Is the interaction between competitive skating and show skating still mutually beneficial?

[Anna K.]

Exhibition/show skating is a mandatory part of every skater's career, which is understandable considering that it used to be a true goldmine in the past. But is it still? Given that demands of both the sport (the season is longer; the competition is tougher) and stadium-filling shows (i.e. the level of top productions of Cirque du Solei)) are rising rapidly, can we still take for granted that this interaction is mutually beneficial? Taking a break from shows can help an athlete to prepare better for competitions and earn better prize money. On the other hand, better shows require performers who are better actors and/or can better work as a team, which doesn't necessarily mean that they have the best sport achievements.

What do you think? Are competitive skating and sports skating still working hand-in-hand and developing in the same direction or are they taking separate directions and attracting different segments of public?

 

[Mathman]

I can only comment on the situation in the United States. I would say that professional shows have diminished in popularity for the general public to such a drastic extent that the question has become moot. In the 1990s tours such as Stars on Ice and Champions on ice played to 60 or more stops annually and people lined up to see their favorite Olympic competitors like Scott Hamilton and Kristi Yamaguchi do their thing. There were also skating specials on TV on a regular basis as well as some legitimate pro competitions -- Kurt Browning versus Briano Boitano, yay! It was very much a case of building your amateur resume, especially at the Olympics, and then cashing in as a professional entertainer.

A few established show still exist such as the Sun Valley productions, and they continue to feature popular competitive athletes of the recent past as their top draws. But the opportunities for skaters are on a smaller scale than was the case in the "golden age" when the very tip top of the heap could make millions doing their thing.

Janet Lynn, despite the lack of a world or Olympic title turned pro in 1973 and signed with Ice Follies for US$ 1.5 million, making her the highest-paid female athlete in the world. These days are long gone.

 

[TallyT]

Can't say it is mandatory, if it ever was, especially as, apart from Japan and Russia it seems from where I look to be quite restricted to 'name' skaters (even in those places, where figure skating is still popular, it still seems to be a perk for the successful and those with good agents.) And I note that the biggest drawcards are pretty much all skaters who have left the competitive field, which makes it harder for those who want to supplement their training income to compete, I guess.

The prize money for competitive figure skating, when you think of it, isn't that great as placed against serious training expenses; I have read theories that one of Malinin's reasons for doing so many shows is to make money, which is fair enough given that sponsorship also seems to be mostly going to the most mediagenic retired/pro skaters.

can we still take for granted that this interaction is mutually beneficial?

Depends how they pace themselves. Some of them seem to accept every invite they get, especially if they are working on building a personal fan base.

On the other hand, better shows require performers who are better actors and/or can better work as a team, which doesn't necessarily mean that they have the best sport achievements.

What is meant by 'better shows'? After all SOI, PIW etc with 'star skaters come on and do their star turns' mentality don't put much effort into team numbers (which are often quite... err, yes well), but then they depend heavily on the 'names' they can attract.

 

[Pixie Cut]

I think Anna K. meant post-competition exhibitions are mandatory.

Once "amateur" skaters were able to earn money in the early 1990s, tours like Champions on Ice became a serious source of income for skaters still competing. Nowadays, skaters do shows when and where they can. Current competitors take opportunities to make a few dollars, but do need to be careful not to conflict with training or competition.

Show skating does enhance performance skills, but there aren't opportunities like there used to be.

 

[ladyjane]

I have no definite answer. I like shows, but do regret the lack of real difficulty. I understand why skaters are careful in that sense.

I think it helps in questions of improving performance and increasing the enjoyment of a boisterous audience, it doesn't help in getting your training done because there will be less of it.

 

[Magill]

I think it really depends on where you look. Japan seems to be the opposite of US in this. Ice show market is thriving there and even if it got overheated at some point, it was just due to too many hands reaching for the same huge but not unlimited cake, so some were left without a piece big enough and had to leave, so to say. But yes, it is still great and growing, especially now, with the best Japanese skaters retired from competitions and having moved entirely to the pro world, pouring in it their whole immense creativity and skills, and taking their fandoms there. And mind you, it is still offering this extra income also to US and European skaters, and others from outside of Japan, both those currently participating in competitions and those who went pro. The best Japanese ice shows sell better than most competitions, they have bigger audiences, more sponsors, and bigger budgets. So, yeah...

I don't know what is meant here by Cirque-du-Soleil kind of shows. Literally speaking, I think OTOH these shows have very different audiences, and do not really overlap much with those featuring current and former competition stars and champions. So this is really a completely different discussion.

But to answer the main question regarding those shows where skaters at least potentially overlap - I think OP has a point in that skills currently dominating competitions and therefore most sought after there - i.e. jumps - are of not much use for shows because skaters mostly do not do too many and too difficult jumps in shows for fear of injury and lack of proper conditions, rink size, ice quality, lighting or rather lack of it etc. But even more importantly, jumps alone, without performance skills - not necessarily acting skills, but performing skills - to match, are not an element able to keep a show going and the audience involved in the long run. I think it is not an insignificant coincidence that Japanese skaters are best rounded and therefore able to do well in both worlds. But the well rounded male skaters are more and more an endangered species. With the current emphasis on more and more jumping and less and less actual skating in men competitions, I do think these two realms fall more and more apart. Of course, there will always be a segment of the public who just come to see big names and comp winners, no matter what they are able to show. But I do think emphasis is shifting atm. For me, the ice show realm is currently much more interesting and creative than the competition realm. It would be interesting to know if the audience start to drift in two different directions, and it is not the same people buying tickets to comps and to shows any more. Which I suspect might be more and more the case. With the performance-focused skaters having less and less chances to win against the big jumpers, they might be moving faster to the show realm which is more welcoming and offering better rewards for their kind, using competitions just to make their name known enough to secure them a place in shows. Which would make the division even sharper and the gap even wider with big jumpers winning competitions but not able to draw real big crowds therefore less and less attractive for the shows. We'll see.

As for the supposed importance of team work competences for future ice show assignments - well, currently the most successful ice show is a solo show, so I'm not sure I see the point.

 

[Anna K.]

Can't say it is mandatory, if it ever was, especially as, apart from Japan and Russia it seems from where I look to be quite restricted to 'name' skaters (even in those places, where figure skating is still popular, it still seems to be a perk for the successful and those with good agents.) And I note that the biggest drawcards are pretty much all skaters who have left the competitive field, which makes it harder for those who want to supplement their training income to compete, I guess.

The prize money for competitive figure skating, when you think of it, isn't that great as placed against serious training expenses; I have read theories that one of Malinin's reasons for doing so many shows is to make money, which is fair enough given that sponsorship also seems to be mostly going to the most mediagenic retired/pro skaters.


Depends how they pace themselves. Some of them seem to accept every invite they get, especially if they are working on building a personal fan base.


What is meant by 'better shows'? After all SOI, PIW etc with 'star skaters come on and do their star turns' mentality don't put much effort into team numbers (which are often quite... err, yes well), but then they depend heavily on the 'names' they can attract.

What's specific about talking shows on a figure skating forum: we talk about money, we don't talk about art
Anyway, this is an interesting subject and I have something to bring to the table: this is a YouTube video summary about best-earning competitive figure skaters in the year 2023 in terms of prize money. This is an open question about how accurate this data is (these are gross estimates, not the actual money that a skater has in the bank) but it can provide an overall idea about the money in the business. So, for a top podium finisher, the approximate gross income is about hundred thousand dollars yearly. Not that bad at all... unless we compare it to the aforementioned 1973 contract of Janet Lynn.

Now, talking about the shows specifically, according to the Google, the financial difference between a top show company and an ice show company is: the estimated gross revenue of Champions on Ice is one to five million dollars yearly, while the estimated gross revenue of Cirque du Soleil was 1,5 billion yearly before covid.

Questions? Thoughts? Observations?

 

[Anna K.]

I think it really depends on where you look. Japan seems to be the opposite of US in this. Ice show market is thriving there and even if it got overheated at some point, it was just due to too many hands reaching for the same huge but not unlimited cake

Could you, please, specify what is setting the limits or what the limiting factors are?

I don't know what is meant here by Cirque-du-Soleil kind of shows. Literally speaking, I think OTOH these shows have very different audiences, and do not really overlap much with those featuring current and former competition stars and champions. So this is really a completely different discussion.

Thus far, Cirque du Soleil has created two ice shows: Crystal (2017) with Kurt Browning and Benjamin Agosto in their creative team, and Axel (2019). I believe that this belongs to the exact discussion we are having here.

 

[KiraraChin]

But to answer the main question regarding those shows where skaters at least potentially overlap - I think OP has a point in that skills currently dominating competitions and therefore most sought after there - i.e. jumps - are of not much use for shows because skaters mostly do not do too many and too difficult jumps in shows for fear of injury and lack of proper conditions, rink size, ice quality, lighting or rather lack of it etc. But even more importantly, jumps alone, without performance skills - not necessarily acting skills, but performing skills - to match, are not an element able to keep a show going and the audience involved in the long run. I think it is not an insignificant coincidence that Japanese skaters are best rounded and therefore able to do well in both worlds. But the well rounded male skaters are more and more an endangered species. With the current emphasis on more and more jumping and less and less actual skating in men competitions, I do think these two realms fall more and more apart. Of course, there will always be a segment of the public who just come to see big names and comp winners, no matter what they are able to show. But I do think emphasis is shifting atm. For me, the ice show realm is currently much more interesting and creative than the competition realm. It would be interesting to know if the audience start to drift in two different directions, and it is not the same people buying tickets to comps and to shows any more. Which I suspect might be more and more the case. With the performance-focused skaters having less and less chances to win against the big jumpers, they might be moving faster to the show realm which is more welcoming and offering better rewards for their kind, using competitions just to make their name known enough to secure them a place in shows. Which would make the division even sharper and the gap even wider with big jumpers winning competitions but not able to draw real big crowds therefore less and less attractive for the shows. We'll see.

You hit the nail in the head here, and to give a practical example: at last year's Nationals, several people reported that the male skater with by far the highest number of support banners in the crowd was Kazuki Tomono. Granted, the competition was happening in his hometown Osaka, but there is no doubt that his popularity comes from his performance skill, which was honed through many different shows, rather than competition results.

 

[TallyT]

What's specific about talking shows on a figure skating forum: we talk about money, we don't talk about art

I am reminded of what playwright and literary immortal George Bernard Shaw is said to have told Hollywood studio head Samuel Goldwyn, "There is this difference between you and me: You are only interested in art and I am only interested in money."

 

[Skating91]

The shows do really well in countries like Russia, and their females and pairs are still the best in the world. The Russian women are suited to these shows with such a focus on ballet and various dance genres in their training from young age. It makes them really versatile in what they can perform, able to communicate with their entire bodies rather than just looking at how deep that edge was, etc. They are really like actors or professional dancers as much as they are figure skaters.

Malinin's form has probably suffered a little by performing in shows between competitions, but he's also become a little bulkier (just normal male aging not a laziness thing) so maybe jumping is just harder now and he needs to simplify the content.

I have no doubt he won't be doing shows between competitions next season.

I think if ice shows in North America or European ice shows had a number of skaters who were part skater/actor/dancer while scoring some of the highest scores in the world in competition, figure skating shows would be a hot ticket. Look at what Hanyu does. Extraordinary!

 

[Magill]

Thus far, Cirque du Soleil has created two ice shows: Crystal (2017) with Kurt Browning and Benjamin Agosto in their creative team, and Axel (2019). I believe that this belongs to the exact discussion we are having here.

Maybe they were on the creative team but were they performing on or above the ice?
Crystal and Axel were multi disciplinary circus shows by a well-established and renown circus company expanding to a new icy territory while not giving up on their traditional one i.e. circus as such, with skaters added as just one of many groups of performers, and correct me if I am wrong but I am not aware of any of the top names of 2017 or 2019 actually performing there, or were they? Reading between the lines I can also see and appreciate the difference in advertising their show as featuring "world class skating" - as they did - but not "world class skaters" - as they didn't? To me it's rather a circus show - elaborate and top notch in their genre as Cirque was - looking for new ways to expand and monetize and not an ice show as such.
And I am not sure how successful it was in the eyes of the organizers in the end of the day anyway cause it seems after these two attempts they gave up on the idea and did not return to it since 2019, or did they?

Cirque du Soleil CRYSTAL : Touring Show. See tickets and deals | Cirque du Soleil

Buy tickets for Cirque du Soleil CRYSTAL - A breakthrough ice experience. Witness world-class ice skating, surreal aesthetics and artistic prowess fuse together. Book now!

www.cirquedusoleil.com

First live action thriller by Cirque du Soleil will premiere at Luxor in Las Vegas in Fall 2019

Cirque du Soleil Entertainment Group is excited to announce R.U.N – a groundbreaking new show and the entertainment group’s first live action thriller, premiering at Luxor this fall.

www.cirquedusoleil.com

 

[rabidline]

What do you think? Are competitive skating and sports skating still working hand-in-hand and developing in the same direction or are they taking separate directions and attracting different segments of public?

I'm more used to following the Japanese ice show calendar in the last 6-7 years, so from my perspective they have ice shows there that are actually designed to support the Japanese competitive season. Most of the shows are during the summer where there are no competitions, and then there are shows where top skaters "debut" their new competitive programs, so the value to go to those ice shows was to see new programs of the skater for the first time, before competitions (and wish them well for the upcoming season). I believe some skaters use that experience and the audience feedback to develop their competitive programs. The skaters can also get advice from seniors / choreographers who are also working in the same show for their programs.

Those kind of shows do carry pros and cons, though. Because it does impact the fitness and health of the skaters. Many Japanese skaters have gotten injured or compromised their health doing shows. We can even see some of the impact this season (Kao Miura, Kazuki Tomono, Mai Mihara), especially for skaters who "adds" shows they don't usually do. With 2026 Olympics closing in, and some of the skaters already carrying existing injuries, I can see them prioritizing health and focusing on staying injury-free, meaning less top competitive skaters at ice shows (... and less ice shows with competitive programs...).

This is my opinion but I think skaters who are great performers will always be great performers regardless of whether they win any medals or not. So now it depends on whether there are anyone who would give them opportunities before they win those medals or regardless of them winning those medals or not. With the rise of various types of ice shows coming into prominence boosted with top names behind them, I think it does give competitive skaters something to strive for aside from playing second fiddle to the medalists. During my years observing the ice shows in Japan there were times where fans get very critical over who gets invited to where and downright insulting to those who are deemed to not have the hardware to be worthy to get invited to the show. With these new shows especially with new audience, it doesn't matter that much.

 

[rabidline]

You hit the nail in the head here, and to give a practical example: at last year's Nationals, several people reported that the male skater with by far the highest number of support banners in the crowd was Kazuki Tomono. Granted, the competition was happening in his hometown Osaka, but there is no doubt that his popularity comes from his performance skill, which was honed through many different shows, rather than competition results.

On Kazuki: aside from his performance skills I also think he's a skater with a lot more experience and show performances in comparison to the younger skaters. His Worlds 2018 performance was the catalyst: he's been almost always appearing in PIW, DOI and The Ice every year after, before scoring the Fantasy on Ice invite as well as the Ice Explosion / Kassouya / Hyoen invites / casting. I think the younger skaters just don't have those kind of opportunities yet, and many of them came into prominence right during the pandemic, making it hard for the fans to see them live and connect with them emotionally.

 

[Magill]

What's specific about talking shows on a figure skating forum: we talk about money, we don't talk about art

Why not and who's we? I usually talk both, and quite a few posters do, too.
I think there is this popular belief that competitions are the serious stuff while shows are just a throw away side job to earn some bucks (or yens, actually, more often). But with so many great skaters leaving comps behind and giving their all to shows, I do not think this is true any more and it seems some have learnt it the hard way last year.

Anyway, this is an interesting subject and I have something to bring to the table: this is a YouTube video summary about best-earning competitive figure skaters in 2023 (prize money plus shows plus sponsors).

This YouTube video is only about prize money earned from competitions in a randomly selected year (including commercial competitions like WTT) but does not cover income from shows or sponsors. I don't think we really know - or need to know - all the details of the other revenues, but I guess the top earners could be quite different if they aimed to cover these other sources of income, too, as there would be no reason to limit the pool to those still participating in competitions. And I suspect that, all in all, in any given year Yuzuru, Yuna (when still active) and Mao have been making more than any of those featured here.

 

[KiraraChin]

On Kazuki: aside from his performance skills I also think he's a skater with a lot more experience and show performances in comparison to the younger skaters. His Worlds 2018 performance was the catalyst: he's been almost always appearing in PIW, DOI and The Ice every year after, before scoring the Fantasy on Ice invite as well as the Ice Explosion / Kassouya / Hyoen invites / casting. I think the younger skaters just don't have those kind of opportunities yet, and many of them came into prominence right during the pandemic, making it hard for the fans to see them live and connect with them emotionally.

I agree with this, and one can even think the turning point was winning junior Nats in 2017, which got him invitations to SOI, PIW and Dreams on Ice.

Still, I think he deserves credit for putting a lot of thought and effort into his performances in shows and exhibitions - think of the goated run of Daft Punk (2018-19), Freaks (2019-20), Bills (2021-22), What's your name? (2022-23), Jazz Machine (2023-24) and now Don't fall in love (2024-25).

Few skaters, at least among those competing currently, have such a repertoire of super popular exhibitions to draw from. Not to mention he is an asset in collabs and group numbers as well, known for giving ideas and teaching choreo to others.

As such, his brand as a show skater is now so strong that he doesn't even need competition results in order to be invited - last season he didn't make the National team and was still invited to SOI, Medalist on Ice and Dreams on Ice (he declined the invitation to the last two).

But yes, there is a price to pay: he's usually extremely busy and barely has time to rest, which can potentially result in burnout and injury. It's definitely not an easy path to thread and might not be for everyone.

 

[Anna K.]

This YouTube video is only about prize money

Thanks for the note. I corrected my post already. I posted the video sans re-checking and it turned out to be a different video than I thought it was

who's we?

I meant me and @TallyT but it's fine, you are also welcome!

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

To the original question: YES!

 

[Anna K.]

Maybe they were on the creative team but were they performing on or above the ice?
Crystal and Axel were multi disciplinary circus shows by a well-established and renown circus company expanding to a new icy territory while not giving up on their traditional one i.e. circus as such, with skaters added as just one of many groups of performers, and correct me if I am wrong but I am not aware of any of the top names of 2017 or 2019 actually performing there, or were they? Reading between the lines I can also see and appreciate the difference in advertising their show as featuring "world class skating" - as they did - but not "world class skaters" - as they didn't? To me it's rather a circus show - elaborate and top notch in their genre as Cirque was - looking for new ways to expand and monetize and not an ice show as such.
And I am not sure how successful it was in the eyes of the organizers in the end of the day anyway cause it seems after these two attempts they gave up on the idea and did not return to it since 2019, or did they?

Cirque du Soleil CRYSTAL : Touring Show. See tickets and deals | Cirque du Soleil

Buy tickets for Cirque du Soleil CRYSTAL - A breakthrough ice experience. Witness world-class ice skating, surreal aesthetics and artistic prowess fuse together. Book now!

www.cirquedusoleil.com

First live action thriller by Cirque du Soleil will premiere at Luxor in Las Vegas in Fall 2019

Cirque du Soleil Entertainment Group is excited to announce R.U.N – a groundbreaking new show and the entertainment group’s first live action thriller, premiering at Luxor this fall.

www.cirquedusoleil.com

In terms of economic activity, Cirque du Soleil is a company that produces live shows and as such it is compatible with any company that produces live shows.

In terms of the art, it is circus. In fact, it is the only stadiums-filling circus company of today, which can teach a lot if we draw a parallel with figure skating. The Art of Circus is very old. Many of its main disciplines (i.e. juggling, acrobatics, wire) have changed very little through the centuries, which means that a circus show normally includes a lot of repetition. It's art side is also placed deep in the niche because only die-hard fans are able to count the juggled objects or rotations in the air and clap when it matters. For general public, it's rather about costumes and cheap thrills here and there. No wonder that, as the range of available popular entertainment broadened closer to the end of 20th century, both popularity and prestige of the Art of Circus plummeted. I am viewing achievements of Cirque du Soleil as a lesson of what it takes for an old art to earn the prestige and popularity in modern times; but I can't demand that everybody else sees it the way I see it, of course.

Talking about the current state of Cirque du Soleil, the company went bankrupt during the covid pandemics; actually, Axel (2019) was the show that suffered the most (I somehow said on another thread that, in a business as risky as show business, one day you have a billion dollars and the other day you are broke; well, this is the real-life example). The company has already recovered; shows have returned and are touring again, including the ice show Crystal. The ice show Axel returned briefly in 2023; no announcements about its future yet.

 

[Anna K.]

To the original question: YES!

Can you tell about you experience of combining the Competitive and Pro skating? For many readers of this thread (including me), it could give a better picture of how it works