Feedback on the development of ice dance?

[Flying Feijoa]

I do not expect any panacea either. I'm just saying that dance patters are capable to bring the social media excitement desired (if it is) no less than any 'dreadful disco' hand moves. I did not say that it's a magic wand; rather, I kind of implied that it might require hard work that might require developing new or varied dance patterns and promoting them.

Sounds like the OSP! See below:

When the Original Set Pattern competition phase was introduced in the late 1960s, part of its intention was not only to allow skaters to show creativity and showcase their own best skills by choreographing their own patterns, but also to come up with new set patterns that could be used for social dance sessions and for some to be adapted as standard pattern dances for competitions (and tests, in federations that hold tests).

I like the concept behind the OSP. I'm not sure about the logistics of how it might be integrated into competition nowadays, but it must be a special feeling for a team and their coaches/choreographers to have their new pattern deemed a legacy worthy of wider circulation.

 

[Anna K.]

I'm not sure about the logistics of how it [OSP] might be integrated into competition nowadays, but it must be a special feeling for a team and their coaches/choreographers to have their new pattern deemed a legacy worthy of wider circulation.

I vote for an international open-admission contest! It should be held as a specific ISU live-streamed competition/contest at the end of the season or, if it's too late, at another time, i.e. by Christmas or New Year. The voluntary teams should there demonstrate the patters they have developed (retired teams that work as choreographers like Papadakis/Cizeron, Torvill/Dean should also - no, not 'also' but in the first place! - participate). They should skate same pattern several times with different music to demonstrate its compatibility and the range of availability music. Then, the teams should wait in the Green Room and chat with the press until the winner in announced... That would be so fun!

 

[Anna K.]

Ice dancing started out as a social activity before it was a competitive activity. Multiple couples would skate the same dance at the same time, often starting from opposite ends of the ice (for patterns that go halfway around the ice) and/or offset a one team few measuresbehind the one in front.

I would happily see it coming back as social gatherings or as non-Olympic "dance off" competitions when several teams are skating side-by-side.
The number of ice dance participants is growing rapidly; specific dance-only competitions are held already. It wouldn't be that much trouble to add another, non-Olympic, discipline that would serve well for fun and training. Or, the solo dance is also developing. Such gatherings could be tied to that (single skaters trying easier steps together and switching partners).

For diehard fans who are willing to go beyond the broadcasts to look at rulebooks and protocols, perhaps the ISU could also produce video segments aimed at fan education and make them available on the ISU website and/or on youtube.

Thus far, ISU has shown commitment to posting informative and educational videos on YouTube. The only problem is that ISU seems to have lost their confidence in pattern dance and/or pattern dance doesn't have a strong lobby within the dance community. I think ISU lost their confidence in pattern dance way too early though. It certainly does have a space for development.

 

[gkelly]

I noticed compulsory segments at some recent ISU competitions below the junior/senior levels, though I don't know about the details of the requirements or categories (maybe advanced novice?). For instance, here's a nice Starlight Waltz at Bavarian Open 2024 from a team which has since moved to juniors:

Yes, the rhythm dance is used only for junior and senior levels. Levels below that (Advanced Novice, Intermediate Novice, and Basic Novice in ISU terminology) use pattern dances instead.

See, e.g., https://current.isu.org/inside-isu/...munications/33670-isu-communication-2625/file
(This latest novice communication was really hard to find because some of the links are broken)

I would happily see it coming back as social gatherings or as non-Olympic "dance off" competitions when several teams are skating side-by-side.
The number of ice dance participants is growing rapidly; specific dance-only competitions are held already. It wouldn't be that much trouble to add another, non-Olympic, discipline that would serve well for fun and training. Or, the solo dance is also developing. Such gatherings could be tied to that (single skaters trying easier steps together and switching partners).

I think social ice dance has historically been of more interest to adult skaters (some of whom may be capable of skating gold-level and even what the US calls international-level dances) than to active competitors who are in steady partnerships, or even solo dance competitors these days, and who are busy training free dances and RDs at higher levels.

When I belonged to clubs that offered programmed dance sessions, most of the participants were adults without permanent partners, and I understand the same is true for ice dance weekends though I never attended one.
I think they have become less common with the rise of competitive adult dance and solo dance, but they do still exist. E.g.,

Social Ice Dancing – The Skating Club of Boston

Starlight Ice Dance Club of the Twin Cities

www.starlighticedanceclub.com

Ice Dance Weekend

Ice Dance Weekends Hosted by Bay Area Ice Dancers

www.bayareaicedancers.org

2024 Atlanta Ice Dance Weekend (June 7-9)

The Atlanta Ice Dance Weekend is back. June 7-9, 2024 Registration now open! Presented by the Atlanta Figure Skating Club. Register To Attend! Register To Attend! 2023 Ice Dance Weekend Register

atlantafsc.com

I'm not sure you would get active elite competitors to participate, but maybe some recent elite competitors, or some who are "between partners"

Still, social ice dance occasions exist for the pleasure of the participants and are not designed with spectators in mind.

 

[gkelly]

It's a long time since I did dance tests and I can't remember if you do two or three circuits of the ice in a compulsory dance,

It depends on which dance you're doing.

For the most part, the ones that go all the way around the ice are skated twice in tests and the ones that go halfway around were skated three times, some of them only two now. But four times for the Kilian. (Different federations might have different rules for testing.)

 

[Diana Delafield]

Thank you! I see that makes sense for the dancing - for skating, maybe not so much?

The general principle started there, in ballroom, then was adapted to suit pattern dances in skating. And since then, so many more changes have developed in ice dancing as it grew away from its origin on the dance floor.

 

[lariko]

I don't mind fresh emphasis on 'something more upbeat, please', but I want to know why people default to tango in FD instead of waltz. I never had any particular feelings about tango, but I am starting to develop a 'not another tango' syndrome.

 

[Rebecca Moose]

Ice dance should strive to be recognized as a sport, not a social activity. The sport's inclusion in the Olympics has always been tenuous at best.

 

[4everchan]

I thought dance was doing better when Virtue and Moir or Papadakis and Cizeron didn't have to wait for their turn forever... and got to the top on their own merits...

But right now, there are a few teams who are at the top (IMHO) because they've been there the longest... and other teams are not being promoted fast enough, still in my opinion.

And yet, surprisingly, sometimes, you'll see a brand new team being promoted super fast... (usually coming from the USA but not always).

So to me, as a fan, not completely ignorant but not an expert, the development in the sport would also come from the impression of fair judging .. the "wait for your turn" game is still too strong in ice dance.

 

[peepsquick]

"Waiting for your turn" doesn't make any sense ... if they are good enough, there is no good reason to hold couples back. Some seasoned couples might never get to the top but taking part long enough in competitions should not automatically equate a podium.

 

[Diana Delafield]

"Waiting for your turn" doesn't make any sense ... if they are good enough, there is no good reason to hold couples back. Some seasoned couples might never get to the top but taking part long enough in competitions should not automatically equate a podium.

It used to be like that in all disciplines, not just dance. It was common for someone to be world champion for three years, then medal at the Olympics, win worlds a fourth time shortly after, and then retire to the ice shows. The next year, the former silver medallist would shuffle to the head of the line for their turn (Dick Button and the Jenkins brothers come to mind in the USA). In singles, this began to change from the 1970s on, and pairs a bit later once Rodnina finally retired. Ice dance, the shadow of paying your dues and waiting your turn still lingers. It's a mentally-fixed tradition going back more than a century.

 

[peepsquick]

It used to be like that in all disciplines, not just dance. It was common for someone to be world champion for three years, then medal at the Olympics, win worlds a fourth time shortly after, and then retire to the ice shows. The next year, the former silver medallist would shuffle to the head of the line for their turn (Dick Button and the Jenkins brothers come to mind in the USA). In singles, this began to change from the 1970s on, and pairs a bit later once Rodnina finally retired. Ice dance, the shadow of paying your dues and waiting your turn still lingers. It's a mentally-fixed tradition going back more than a century.

Thank you for the detailed information ... I do hope that mentalities will evolve and turn away from the traditional 'stay in line and wait for your turn'- type of thinking. It is getting a bit stale at the top in Ice Dance these days imo and there are quite a few 'worthy' couples stuck in limbo.

 

[Violet Sky]

Jean Luc needs to be competing

https://youtu.be/rYU8srFtEEo?si=DlyHKypY6yq59Zir (Kaitlin and Jean Luc performing in NYC Bryant Park Figure Skating Christmas show)

 

[lariko]

I don't know what worthy is. A lot of ice dance scoring points are tied to performance of difficult steps with precision which is not the same as speed across the ice, attack, acrobatic lifts or doing stuff with arms during twizzles. A few weeks ago, i found out to my complete surprise that 3rd twizzle is not even required, it is simply one of many features to build up levels on the element, the 2-twizzle sequence. The way they build levels on each element is pretty cool, but even with a lot of intellectual investment, the second they start calling steps they are doing, my eyes glaze over. There is no way, no way I can see it even qualitatively, aside from juniors when one of the 'worst of seniors' teams skates right after 'actual juniors' team. Speaking of things I feel the worst about in current ice dance direction, it's this age-bracket shoving of the worst of seniors into juniors for the sake of pairs.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

Speaking of things I feel the worst about in current ice dance direction, it's this age-bracket shoving of the worst of seniors into juniors for the sake of pairs.

Ice Dance has different age restrictions than pairs, though?

The number of teams affected by the age change (raise of the upper age limit for women in Ice Dance to 21) this season already is not huge, and the number of teams actually taking advantage of it even smaller (Gauthier/Thieren, Bernard/Bonetto, Wolfkostin/Tsarevski, Nguyen/Giang, Schubert/Remeshevskiy, Tali/Lafornara, Yamashita/Nagata). Two of these teams aren't even "the worst of seniors", in my humble opinion, but would be quite squarely in the lower mid-pack (W/T and T/L).

 

[gsk8]

@gsk8 it would be great to have some more interviews on this topic, especially from people who could explain more about the technical side of ice dance and/or give a historical perspective. A lot of discussion about ice dance focuses on programme themes, artistic packaging, music choice etc., because 1. that is undeniably a huge focus of the discipline, but also 2. it's harder for the general audience to learn about technical nuances compared to, say, singles or pairs elements. I really appreciate those tidbits of information that Mark sometimes throws out e.g. about the cleanliness of a bracket, or admiring a team's crosscuts. It works well on the ISU livestreams together with Ted commenting as a non-ice-dancer on more general performance aspects.

Indeed it would! Unfortunately, that would probably involve clips of videos (for examples) which would create a copyright nightmare

I can certainly do an interview, but without context (videos) I think it would be really hard to get any points across?

What are some examples of questions you would want asked specifically?

 

[jersey1302]

I think the ISU needs to have a global conference and coaches, judges , officials are allowed to attend. They need to bring up an agenda prior and have it set on what needs to be discussed. It should be a 2 day event. That way everyone can lay things on the table and get feedback, give reasoning etc. Being transparent with every entity would be key IMO. If it is too much people for that then every country can select a delegation on behalf of the nation to bring up and address concerns on behalf of everyone. That Choreo step in the width of the ice is the dumbest thing I have ever seen. We can go with out it. Stuff like that can be avoided. How about the regular step sequence just have to involve character portions. Id also be asking clarification on PCS scoring and asking how we can be less subjective. Now obviously PCS is always going to have subjectivity however I dont see it being equal for everyone.

 

[figureskatingfanlv]

I think ISU in ice dance need:

1.Stop partner step switching for the junior segment.

2.Return to 2010.-2020/2021. rythme dance type in senior level.

3.Replace acrobatic elements with dance elements.

4.Put teams skate in position.

5.Add dancing skills and partnership as part from PCS.

6.Review how judges gives GOE and PCS and punish judges if they aren't objective.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

Indeed it would! Unfortunately, that would probably involve clips of videos (for examples) which would create a copyright nightmare

I can certainly do an interview, but without context (videos) I think it would be really hard to get any points across?

What are some examples of questions you would want asked specifically?

Hiya! An interview would be great! Sorry I only just noticed your reply, life has kept me away from skating for a while

Regarding video examples, if the purpose is to explain technical details, one idea to avoid copyright issues could be to use practice footage (audio could be replaced if needed). I'm not sure how feasible or within your scope it would be, but if you are able to interview ice dance coaches on site, then perhaps they or their skaters could demonstrate some elements to be filmed? These could be pre-recorded and referred to during an off-ice interview. Alternatively (and this may be a bit ambitious), the interview could be done rinkside in whole or part. I've come across recordings of skating seminars (e.g. this one), which seem to be geared more for junior skaters and their coaches to refer to, but something like this could be tweaked/condensed and pitched towards audience education

Videos aside, I'm not sure how open to media the summer training camps are, but it would be great to get a glimpse into how different coaches collaborate. I thought the one last year with the Zanni/Margaglio/Lanotte teams sounded really interesting, for instance. Doing an interview at one would allow for speaking to multiple coaches and skaters so you might get a bigger range of opinions in a more 'relaxed' environment.

As for questions, I think there would be a broad interest on this forum in hearing retired ice dancers/coaches' opinions of these topics:

1. Changes in RD/FD format over the past quad, and how it compares to the interviewees' era (both technical and aesthetic)
2. The future outlook for 'older' aspects of ice dance: skating close together in hold, pattern dance skills, expressing distinct ballroom styles, using varied footwork dynamics to reflect musicality and timing (these aspects are all related, but not the same)
3. Finding a programme format/judging system that strikes a balance between allowing choreographic creativity, standardising elements for fair comparison, and rewarding technical difficulty
4. Contemporary social topics: solo ice dance, any-gender teams, developing ice dance at the grassroots level and in small federations, and of course spectator popularity

Hopefully others can chime in with more questions! I see some of the ideas in this thread are more specifically about education: learning to identify elements and understand the judging system. There are also concerns about transparency and proposals for alternative formats. I guess what you can feasibly ask might depend on the interviewee's current role in the sport (e.g. active skater/coach, tech specialist, policymaker).