skater that compete in Estonia and facts happened in Croatia according with European laws crimes can be chased from any country of Europe and ask to America their extradition if case that Estonia send a red alert to EUROPOL (INTERPOL) , is serious that accusation and i think we must wait the result of investigation and due process for give a opinion with the facts checked.

for sure it will have consequences respect his American citizenship.
 
There is a difference between 'valid questioning and concerns' and salacious scandal-mongering, and we have seen both on this thread. The facts are bad enough, but making up a whole penny dreadful of additional melodrama is not needed or helpful.

Yes, and I would assume most people here are intelligent enough to throw out posts demanding an immediate suspension, indictment, conviction, or include childish hysteria. It's not unreasonable, however, to question motivations or have eyebrows raised as some people have stated. Lumping everyone together isn't helpful either.

This could be confirmation bias. You're more likely to remember the times he's happened to be right than when he's been incorrect

I've been following TSL for years and he's yet to break accusations of abuse or suspensions that turn out to be incorrect. Not once. Surely since some people agree with you--would anyone mind sharing those incorrect times? You bring up confirmation bias, but people who say they don't give TSL any clicks or attention somehow magically know about everything they post and agree that they know the percentage of wrong/correct statements sway one way and not the other? How? That's a prime example of confirmation bias.

Have they made incorrect predictions of podiums and comebacks, needless drama, snarky, mean, and inappropriate posts? Absolutely. An inability to separate that from his reported accusations (which are prone to lawsuits which never materialize because... they always turn out to be correct) is a critical thinking issue. Take the good, and leave the rest.

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In related news that wasn't broken by TSL, Neset and Markelov from WASA were secretly married almost 2 years before their public ceremony and just 2 days after she turned 17. They had to head down to New Mexico for the marriage license since marriage laws with minors are more lax there than Colorado. Nothing to see here tho.
 
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Miscarriage of justice doesn't occur often and I don't think anyone who doesn't know the case can and should discuss the ruling.
I respect your legal expertise and experience. However, this is a general observation that can not be stated with accuracy unless you cite irrefutable studies and the parameters of those studies. While I can't quantify numerically, surely we are all aware of reported legal cases in which either blatant or procedural miscarriages of justice have been proven, and the falsely accused have been released after years of incarceration! It is best not to generalize regarding 'how often' miscarriages of justice may or may not occur without qualifying with specific studies, globally, nationally, regionally (and if civil or criminal, etc).
 
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