- Joined
- Jan 31, 2019
Even simpler, you like it or you don't like it. People who start some pseudo high-brow explanations why one skater is superior to another lie through their teeth.
Is Grand Prix series ready to downsize to 5 events?
- Thread starter lariko
- Start date
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Indeed.
But I wouldn't be so harsh as to use the word "lie" when what we are talking about is, you like this, I like that. Or to try to extrapolate from our preferences to "what normal people like."
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2019
I am tired of all the lies that surround figure skating. By everyone.Indeed.
But I wouldn't be so harsh as to use the word "lie" when what we are talking about is, you like this, I like that. Or to try to extrapolate from our preferences to "what normal people like."
If the purpose is to entertain audiences -- i.e., the purpose of skating shows of all kinds -- then anything that's entertaining is valuable and anything that the show audiences would perceive as dead time would be less valuable.
Exciting skating skills especially jumps, spins, lifts, other pair moves; creative use of props and costumes; creative use of the body on the ice in ways that don't necessarily rely on the use of blades; physical comedy on ice; exciting acrobatic or other skills performed by experts in those areas who are able to execute them while wearing skates on ice; charismatic performers interacting with the music and the audience; compelling storylines and acting... All of the above can make for entertaining shows.
The main purpose of Olympic-style competition is to determine the best skater -- who has the best mastery of the full range of skating technique, and performance qualities using those techniques.
It so happens that competitive skating programs can also be entertaining to watch -- and the general trend over the past century of skating history has been to become more so. Some decisions, most notably the elimination of school figures, have been driven in large part by what is or isn't satisfying to audiences. But skating competition itself is not primarily about entertaining audiences -- it's about rewarding skill and determining winners based on skill mastery.
Even if you got rid of decisions by officials who are not current competitors and let the skaters themselves decide what should be rewarded in competition, they might disagree with each other on what should be most important, but they would include skills that they trained hard to master and that may not be obvious to nonskaters.
Some of the skills and qualities that the skating community values are easily appreciated as entertaining by casual viewers. Viewers can enjoy watching spectacular jumps, spins, pair lifts, etc., and also enjoy the performance qualities of the more musical and charismatic skaters.
Some skills, enthusiastic fans can easily learn to appreciate, especially with help from commentators. Especially jumps.
To the extent that jumps make up the most obvious and most objectively scored success, dedicated fans who learn to understand jumps will often understand the results of singles competitions much better than casual viewers to whom all jumps look the same aside from blatant errors such as falls.
The other skills can be harder for nonskaters to appreciate, especially when watching on video rather than live and especially if commentators make no effort to discuss them.
Fans have to be super-dedicated to educate themselves about these other kinds of skills. Most will not. Casual viewers certainly will not.
If the ISU wants fans to have a better understanding of results, they need to do a better job of educating viewers about skating technique and scoring.
Or they could make it clear that the best way to understand competitive results is to learn to skate yourself, or at least to spend time in rinks watching skaters of various skill levels, not just the top stars.
To appeal to fans who just want to be entertained and see their favorites win, maybe there could be a separate award for most entertaining performances. To be voted on by fans? And to the extent that many fans are most entertained by successful jumps, the most successful jumpers may end up winning that award as well as winning or placing in high in the officially judged skill-based contest.
Exciting skating skills especially jumps, spins, lifts, other pair moves; creative use of props and costumes; creative use of the body on the ice in ways that don't necessarily rely on the use of blades; physical comedy on ice; exciting acrobatic or other skills performed by experts in those areas who are able to execute them while wearing skates on ice; charismatic performers interacting with the music and the audience; compelling storylines and acting... All of the above can make for entertaining shows.
The main purpose of Olympic-style competition is to determine the best skater -- who has the best mastery of the full range of skating technique, and performance qualities using those techniques.
It so happens that competitive skating programs can also be entertaining to watch -- and the general trend over the past century of skating history has been to become more so. Some decisions, most notably the elimination of school figures, have been driven in large part by what is or isn't satisfying to audiences. But skating competition itself is not primarily about entertaining audiences -- it's about rewarding skill and determining winners based on skill mastery.
Even if you got rid of decisions by officials who are not current competitors and let the skaters themselves decide what should be rewarded in competition, they might disagree with each other on what should be most important, but they would include skills that they trained hard to master and that may not be obvious to nonskaters.
Some of the skills and qualities that the skating community values are easily appreciated as entertaining by casual viewers. Viewers can enjoy watching spectacular jumps, spins, pair lifts, etc., and also enjoy the performance qualities of the more musical and charismatic skaters.
Some skills, enthusiastic fans can easily learn to appreciate, especially with help from commentators. Especially jumps.
To the extent that jumps make up the most obvious and most objectively scored success, dedicated fans who learn to understand jumps will often understand the results of singles competitions much better than casual viewers to whom all jumps look the same aside from blatant errors such as falls.
The other skills can be harder for nonskaters to appreciate, especially when watching on video rather than live and especially if commentators make no effort to discuss them.
Fans have to be super-dedicated to educate themselves about these other kinds of skills. Most will not. Casual viewers certainly will not.
If the ISU wants fans to have a better understanding of results, they need to do a better job of educating viewers about skating technique and scoring.
Or they could make it clear that the best way to understand competitive results is to learn to skate yourself, or at least to spend time in rinks watching skaters of various skill levels, not just the top stars.
To appeal to fans who just want to be entertained and see their favorites win, maybe there could be a separate award for most entertaining performances. To be voted on by fans? And to the extent that many fans are most entertained by successful jumps, the most successful jumpers may end up winning that award as well as winning or placing in high in the officially judged skill-based contest.
- Joined
- May 15, 2024
I don't know, I consider myself very normal
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2014
I am too.
The lies that if I find jumping exciting, everyone must find jumping exciting. Or that if I find spins and step sequences exciting, everyone must find them exciting. The pseudo high brow explanation that jumping, and only jumping, is athletic. Or that any other element, taken in isolation, is what constitutes "exciting" figure skating.
The lies that if I find a certain skater boring or overrated, everyone must find that skater overrated or boring.
The lies that "normal people" are those who love what I love.
I am tired of the lies.
And to bring it back on topic, I think if anything the GP should expand. In my experience, "normal" people like to see skaters from their own country (and want to see them do well). An expanded GP could accomplish that.
Yeah, right. For my fellow members who want to see the legs "most people don't even see" are timestamped. Hit play.
NBC WILL SKATE RINGS FOR OLYMPIC RATINGS
Jan. 24, 2002, 5:00 a.m. ET
Skating means ratings – and that’s why figure skating will dominate TV coverage of the 2002 Winter Olympics.
NBC revealed its extensive broadcast schedule for the Winter Games yesterday, and it’s top heavy with crowd-pleasing figure-skating contests.
The 375 hours of coverage will be divided among NBC’s three networks: NBC-TV and cable outlets MSNBC and CNBC.
But NBC, the network that reaches the most viewers, will air all the figure-skating events
They grab huge ratings, thanks to the high drama and the competitors’ sexy, stylish routines.
Source: https://nypost.com/2002/01/24/nbc-will-skate-rings-for-olympic-ratings/
WAIT, WHERE WERE ALL THE QUADS BACK THEN WHEN SKATING HAD THE RATINGS?
The 375 hours of coverage will be divided among NBC’s three networks: NBC-TV and cable outlets MSNBC and CNBC.
But NBC, the network that reaches the most viewers, will air all the figure-skating events
They grab huge ratings, thanks to the high drama and the competitors’ sexy, stylish routines.
Source: https://nypost.com/2002/01/24/nbc-will-skate-rings-for-olympic-ratings/
WAIT, WHERE WERE ALL THE QUADS BACK THEN WHEN SKATING HAD THE RATINGS?
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2007
Everybody has right to like what they like. It is human and normal people like different kind of things. And this discussion could be closed, nothing new is told any more. @GS Forum Staff
Someone doesn't like what another person is saying, so close the thread? I see no point in a discussion forum if people are not free to disagree. Learning can take place far easier where individuals disagree than in an echo chamber. It puts a spotlight on what is being misunderstood.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
The interesting thing about Yagidin's famous Winter footwork sequence is that, as entertaining as it is, it was really quite primitive in terms of actual skating moves. Those Sonja Henie "dancing on the toe-pick" steps delighted audiences in the 1930s, and Morosov was clever enough to bring it back decades later. 
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2022
Well, but Yagudin made it work. I love that program. His jumps were also great, but that is not why people dig out the program again and again.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Here's Sonja.
This program also featured a (single) Lutz in the opposite direction (opening element) and a bunch of crowd-pleasing spins, ending with a Charlotte spiral -- done the classical way as a bowing-off-the-stage move.
After Yagudin's triumph at the 2002 Olympics, skaters rushed to Morozov to gve them a step equence like that. Here is what he came up with for Michelle Kwan (2003 worlds). Well, Dick Button loved it, anyway.
www.youtube.com
This program also featured a (single) Lutz in the opposite direction (opening element) and a bunch of crowd-pleasing spins, ending with a Charlotte spiral -- done the classical way as a bowing-off-the-stage move.
After Yagudin's triumph at the 2002 Olympics, skaters rushed to Morozov to gve them a step equence like that. Here is what he came up with for Michelle Kwan (2003 worlds). Well, Dick Button loved it, anyway.
- YouTube
Auf YouTube findest du die angesagtesten Videos und Tracks. Außerdem kannst du eigene Inhalte hochladen und mit Freunden oder gleich der ganzen Welt teilen.
www.youtube.com
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When I became a figure skating fan as a teenager, I did not become a fan because of Plushenko's amazing jumps, but because of Yagudin's step sequences. Same for a friend of mine. We would rewind because of the step sequences again and again. Not because of the quads.
True, but just a few days ago I watched the 2010 Olympics and the crowds went nuts during Takahashi's step sequences.
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2020
Off topic, but I admit I found the description of what constitutes a "normal" person proposed by the OP quite strikingly unappealing. This part in particular made me curious: "Normal people are not musical and don't know how to dance", so I've done a little research and found it completely untrue. Here's what researchers say:
"Recent findings suggest that music automatically activates regions of the brain involved in starting the movements necessary to sing and dance. If an individual stands completely still while listening to music, functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) scanning will show that his motor cortex is activated, although the individual is not in motion. Thus, from an evolutionary point of view, it is possible that dance and music appeared together. In fact, they coexist in most human cultures and possibly are innate. According to a recent study carried on about 120 infants (aged 5–24 months), babies spontaneously ‘danced’ in response to all different types of music"....
and many others...
Personally I do really believe that music and dance is more universal than any language in communicating both beauty and human emotions, most simple and most complex, and we are all equipped to "get" it. Which would also explain why those "most musical" skaters easily find a way to the audience's hearts. Quite happy to find the current research agrees....
"Recent findings suggest that music automatically activates regions of the brain involved in starting the movements necessary to sing and dance. If an individual stands completely still while listening to music, functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) scanning will show that his motor cortex is activated, although the individual is not in motion. Thus, from an evolutionary point of view, it is possible that dance and music appeared together. In fact, they coexist in most human cultures and possibly are innate. According to a recent study carried on about 120 infants (aged 5–24 months), babies spontaneously ‘danced’ in response to all different types of music"....
and many others...
Personally I do really believe that music and dance is more universal than any language in communicating both beauty and human emotions, most simple and most complex, and we are all equipped to "get" it. Which would also explain why those "most musical" skaters easily find a way to the audience's hearts. Quite happy to find the current research agrees....
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2007
Just telling what YOU must like and not like. But Ignore button is my friend.
- Joined
- May 15, 2024
I find this thread very interesting. Comparing the data about viewership shows that the "golden era" wasn't golden at all. Funnily enough, it's consistent with my own reception of FS. And if anyone thinks FS isn't athletic besides jumps - go to the icerink, try to do a swizzle - those who can do a decent swizzle and maybe crossovers and basic turns won't say anything that stupid.
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2022
Daisuke should have won the 2010s Olympics, just saying. 
I also find the idea that most humans aren't into music and don't respond with wanting to sing/dance absolutely wild.
OP once said they became a FS fan afterwatching Shoma I believe? One of the most musical skaters of all time, who lives and breathes the music with his whole body and who said he doesn't really like jumping all that much?
I also find the idea that most humans aren't into music and don't respond with wanting to sing/dance absolutely wild.
OP once said they became a FS fan afterwatching Shoma I believe? One of the most musical skaters of all time, who lives and breathes the music with his whole body and who said he doesn't really like jumping all that much?
to come back to the topic of Grand Prix. I would like to see it as a real league with 36 skaters in 9 events. But ISU would need major sponsors for such a league, One problem is that competitive figure skating is very unattractive to the majority of people. One exampe: there have been very few spectator at Nebelhorntrophy but the ice show organized by Daniel Weiss at the same rink, with only some high class skater with much higher entrance fees is very well sold. I think neather more Ultra-Cs nor the deepest edge brings more people to watch competitive figure skating - most people don't see the differences, they want to be entertained and see an exciting competition. When I talk to people I get the feedback that the pause between two skaters is way to long, it is boring and than nobody understands the scores.So many sports are supported by technology, a "premier league" in figure skating could be the change to introduce technology to speed up the result finding and make it more transparent to the spectators. Another problem to find sponsors is the bad reputation of figure skating with all this cases of abuse, btw Figure Skating mum is a swear wort in Germany.
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2019
What everyone is sensitive to is to rhythm. And, yes, we would move to rhythm, but far fewer are musical. Actual musicality and ability to read music, reproduce music by ear, play musical instrument and dance the way skaters dance is very rare. Even when both were required and trained social skills of the nobility, very low number could do either successfully enough to be sought after. In modern world, lower percentage is scowled in either music or dance and it quickly becomes apparent how few kids put in all those 'ballet' and Yamaha classes can actually continue. And the schooling is necessary to understand what skaters are actually doing and if they move to music or not. Unless you have innate ability, good luck with doing either music or dance. All skaters,even those dabbed not musical operate on a completely different level than a normal person.Off topic, but I admit I found the description of what constitutes a "normal" person proposed by the OP quite strikingly unappealing. This part in particular made me curious: "Normal people are not musical and don't know how to dance", so I've done a little research and found it completely untrue. Here's what researchers say:
"Recent findings suggest that music automatically activates regions of the brain involved in starting the movements necessary to sing and dance. If an individual stands completely still while listening to music, functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) scanning will show that his motor cortex is activated, although the individual is not in motion. Thus, from an evolutionary point of view, it is possible that dance and music appeared together. In fact, they coexist in most human cultures and possibly are innate. According to a recent study carried on about 120 infants (aged 5–24 months), babies spontaneously ‘danced’ in response to all different types of music"....
and many others...
Personally I do really believe that music and dance is more universal than any language in communicating both beauty and human emotions, most simple and most complex, and we are all equipped to "get" it. Which would also explain why those "most musical" skaters easily find a way to the audience's hearts. Quite happy to find the current research agrees....
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2019
Uno and Zagitova, and both delivered everything in spades in 2018. So did other skaters I admired. If the competition still included at least 8 likes of Uno in their skillset, and if senior women included 8 with Amber Glenn's skillset, I would be devouring 6 stages of GP. The problem is, there is only one Malinin and only one Glenn and not enough up and coming skaters for 6 stages to be interesting and competitive.
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