Why does starting order/grouping affect PCS? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Why does starting order/grouping affect PCS?

For figure skating, there are a few things which are easily measurable, others that are theoretically measurable but too complicated to do accurately and cost effectively with current technology, and the majority is qualitative and therefore not really measurable.
If quality was not measurable, no quality standards or quality control was possible. However, we have both in almost every branch of human activity. In spheres that do not fall in the entertainment category, quality control requires precision measurements, humans who supervise the measurement process, and humans who supervise the humans who supervise the measurement process. It's serious and needs double-check.

In entertainment categories though, there is a problem: quality control demands that quality standards are set before it is carried through. But we need no standards in entertainment; we need variety. So, we of course have "judges" and "supervisors" and "critics" in these fields, but their evaluations have rather an opinion value.

Figure skating is caught in the middle: as a sport, it requires standardization because we can only compare apples to apples. At the same time, too much standardization may cause the loss of its entertainment value.
After certain input of work, measurable standards for quality aspects of figure skating can indeed be set. However, we need to consider the effects. In this sport, skaters tend to include in their programs whatever awarded with points and drop everything not rewarded with points. It's like a double-edged dagger. Programs are becoming simpler season-by-season, which is caused by the situation when technical development possibilities and physical capabilities of a human in this sport are reaching limits. More standards would mean repetition in even more ways; however, not applying quality standards in a timely manner may cause the loss of said quality.
 
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This is a rare case where I am going to say that Tarasova might have had a point. Speed, she said recently, is really important. In speed skating. This here, is figure skating, and what counts is skating with power, with appropriate changes in speed for accents, not skating fast or selecting faster tune. One can skate powerfully to slow music.

There are Japanese skaters who are really fast, so fast, camera loses them or it looks like the footage is speed up. But what's the point, if that speed is not linked to emotional content that so many Japanese are failing to project, resulting in bland delivery that, in addition, thanks to speed, is hard to see without slow motion.
 
An interesting list. I would say that of these,"creative" and perhaps "original" are difficult to measure. but"fast, high and long" are, at least in principle, fairly objective and straight-forward .
Yes, "fast, high and long" could be objectively measured.
What about them should be measured is up for discussion. For jumps alone, height and length would be easier to measure. Possibly speed for jumps, taking into account speed across the ice at the entry and exit edges (and first landing edge in a combination).
If we're talking about speed across a 4-minute program, then there's the question about whether to take average speed or maximum speed for the whole program, or to use discrete speed measurements for each part of the program separately. (E.g., during each step/choreo sequence, into and out of each jump, during each lift that is intended to cover ice, getting from one end of the ice to another between elements.
For spins (and "stationary lifts" in ice dance, and death spirals as well as side-by-side and pair spins in pairs), we would want to measure rotational speed, not speed across the ice, which ideally should be zero if the spin remains perfectly centered, and which would bring down the average for the program as a whole for skaters who are able to sustain a long fast spin vs. those who keep their spins brief and start moving across the ice sooner.

For step sequences/choreo sequences, for set patterns in pattern or rhythm dances, for transitional stroking between elements, would we want to measure just how quickly a skater moves from point A to point B along the straight line between A and B, even though a skater who skates on deeper curves will cover more actual ice

Do we have instruments that can easily measure the actual feet/meters of ice covered on deep curves and calculate velocity based on that actual pathway, including accelerations and decelerations during the pattern? Wouldn't a radar gun measuring from a fixed point tell us only how quickly the skater is moving when it crosses the point being measured?

So what technology exists to take continuous curving paths that continually change direction?

How fine-grained would we want the speed measurements to be, and how would we balance these measurements with 1) deep edges, which do represent greater speed/power if we consider the full length of the curving path covered in a given unit of time, not just the straight-line distance between the start and end points; and 2) complexity of the movements while traveling from point to point -- should there be a reward for a skater getting from A to B doing multiple difficult turns and changes of curve with fewer pushes/changes of foot in the same amount of time as another skater doing only crossovers and maybe one mohawk?

This is a rare case where I am going to say that Tarasova might have had a point. Speed, she said recently, is really important. In speed skating. This here, is figure skating, and what counts is skating with power, not skating fast or selecting faster tune. One can skate powerfully to slow music.
When we're talking about "speed" in skating we're usually talking about power in the sense of amount of ice covered per second, or per stroke if you prefer. Completely unrelated to quickness of the rhythm, which would be the number of movements per second.


"Difficult" and even "good" can be approached by lists of positive and negative features that are separately fairly precise.and not just up to judges' whimsy. A quad filp is more difficult than a double Salchow. A level 4 step sequence filled with intricate steps and turns is more difficult than a laid-back and boring one.
Of course, "boring" is in the eye of the beholder. Pre-IJS, step sequences tended to be choreographed to demonstrate ability to stick to a clear straight-line/diagonal, circular, or clear serpentine pattern, to express the music, and often to demonstrate quickness of footwork using novelty steps and hops that added interest and sometimes athletic difficulty but didn't showcase basic skating vocabulary in terms of edges and turns. The best such sequences could be very exciting to watch, not "boring" at all, but including less complexity of basic skating content.

In IJS, the rules for step sequence levels are specifically designed to reward variety of difficult turns with clear edges/clean turns, measuring skills that had been less emphasized in the years between school figures and IJS. Some skaters are able to showcase these skills very well in interesting ways, while expressing the music well and maybe varying the tempo and including non-edge based skills for variety. Personally, these good examples are my favorite things about IJS-era programs. But some viewers are more interested in the jumps and spins, or in quick foot movements during step sequences, and have no interest in watching edge work. And the step sequences now take up more time in the program. So viewers who are less interested in the skills being showcased find them to be more boring than the quicker 6.0-era sequences (quicker both in terms of rhythm of the movements and also in the amount of time they took up in the program).

Turning in both directions was rewarded in the scoring both under 6.0 and in IJS, but many 6.0-era straight-line step sequences could be fun to watch without including many turns or any deep edges at all, and circular step sequences often included few turns rotating against the curve of the circle.

Upper body movement was less common in 6.0 step sequences but when it was present it could also add to the interest of the sequence, especially if more keyed to expressing the music and not apparently present just to earn a level.


After certain input of work, measurable standards for quality aspects of figure skating can indeed be set. However, we need to consider the effects. In this sport, skaters tend to include in their programs whatever they are awarded with points and drop everything not rewarded with points.
This is true. But there are more types of skills that are explicitly rewarded in IJS moves that were never specifically mentioned under 6.0, so they were rare (and often appeared creative) in those days but now are just expected.

It's like a double-edged dagger. Programs are becoming simpler season-by-season,
I'm not sure that individual programs are becoming simpler season by season. Definitely if you compared a representative program from the 1990s with one from the 2020s, there will be more going on in the latter. (With exceptions in both directions -- the most complex 6.0 programs will have more content than the simplest IJS programs, but on average, IJS programs are more complex.)

What is true is that IJS has standardized what gets rewarded such that everyone tries to do the things it rewards that are most straightforward to achieve, and to leave out skills that are no longer rewarded and even penalized by IJS rules. So what has happened is that IJS programs become more similar to each other in any given year, making the range of creativity across a whole field more uniform than under 6.0.

which is caused by the situation when technical development possibilities and physical capabilities of a human in this sport are reaching limits. More standards would mean repetition in even more ways; however, not applying quality standards in a timely manner may cause the loss of said quality.
In theory, I think it would be possible to add more standards for different kinds of elements or combinations of skills such that skaters would have a wider variety of choices of ways to showcase skills. That would allow different skaters to construct their programs (or their individual elements) in very different ways, while still being rewarded according to clearer standards.

But the IJS does not seem interested in increasing the options in this way, perhaps because it would put a much larger burden on the tech panel to apply that many more rules to more different kinds of elements.
 
Its interesting and even puzzling why speed is so emphasized by many today. Ive watched figure skating since the early 70's and I don't ever remember skating speed and length of jump being huge factors, especially in women's event. They were nice extras, but not as important as gracefulness, body control, balance and musicality. And height of jump was much more cherished than length.Its only recently that speed and length are so often mentioned as huge things. Even in the rules and criteria, skating speed is only just one of several components in skating skills, no more important than the others. And high speed is not mentioned at all anywhere else other than rotational speed in spins. There is nothing in the criteria rewarding high speed in jumps, just potential punishment for poor speed. Maybe because speed and length are the strengths of the current champion, is this why its so trendy? Maybe to justify such high scores for relatively ordinary content? The ISU does often love to pile points on whoever their current flavor of the month is afterall.
 
I actually think that the scoring/judging system in figure skating is working out fairly well. The thing about this sport is that quality is more important than quantity. The IJS aspires to quantify those aspects of skating that are quantifiable, while providing guidelines as to how the difficult-to-quantify aspects of a performance should be judged.

Judging and measuring are two different things.
I've said this before, but it's worth repeating.

I can't recall an instance under IJS in which I felt "This is a flatly wrong outcome. The judges cheated to achieve the result they wanted."

Now, this is not to say I haven't always seen competitions in the exact same way as the judges, but I acknowledge there's room for interpretation.

What I'm talking about is "Robbed" situations, as in "there's absolutely no way an objective observer could say that skater deserved to win."

And sure, we argue over bits and pieces of PCS, and whether a jump was landed on the quarter or not. But I don't see outrageous placements, and that was very common under 6.0. I think having the protocols to review how each individual element was judged for every single competitor is a huge benefit to our sport. When I see a score that is lower (or higher) than I expect, I know I can find out exactly why that is, rather than wondering how a judge magically differentiated between placements 6 and 7.
 
Here’s what I think. I think that figure skating fans get a bad rap. Bitch, bitch, bitch, whine, whine, whine. In reality, though, we are no different from fans of other sports.

I watched the two post-season American college football bowl games on Saturday: the Pop Tarts Bowl (featuring announcers and analysts dressed up as breakfast pastries – Johnny Weir, take note!) and the Snoop Dogg Bowl. Every time the referees were required to make a judgment call (or no-call), half the stadium erupted with outrage: Are you blind? How much is the other team paying you?

The other half responded with enthusiastic whoops and applause.
 
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Its interesting and even puzzling why speed is so emphasized by many today. Ive watched figure skating since the early 70's and I don't ever remember skating speed and length of jump being huge factors, especially in women's event. They were nice extras, but not as important as gracefulness, body control, balance and musicality. And height of jump was much more cherished than length.Its only recently that speed and length are so often mentioned as huge things. Even in the rules and criteria, skating speed is only just one of several components in skating skills, no more important than the others.
Speed was always part of the Technical Merit mark in 6.0 judging for the free skate.
Originally it was part of the Presentation mark for short programs, since the first mark for short programs was called Required Elements. IIRC, Speed per se was later moved into the first mark even for short programs. "Variation of speed" was added to the second mark as a new criterion, for both programs I believe. (I can look it up later if people care.)

So pure speed alone was not valued over the ability to control acceleration and deceleration at will, as appropriate for particular moves and particular parts of the music.

But it was definitely one of the criteria. Some TV commentators were more likely to mention it than others.
 
Speed was always part of the Technical Merit mark in 6.0 judging for the free skate.
Originally it was part of the Presentation mark for short programs, since the first mark for short programs was called Required Elements. IIRC, Speed per se was later moved into the first mark even for short programs. "Variation of speed" was added to the second mark as a new criterion, for both programs I believe. (I can look it up later if people care.)

So pure speed alone was not valued over the ability to control acceleration and deceleration at will, as appropriate for particular moves and particular parts of the music.

But it was definitely one of the criteria. Some TV commentators were more likely to mention it than others.
I specifically said it was one of the criteria. My point was that it is not any more important than of the other criteria. And historically other aspects are considered more important. As Tarasova said, this is not speed skating. You don't get extra points just for being the fastest.
 
Here’s what I think. I think that figure skating fans get a bad rap. Bitch, bitch, bitch, whine, whine, whine. In reality, though, we are no different from fans of other sports.

I watched the two post-season American college football bowl games on Saturday: the Pop Tarts Bowl (featuring announcers and analysts dressed up as breakfast pastries – Johnny Weir, take note!) and the Snoop Dogg Bowl. Every time the referees were required to make a judgment call (or no-call), half the stadium erupted with outrage: Are you blind? How much is the other team paying you?

The other half responded with enthusiastic whoops and applause.
Those examples are of bias because of rooting or gambling interests by the fans. This also is a part of skating as well. But that doesn't mean you can dismiss everything and just assume the referee or judge was correct, and that there isn't a systemic problem.
 
I've said this before, but it's worth repeating.

I can't recall an instance under IJS in which I felt "This is a flatly wrong outcome. The judges cheated to achieve the result they wanted."

Now, this is not to say I haven't always seen competitions in the exact same way as the judges, but I acknowledge there's room for interpretation.

What I'm talking about is "Robbed" situations, as in "there's absolutely no way an objective observer could say that skater deserved to win."
I can probably make an argument for the women's event at Sochi. And I mean that was Olympic Gold we're talking about.

But I do get what you're saying.
 
But that doesn't mean you can dismiss everything and just assume the referee or judge was correct, and that there isn't a systemic problem.
I have to admit that I am with Tonto K on the "systemic problem" issue. The last time I remember being surprised at the judges' decision in a major event was when Jeff Buttle won over Brian Joubert at 2008 Worlds. I had bought into the whole "no quad, no gold" meme. Once the protocols came out, it became clear that the judges were right Iand my perception was askew.

I was surprised when Mirai Nagasu was not selected for the 2018 Olympic team despite finishing third at U.S. Nationals. A little investigation on my part enlightened me on the point that the USFSA selction rules had changed since the good old days, and the rules then in place favored Ashley Wagner's body of work and recent success at International events. No sinister back-room deals and shenanigans.

Even the case that Minz noted above. Yes. I was rooting for figure skating legend, the breathtaking Yuna Kim. But Adelina Sotnikova did seven triples to Kim's six and skated with youthful verve, conviction, elan -- I would need more evidence than just what I saw on the ice that day to start making chargies of skulduggery.
 
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I have to admit that I am with Tonto K on the "systemic problem" issue. The last time I remember being surprised at the judges' decision in a major event was when Jeff Buttle won over Brian Joubert at 2008 Worlds. I had bought into the whole "no quad, no gold" meme. Once the protocols came out, it became clear that the judges were right Iand my perception was askew.

I was surprised when Mirai Nagasu was not selected for the 2018 Olympic team despite finishing third at U.S. Nationals. A little investigation on my part enlightened me on the point that the USFSA selction rules had changed since the good old days, and the rules then in place favored Ashley Wagner's body of work and recent success at International events. No sinister back-room deals and shenanigans.

Even the case that Minz noted above. Yes. I was rooting for figure skating legend, the breathtaking Yuna Kim. But Adelina Sotnikova did seven triples to Kim's six and skated with youthful verve, conviction, elan -- I would need more evidence than just what I saw on the ice that day to start making chargies of skulduggery.
So are you saying that since our eyes and brains are pretty much all we have to rely on here, that we should just ignore them and compliment the emperor on his new clothes? Lol
 
bland delivery
Which is probably part of the problem, being strictly in the eyes of the beholder - I spent one extremely successful skater's entire career seeing a vacuous empty space on the ice while the judges and the skater's countrymen and women effused. To many folk, the Japanese are among the least drab in the current senior collection.

Back to the real topic...
I can't recall an instance under IJS in which I felt "This is a flatly wrong outcome. The judges cheated to achieve the result they wanted."

Oh I can (there is no doubt imo that some people blatantly got and/or get the Skating with an X Passport bonus), but then I tell myself the rest of it just might conceivably, if I think very very hard and very very charitably, might be Hanlon's razor, with a hefty dose of sheeply officialdom sheepliness at work.
 
Figure skating is caught in the middle: (between objective measurement and "opinion."
I like this way of putting it and I agree. Figure skating judging involves criteria that are more complicated to spell out than just "run faster," "jump higher."

But figure skating judging is not just, "I lke broccoli better than asparagus."

The performance aspects of figure skating, I would compare rather to, say, music contests to award a prize to whoever plays the violin the best. There are well-defined critieria which are understood and agreed upon by the great majority of musicologists, music critics/teachers, composers and performers..

(What's cool aout music prizes is that sometimes the jury says, "You all played like crap; no prize will be awarded this year." ;) )
 
I specifically said it was one of the criteria. My point was that it is not any more important than of the other criteria. And historically other aspects are considered more important. As Tarasova said, this is not speed skating. You don't get extra points just for being the fastest.
True. Speed alone never was and never will be a sole determining factor of skating results, or even of "Skating Skills" component scores.

The way I see it:
Figure skating has always been a qualitative sport, with results determined by the assessments of knowledgeable but imperfect human beings. There was never a time when the scoring was "correct," must less objective, before it got broken. It was just never perfect to begin with.

And it can never be completely objective given that some of the qualities it values are impossible to measure and others are extremely difficult to measure within the context of a ~4-minute program in which the skater travels in complicated pathways around a large ice surface, especially because much of the complexities that make measurement difficult are exactly what also makes for "better skating."

As the types of skills skaters were able to do developed, rules changed to accommodate new skating content or eliminate other types of content, and rules or guidelines changed to adjust to different emphases in what the ISU wanted to reward.

The shift from ordinal rankings to IJS was a huge change in the way the sport is scored. It's a step in the direction of greater specificity, accuracy, accountability, but it still relies on human assessments even in determining exactly what was performed (tech panel), not to mention the inherent subjectivity in assessing how well the various skills were performed.

We can imagine that technological advances, some of which already exist, would allow for objective measurement of some aspects what's being performed (e.g., jump rotation, speed across the ice once you define exactly what about ice speed you want to measure and score). As the sport continues to develop, undoubtedly some of these things that can be measured will have exact technological measurements incorporated into the scoring in place of human estimates.

But other aspects of the sport are not amenable to objective measurement in the first place. They will always need to be assessed by imperfect human beings. Improvement in assessment of those aspects will rely on clearer rules/guidelines and better more consistent training for the officials involved. Sharing that training, at least at a clear overview level, with skaters, coaches, and fans would help get everyone on the same page and reduce the confusing and wuzrobbing. But we'll never get perfect agreement between fans or skating insiders observing a competition and the exact determinations of the official panels on each event. We'll never even get perfect agreement between all members of the same judging panel (or tech panel, although they have to negotiate agreement for each element call). It's just the nature of what's being assessed -- what makes "good skating" good is inherently more qualitative than quantitative.

Some fans whose other allegiances are to different kinds of sports that are more easily measured objectively may wish that skating could follow the lead of those sports, increase the measurements and reduce or eliminate all the qualitative/subjectively assessed aspects.

If that really happened, though, the sport would no longer resemble what we currently love. It would be as different from what we watch now as the current sport is from what freeskates looked like earlier in the figures era.
 
I guess what I am saying is that I do not share your alarm at the state of the sport. To quote Anne Frank, in spite of everything Istill believe that most people are good at heart.
I wouldn't say alarmed since its been this way a very long time. I would say just sick of the ISU and National Feds and their politics and corruption. Its good to not take the scores too seriously and just share your opinions of who you thought skated well and who didn't. This is a good place for that afterall.
 
True. Speed alone never was and never will be a sole determining factor of skating results, or even of "Skating Skills" component scores.

The way I see it:
Figure skating has always been a qualitative sport, with results determined by the assessments of knowledgeable but imperfect human beings. There was never a time when the scoring was "correct," must less objective, before it got broken. It was just never perfect to begin with.

And it can never be completely objective given that some of the qualities it values are impossible to measure and others are extremely difficult to measure within the context of a ~4-minute program in which the skater travels in complicated pathways around a large ice surface, especially because much of the complexities that make measurement difficult are exactly what also makes for "better skating."

As the types of skills skaters were able to do developed, rules changed to accommodate new skating content or eliminate other types of content, and rules or guidelines changed to adjust to different emphases in what the ISU wanted to reward.

The shift from ordinal rankings to IJS was a huge change in the way the sport is scored. It's a step in the direction of greater specificity, accuracy, accountability, but it still relies on human assessments even in determining exactly what was performed (tech panel), not to mention the inherent subjectivity in assessing how well the various skills were performed.

We can imagine that technological advances, some of which already exist, would allow for objective measurement of some aspects what's being performed (e.g., jump rotation, speed across the ice once you define exactly what about ice speed you want to measure and score). As the sport continues to develop, undoubtedly some of these things that can be measured will have exact technological measurements incorporated into the scoring in place of human estimates.

But other aspects of the sport are not amenable to objective measurement in the first place. They will always need to be assessed by imperfect human beings. Improvement in assessment of those aspects will rely on clearer rules/guidelines and better more consistent training for the officials involved. Sharing that training, at least at a clear overview level, with skaters, coaches, and fans would help get everyone on the same page and reduce the confusing and wuzrobbing. But we'll never get perfect agreement between fans or skating insiders observing a competition and the exact determinations of the official panels on each event. We'll never even get perfect agreement between all members of the same judging panel (or tech panel, although they have to negotiate agreement for each element call). It's just the nature of what's being assessed -- what makes "good skating" good is inherently more qualitative than quantitative.

Some fans whose other allegiances are to different kinds of sports that are more easily measured objectively may wish that skating could follow the lead of those sports, increase the measurements and reduce or eliminate all the qualitative/subjectively assessed aspects.

If that really happened, though, the sport would no longer resemble what we currently love. It would be as different from what we watch now as the current sport is from what freeskates looked like earlier in the figures era.
I basically agree with you. But unfortunately it also highlights the fatal flaw of skating as its now constituted. That is the complete reliance on the the integrity and competence of the judges, the feds, and ISU officials. Personally I would rely on Satoko doing a 3A or a quad rather than those people displaying such traits.
 
I basically agree with you. But unfortunately it also highlights the fatal flaw of skating as its now constituted. That is the complete reliance on the the integrity and competence of the judges, the feds, and ISU officials. Personally I would rely on Satoko doing a 3A or a quad rather than those people displaying such traits.
Still, skating has always relied on the integrity and competence of the judges, the feds and the ISU officials. If anything it has gotten better with introduction of IJS. It can continue to get better, but it will never become perfect, and it will never become perfectly objective.

And if it did become a sport of measuring tricks that skaters can execute on ice without caring about the quality of edges, it wouldn't be figure skating at all, it would be something else. If there were no programs and no value to performance quality, it might still be figure skating, but it would become a lot less interesting.
 
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