Is the interaction between competitive skating and show skating still mutually beneficial?

[Magill]

It is hard to evaluate the quality of sponsorships because this information isn’t made public. That’s why I cannot explain it in detail.

But even so, I understand that big companies does not necessarily means big sponsorships. Similarly, big companies and big sponsorships don’t necessarily mean equal monetary value.

You mentioned Shoma’s Mizuno and Toyota as top sponsors that give him very high visibility. I disagree. Mizuno gives him high visibility, but does Toyota makes ads with him? AFAIK, no. They use him in their talkshow events instead. In Yuzu’s case, it’s his Ajinomoto sponsor. Ajinomoto is a huge company in Japan, but his involvement there is less than his (ex) Kose’s one.

The sponsorship value will differ based on the skaters as well. Say, Yuma’s Nojima, Shoma’s Mizuno, and Yuzu’s (recent) Haier and Aqua give them high visibility (the sponsors display their images in retail places). However, I am certain that out of all three Yuzu got highest payment. However, I don’t have data to confirm it so it is best to not go into details.

(And then there is skaters’ agency and their cut from the sponsorships as well. At the end, we don’t know for sure how much money these skaters got.)

As for skaters going to do show skating to have fun and try new things… I have to apologize first, but my opinion on this is a harsh one. I am not paying a premium price to go to an ice show and see skaters having fun (fun here being to tone it down, get relaxed, goofing around with other skaters) and trying new things. I am going to an ice show to see the best performance they are capable of. As Yuzu himself said, “People who came today might not be able to attend again. That is why I have to give my all every time.”

My thoughts exactly on the subject, fully agree!
Quality and quantity are two different things but not all contracts even with the same sponsor are the same, and the details of each such contract are often confidential. So it is a difficult topic to have an informed discussion on.
Both sponsorship contracts and show payments are negotiated individually, and the former may cover lots of non-monetary details which might be of utmost importance to the parties though not necessarily impressive to the public. We really have no way to know. I am pretty sure Yuzu is the highest paid skater in both fields atm, and not just in Japan, based on his popularity and selling power, and some words leaked here and there by show organizers. But what is the difference between him and others? I suspect it is huge, but how big? Here's from Ilia Averbukh, Russian show organizer, on the matter, as an example from a business insider:



AFAIK Yuzu is also the only one among the top Japanese skaters who did not sign a contract with any big agency to represent him, and has his own family company to do that. So again, while this company probably gets a share, he is the CEO himself having taken over from his mum who was the manager when he was competing. It gives him, obviously, much more control but also much bigger share of any contract amount goes really to him, one way or another, increasing the potential difference in net earnings (minus agency commission). But, again, his position is quite unique and for most skaters it would be difficult to secure contracts without a big agency support.
For competitive skaters, there is also a share going to their federation, I think, maybe even for some time after they have retired, is that so?
And for those skaters with their own shows, apart from their individual sponsors, there are also the show sponsors on top, which may be the same or completely different companies, and have very different arrangements again, to make it even more complicated.
So it is really a very complex subject with no easy conclusions.

 

[gkelly]

To answer your question: Is show skating is a mandatory part of every skater career still? I would say no. It mostly depends on which career path they'll choose later on. Skaters who love to perform like Yuzu or Kazuki will go for ice show skating, skaters who choose career outside of skating will not necessarily do it unless they want the money. After all, skaters are doing what they can to offset the cost of the training and competing and it doesn't have to be show skating.

And still others may become professional skating coaches but not professional performers.

 

[Wynter]

I also think the value of a sponsor might not be only strictly monetary: in this day and age, having a strong personal brand gives you a huge advantage, so an association with a famous brand (like Shoma/Toyota) or a sponsor who constantly hypes you up (like Kazuki/Daiichi Juken Group) is also hugely beneficial in the long term.

As for having fun, I wasn't talking about being goofy lol but perhaps trying a different style or moves they usually don't do in competition. That can be fun for a skater, and who knows? Maybe the experience can lead to something else. Also, you can try your best whilst doing a fun/entertaining number! Many say comedy is actually harder to do than drama.

I think in general shows are a useful space to express yourself without the confines of the competition rules, so I see how skaters might be attracted to that in addition to the money.

It seems that your idea of “strong personal brand” is vastly different from mine.

For me, a strong personal brand doesn’t mean using a strong sponsors to promote your (the skaters) brand. It means creating a strong brand that people who hear your name will immediately recall your strength/characteristics. Some companies are sponsoring skaters based on the skaters’ personal branding. Some of Yuzuru’s sponsors (Phiten, TOWA, and Haier, for example) have said that they chose Yuzu to represent their company/products because Yuzu always evolving and strive to improve himself. Thus, that is Yuzu’s personal brand. After all, it is all about business (or, in some arrangements, CSR like Yuzu with ANA). This is a take and give situation and no sponsorships last forever. It will be a nightmare if, let’s say, people mention Shoma’s name and all people can tell is “Oh, the one’s sponsored by Toyota?” (BTW, I think Shoma’s arrangement with Toyota is also a CSR one and not a commercial one).

About “skaters are trying different styles or moves they don’t usually do in competitions” during ice shows. Competitions don’t limit on the type of programs a skater can do. Boyang Jin, for example, can do comedic and serious program well (e.g., his Spiderman and Crouching Tiger program). I also haven’t seen moves that skaters will do in ice shows but won’t do in competition. Skaters are doing backflip and acrobatics in both, sit twizzle remains rare, etc. FYI, I don’t consider skaters sitting on a chair and being pushed around by their friends as “moves they don’t usually do in competitions”.

 

[Mathman]

Even back then there will be difference in terms of how a skater can get the money during the show skating era. @Mathman said, Janet Lynn in 1973 was the highest-paid female athlete in the world even without an OGM and World title. Meanwhile, Shizuka Arakawa said that her 2004 WC title didn't give her much increase in her ice show payment--that was partially the reason why she stayed until 2006. Her payment increase 'much' only after her 2006 OGM. I sincerely think that arrangement is applicable in Japan even today. (BTW, Makabe, FAOI's producer, shared in one of his talk shows in 2023 or so, that Yuzuru's fee for FAOI was 100,000,000 yen (USD 640,000). Much higher than the competitive prize shared in the video linked by @Anna K.)

As late as the early 2000s Michelle Kwan had a million dollar a year contract with Disney (to make appearances at Disneyland, etc.) She also had a million dollar (for two years) deal with Chevrolet to appear in ads for cars. Not to mention US$ 900,000 per year from the USFSA and ABC TV for skating in the three annual made for TV "cheesefest" competitions (in addition to the $50,000 prize money if she won -- the same as a skater got for winning the world championship).

Coca-Cola was another deep-pockets sponsor. Leading up to the 2006 Olympics, they printed up a few hundred thousand cans of Coke with Michelle's picture on them. When she withdrew, the company was stuck with them and never, as far as I know, released them for sale to the public.

When Kristi Yamaguchi turned pro after the 1992 Olympics and World Championship, she sat down with her financial advisor (who was also her uncle) and tried to compute how much money she could make by continuing as an "amateur" versus what she could get by turning pro. It came out about the same. She decided to go the pro route, and negotiated a hard-ball deal with Stars on Ice that continued for a decade.

Nowadays only Hanyu is in such a leveraged position.

(Speaking of the U.S. Cheesefests, these were mostly for U.S. skaters but one time Shizuka Arakawa was training briefly in Detroit when a skater withdrew from the Detroit cheesiest that year. They rushed Arakawa onto the ice as a substitute, much to the delight of the audience.

Cheesefests were so called not because they were "cheesy" -- i.e, fake competitions -- but because one of the earliest ones was held in the U.S. state of Wisconsin, which bills itself as the Cheese Capital of America. Fans of their professional football team, the Green Bay Packers, wear cheese wedge hats at the games and refer to themselves as Cheeseheads.)

 

[KiraraChin]

It seems that your idea of “strong personal brand” is vastly different from mine.

For me, a strong personal brand doesn’t mean using a strong sponsors to promote your (the skaters) brand. It means creating a strong brand that people who hear your name will immediately recall your strength/characteristics. Some companies are sponsoring skaters based on the skaters’ personal branding. Some of Yuzuru’s sponsors (Phiten, TOWA, and Haier, for example) have said that they chose Yuzu to represent their company/products because Yuzu always evolving and strive to improve himself. Thus, that is Yuzu’s personal brand. After all, it is all about business (or, in some arrangements, CSR like Yuzu with ANA). This is a take and give situation and no sponsorships last forever. It will be a nightmare if, let’s say, people mention Shoma’s name and all people can tell is “Oh, the one’s sponsored by Toyota?” (BTW, I think Shoma’s arrangement with Toyota is also a CSR one and not a commercial one).

About “skaters are trying different styles or moves they don’t usually do in competitions” during ice shows. Competitions don’t limit on the type of programs a skater can do. Boyang Jin, for example, can do comedic and serious program well (e.g., his Spiderman and Crouching Tiger program). I also haven’t seen moves that skaters will do in ice shows but won’t do in competition. Skaters are doing backflip and acrobatics in both, sit twizzle remains rare, etc. FYI, I don’t consider skaters sitting on a chair and being pushed around by their friends as “moves they don’t usually do in competitions”.

I was talking about personal branding in relative terms, not absolute. Of course, few skaters have brand recognition with the general public these days, but one can still strive to build a stronger brand within the niche that is figure skating.

Being pushed in a chair by friends, for example, can not only be fun, but generate lots of buzz and anticipation on social media. I don't really see it as a bad thing lol

But, ofc, different strokes for different folks etc

 

[Wynter]

am pretty sure Yuzu is the highest paid skater in both fields atm, and not just in Japan, based on his popularity and selling power, and some words leaked here and there by show organizers. But what is the difference between him and others? I suspect it is huge, but how big? Here's from Ilia Averbukh, Russian show organizer, on the matter…

Gabriella Papadakis said FAOI is the highest paying ice show in Japan and that she is paid USD 100,000 to perform there. Not sure if it is only her share or if it has to be shared with Cizeron.

There’s a rumour from tabloids saying that Yuzu’s CM fee is at 100 million yen per ads, but it is from tabloids so I’ll take it with a huge pinch of salt. There’s also leaks from other places like Ohtani’s agency. Unconfirmed, of course.

Those old interview with Averbukh is legit even now. 35,000 for Tokyo Dome, then 14,000 in Saitama Super Arena.

For competitive skaters, there is also a share going to their federation, I think, maybe even for some time after they have retired, is that so?

Depends on the Fed. For Japanese skaters, it is 10%. It ends once the skaters retired.

And still others may become professional skating coaches but not professional performers.

Why not both like Lambiel and Orser?

 

[gkelly]

Why not both like Lambiel and Orser?

They can. Many do.

My point was that performing in shows as a pro is not mandatory for skating professionals. It's not either/or perform in shows or leave the sport entirely. There are other ways to stay in the sport professionally without performing, if that's not what the skater wants to do.

And of course lesser known skaters have fewer opportunities to get hired to perform in shows even if they want to.

 

[Wynter]

Thank you for this whole very interesting post and, yes, please share in more detail what you have in mind, I'm sure I'm not the only one here curious to know.

Re: Current (professional) ice shows market situation in Japan—seen mostly from business perspective

Background information first: When I was in Japan last December, I met and discussed with a local person about Yuzu’s shows (non-FS fans who knows about Yuzu). We discussed about tickets price, and she was surprised that the ticket price to Echoes is between 15,000-32,000 yen (USD 97-206), saying that most concert tickets in Japan are less than 10,000 yen (USD 64). For comparison, other ice shows tickets in Japan are priced as follows (prices taken from the websites):

Kassouya: 4,500-15,000 yen (USD 29-97)
One Piece on Ice: 8,000-32,000 yen (USD 51-206)
PIW: 4,500-28,000 yen (USD 29-180)
Stars on Ice: 9,000-30,000 yen (USD 58-193)
BISF25: 1,500-100,000 yen (USD 10-644)
Hyoen: 13,000-39,000 yen (USD 84-251)

Meaning, in general, there is a high entry barrier for non FS fans to go to ice shows.

Since the number of ice shows in Japan keep increasing each year, I imagine there are some ways done to keep these shows profitable even when most of the shows are not a sold out. (IIRC, Dai said he wanted to invite foreign skaters to his show but he decided to invite local skaters instead because it is cheaper. He also said that he drastically reduced his fee for Kassouya. There is also some grants given by the government if the show is considered as ‘one of a kind’, hence the superlatives used to describe the show—I think BISF25 might choose this route, Mao got many corporate sponsors for her ice shows, PIW uses existing rink to save ice making costs, etc).

Note: Yuzu’s shows, AFAIK, is an outlier and don’t have such issues. He can sold out most (if not all) of his shows, he has corporate sponsors to help finance his shows, and he partners with Asahi and BeyondLive to do live and delayed streaming, etc.

Back to the topic. The thing is, there are so many ice shows in Japan but (in most cases) there are same 3-4 skaters skating the same program (or at most 2-3 different programs) across multiple ice shows.

The higher entry barrier to ice shows mentioned above means the people who go to the ice shows are (mostly) FS fans. Or specific skaters’ fans. Which are not that many to begin with. However, when given too many shows, fans then can be picky in selecting which shows to attend. After all, money doesn’t grow on trees. As the result, these fans are spread thin and none of the shows sold out.

With lack of commercial success, it will be difficult to these shows to secure corporate sponsors or live (or at least delayed) streaming. And, this will ultimately lead to the amount of fee received by performing skaters. When you put the decorated skaters and young, non-medaled skaters in the same show, naturally those with medals will get more cut since ‘they can drew the audience’. But when the pie is small, how much (money) is left to the youngsters?

Am I rambling too much or being incoherent? It’s late at night in here lol. But yeah, that’s my concern.

Editing to add that in one of interviews with Mao’s (IIRC) ensemble skaters, one of the skaters said that they have to work 2-3 jobs so they can keep skating in ice shows (CMIIW, I read the article in passing and didn’t save the link). With that in mind, I can’t say skating in ice shows in Japan as a non-medalist skater is a good career choice—at least in terms of financial compensation.

 

[NanaPat]

I also haven’t seen moves that skaters will do in ice shows but won’t do in competition.

There are a lot, especially in pairs. Some are old (Detroiter, head-banger) and some new. Duhamel/Radford came up with new lifts and a cool hybrid throw-SBS jump sequence. They probably would have done more if they had skated in shows together for longer.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

With that in mind, I can’t say skating in ice shows in Japan as a non-medalist skater is a good career choice—at least in terms of financial compensation.

Although there may be some differences in professional skating opportunities between Japan, Europe and the rest of the world, I believe this applies to most show skaters everywhere. Like people in other artistic careers, they do it because they enjoy it. The ones I know supplement their income with jobs inside (e.g. coaching) or outside of skating. Some newly retired young skaters might just do shows for a couple of seasons as a sort of sabbatical before pursuing higher education or other long-term career plans (which may still involve show skating, but mixed in with other things).

 

[TallyT]

Many thanks @Wynter for your information on Japanese shows! I imagine that the nuts and bolts of the Russian circuit are different again from that and the West.

She also participated in Friends on Ice last summer, and she’s scheduled to appear in Stars on Ice Japan, I think.

Which means that with any luck there will either be a stream or TV coverage.

The sponsorship value will differ based on the skaters as well. Say, Yuma’s Nojima, Shoma’s Mizuno, and Yuzu’s (recent) Haier and Aqua give them high visibility (the sponsors display their images in retail places). However, I am certain that out of all three Yuzu got highest payment. However, I don’t have data to confirm it so it is best to not go into details.

That's a good point, any sponsor who pays a lot would want to use the skater's image and presence as much as possible so high visibility (within reason, we had a cricketer here years ago who signed every sponsorship deal imaginable, and then vanished quickly because the public got totally sick of seeing him) is a good thing for them.

As for skaters going to do show skating to have fun and try new things… I have to apologize first, but my opinion on this is a harsh one. I am not paying a premium price to go to an ice show and see skaters having fun (fun here being to tone it down, get relaxed, goofing around with other skaters) and trying new things.

The ones who treat it as a paid vacation and don't even learn the group numbers properly really annoy me.

And of course lesser known skaters have fewer opportunities to get hired to perform in shows even if they want to.

But some like Elladj Balde do (and that before his social media fame) because of their sheer entertainment value!

I think though we have veered a little in concentrating on what happens after retirement from competition (mea culpa too, after all talking about shows in Japan does bring in those who no longer compete because they are the biggest show stars and not just because they have more time for shows. Same as far as I can see with Russia.)

I'm not sure that doing a lot of shows during the competitive season is such a good idea )although money money money, and publicity-wise it's probably the best time) but in the off-season it's a good way to keep appearing before audiences?

 

[Mathman]

Am I rambling too much...?

A thousand times no. All this detail is quite fascinating.

 

[synesthesia]

There are a lot, especially in pairs. Some are old (Detroiter, head-banger) and some new. Duhamel/Radford came up with new lifts and a cool hybrid throw-SBS jump sequence.

As for having fun, I wasn't talking about being goofy lol but perhaps trying a different style or moves they usually don't do in competition. That can be fun for a skater, and who knows? Maybe the experience can lead to something else.

I think in general shows are a useful space to express yourself without the confines of the competition rules, so I see how skaters might be attracted to that in addition to the money.

I would also include things like the integration of aerial acrobatics (as Zhiganshina and Gaszi or Mao Asada and Ryo Shibata have done) or singing, (voice) acting and floor dance, areas that are not part of competitive skating, but that skaters can explore in some cross-genre shows.

 

[Mathman]

There are a lot, (of special show moves that you won't see in competition) especially in pairs. Some are old (Detroiter, head-banger) and some new.

The whole sub-genre of adagio skating is still available for pairs (though not as popular as it once was). Over the years this specialty has provided for lots of small-venue opportunities, for instance on cruise ships and even night clubs, where a small patch of ice can be quickly installed and then taken down for the next act.

Headbangers and Detroters are done while turning in one place (sometimes with the man on two feet), which is why they are not ISU-sanctioned skating moves. But the performances can be can be both pretty and ooh, ah, dangerous-looking.

There is currently a somewhat well-known adagio team under contract with Disney ofnIce (husband and wife William and Adriene Ott) who are quite popular with audiences and derive a steady income, I think.

 

[synesthesia]

Background information first: When I was in Japan last December, I met and discussed with a local person about Yuzu’s shows (non-FS fans who knows about Yuzu). We discussed about tickets price, and she was surprised that the ticket price to Echoes is between 15,000-32,000 yen (USD 97-206), saying that most concert tickets in Japan are less than 10,000 yen (USD 64). For comparison, other ice shows tickets in Japan are priced as follows (prices taken from the websites):

Kassouya: 4,500-15,000 yen (USD 29-97)
One Piece on Ice: 8,000-32,000 yen (USD 51-206)
PIW: 4,500-28,000 yen (USD 29-180)
Stars on Ice: 9,000-30,000 yen (USD 58-193)
BISF25: 1,500-100,000 yen (USD 10-644)
Hyoen: 13,000-39,000 yen (USD 84-251)

Meaning, in general, there is a high entry barrier for non FS fans to go to ice shows.

It also means that the entry barrier is lower for shows like PIW, Kassouya and BIS F25, as they have set the lowest price category precisely with the aim of encouraging non-skating fans who are unsure if they are interested in ice shows to buy tickets, which is an openly communicated aspect of their marketing strategies.






A few corrections and additions:

Since the number of ice shows in Japan keep increasing each year, I imagine there are some ways done to keep these shows profitable even when most of the shows are not a sold out. (IIRC, Dai said he wanted to invite foreign skaters to his show but he decided to invite local skaters instead because it is cheaper. He also said that he drastically reduced his fee for Kassouya. There is also some grants given by the government if the show is considered as ‘one of a kind’, hence the superlatives used to describe the show—I think BISF25 might choose this route, Mao got many corporate sponsors for her ice shows, PIW uses existing rink to save ice making costs, etc).

He said that hiring foreign skaters is more expensive than employing an exclusively Japanese cast. He also said that he initially considered holding Ice Explosion with foreign skaters again before coming up with the concept for Kassouya. However, he did not say he wanted to invite foreign skaters to Kassouya. On the contrary – the idea was to create a show with an exclusively Japanese cast with the long-term goal to establish his own skating company (comparable to Mao’s tour companies or more or less to the PIW ensemble). That branding is also reflected in the show title “Kassouya”, which is difficult to translate into other languages (it roughly translates to “skating craftsmen”), which is supposed to symbolise a kind of performance group. Kassouya also does a lot more to reduce costs, e.g. with regards to its personnel - Dai is in charge of many aspects from casting to marketing, music selection and show production. The music editing is done by Kana. The ensemble choreographies are created by Yuma Suzuki, who became a good friend of his through Hyoen.

Here is an excerpt from an interview conducted after the shows in Fukuoka, with a bit of information on how the idea for Kassouya was born and in which Dai reflects on how to expand employment opportunities for professional skaters/skaters without significant international achievements (taking into account the fact that in the current ice show environment, it takes notable competitive results to make a living from professional skating alone):

https://goetheweb.jp/person/article/20240302-daisuke-takahashi-04

Daisuke Takahashi's dream of establishing a company. In an era when skaters can make a career out of figure skating, even if they don't win any world medals.

Figure skater Daisuke Takahashi is gradually making moves to bring the appeal of figure skating to more and more people, and to help skaters who have difficulty reaching the top as competitors but want to become professionals. In the fourth article of the interview series, Takahashi discusses his entertainment concept based on ice shows.


The prices and formats of ice shows are changing.

Of course, some of the world's top athletes, like Takahashi, combine both technique and artistry. Current active athletes such as Shoma Uno and Yuma Kagiyama are examples. However, when it comes to competition, it is undeniable that they inevitably concentrate on high difficulty jumps and technical aspects that can earn them points. Whenever he thinks about this, Takahashi says there is a story he remembers.

“I heard that in the past, when ballet also focused on 'technique', the fans fell away, but when they started focusing on 'expression' again, the fans came back. When you look at figure skating as entertainment, skaters lose the ability to jump as they get older, but their skating and expressive skills improve as they work harder and harder. As a result, if you want to skate professionally for a long time and be a skater who will be watched for a long time, you need to have a solid foundation in order to be on the stage for a long time. In that sense, on one hand it is important to aim for the top of the active ranks, but on the other hand, I think it would be good to have a place to educate skaters who want to become professionals."

Currently, figure skaters need a world medal in order to become a professional and earn their living solely from ice shows. There is Japan's only ice show team, Prince Ice World, but even there, the number of members cannot be increased indefinitely. Takahashi wants to expand the possibilities for skaters who are not good at jumping but love expressing music, and who want to become professionals and skate in an attractive way, to make skating their career. Takahashi's desire led to the idea of “Kassouya” and his dream of establishing a company.

“Currently, Mao (Asada) is also running her own ice shows, and Mao's rink will be built in the near future. In the future, Mao's company will be based there, and mine will be in another place. If people have the option to say 'I want to join this company', they can aim to skate longer. As a first step, I think we have to change the ticket prices and the format of ice shows.”

Not content to rely on the popularity of skaters, Takahashi is determined to increase the number of fans through the appeal of skating itself: from 10 to 12 February 2024, many locals who were interested in skating after seeing the response on TV, advertising and social networking sites came to see the 'Kassouya' event in Fukuoka, and thoroughly enjoyed the appeal of powerful skating. Takahashi's vision seems to be on track and the first steps have been taken.

(IIRC, Dai said he wanted to invite foreign skaters to his show but he decided to invite local skaters instead because it is cheaper. He also said that he drastically reduced his fee for Kassouya. There is also some grants given by the government if the show is considered as ‘one of a kind’, hence the superlatives used to describe the show—I think BISF25 might choose this route, Mao got many corporate sponsors for her ice shows, PIW uses existing rink to save ice making costs, etc).

I'm not sure if you meant to refer to Kassouya and BIS-F25 or only to the latter here. As for Kassouya, there is no indication that the show is subsidised and I don’t think they need it with their low production costs and the involvement of various sponsors (6 overall, 3 of which are also Dai's personal sponsors), tbh. BIS F25, on the other hand, as you said, is such a candidate and has a respective reference on its website.

Since the number of ice shows in Japan keep increasing each year, I imagine there are some ways done to keep these shows profitable even when most of the shows are not a sold out. (IIRC, Dai said he wanted to invite foreign skaters to his show but he decided to invite local skaters instead because it is cheaper. He also said that he drastically reduced his fee for Kassouya. There is also some grants given by the government if the show is considered as ‘one of a kind’, hence the superlatives used to describe the show—I think BISF25 might choose this route, Mao got many corporate sponsors for her ice shows, PIW uses existing rink to save ice making costs, etc).

PIW uses a mix of existing rinks (e.g. Yokohama, Tokyo) and temporary ones (e.g. Shiga Saga*, Kagoshima, Nagasaki) (I posted an article about the ice preparation process at the Happiness Arena in the specific show thread). Shows that only or mainly use existing rinks are e.g. Friends on Ice, Dreams on Ice, Nagoya fs festival, Bloom on ice, Kassouya, Mao’s Thanks and Beyond tours.

The higher entry barrier to ice shows mentioned above means the people who go to the ice shows are (mostly) FS fans. Or specific skaters’ fans. Which are not that many to begin with. However, when given too many shows, fans then can be picky in selecting which shows to attend. After all, money doesn’t grow on trees. As the result, these fans are spread thin and none of the shows sold out.

With lack of commercial success, it will be difficult to these shows to secure corporate sponsors or live (or at least delayed) streaming. And, this will ultimately lead to the amount of fee received by performing skaters. When you put the decorated skaters and young, non-medaled skaters in the same show, naturally those with medals will get more cut since ‘they can drew the audience’. But when the pie is small, how much (money) is left to the youngsters?

A lot of shows are streamed live and/or delayed on various platforms – The Ice (live stream on pia-live, Zaiko and IIRC Rakuten in 2023), Bloom on Ice (live stream on pia-live), Hyoen (live tv broadcast on Nitteleplus, delayed stream on ePlus), One Piece on Ice (live stream on Z-AN-live), Nagoya fs festival (live stream on Swipe Video), Beyond (live stream on pia-live), Everlasting33 (live stream on U-NEXT) etc.

There are also quite a few shows that sold out or nearly did so in fairly recent years (e.g. PIW in Shiga Saga* and Nagasaki (2024/2025), many of Mao’s tour stops, Hyoen in 2017 and 2019 (Hyoen 2024 had a pretty good audience attendance as well), 8 out of 9 Kassouya performances in Fukuoka (2024), Friends on Ice 2024, Ice Explosion 2020). So some of these specific fans still seem to be numerous enough, but as we know, some shows are now also trying to tap into markets that are not yet oversaturated (geographically speaking) or to expand their audience to people who are not primarily or exclusively interested in figure skating by integrating other genres. Whether this will be sustainable in the long run remains to be seen...



*ETA: Apologies, I mixed up Shiga and Saga.

 

[Wynter]

A few corrections and additions:
He said that hiring foreign skaters is more expensive than employing an exclusively Japanese cast. He also said that he initially considered holding Ice Explosion with foreign skaters again before coming up with the concept for Kassouya. However, he did not say he wanted to invite foreign skaters to Kassouya.

I didn't say that Dai wanted to invite foreign skaters to Kassouya. The thinking process is like this: Show A --> with foreign skaters, too expensive, aborted. Continue to show B --> local skaters. I mentioned Kassouya specifically in terms of "he drastically reduced his fee" because that is what I remember from the articles.

I'm not sure if you meant to refer to Kassouya and BIS-F25 or only to the latter here.

Only for BISF25. Can't even recall if Kassouya uses the "one-of-kind superlatives" (those are the requirement needed to apply for the grant).

PIW uses a mix of existing rinks (e.g. Yokohama, Tokyo) and temporary ones (e.g. Shiga, Kagoshima, Nagasaki) (I posted an article about the ice preparation process at the Happiness Arena in the specific show thread). Shows that only or mainly use existing rinks are e.g. Friends on Ice, Dreams on Ice, Nagoya fs festival, Bloom on ice, Kassouya, Mao’s Thanks and Beyond tours.

This doesn't contradict my point of "ice show using existing rink to save (money) on ice making cost", but thank you for the addition.

The following part might be a bit OOT because it will be mostly about financials and business arrangements :

A lot of shows are streamed live and/or delayed on various platforms – The Ice (live stream on pia-live, Zaiko and IIRC Rakuten in 2023), Bloom on Ice (live stream on pia-live), Hyoen (live tv broadcast on Nitteleplus, delayed stream on ePlus), One Piece on Ice (live stream on Z-AN-live), Nagoya fs festival (live stream on Swipe Video), Beyond (live stream on pia-live), Everlasting33 (live stream on U-NEXT) etc.

Live TV broadcast is on a different category from the others you mentioned. That's why for Yuzu's example I separated Asahi from BeyondLive even though BeyondLive is using Asahi's camera crew (basically gives the same camera angle and all).

Live TV broadcast like Nitteleplus for Hyoen or CS Asahi for Echoes will pay for broadcasting rights to the show organizer. The value for such arrangement will be much bigger to those of the pay-per-view scheme because the consumer base is also much larger. Meanwhile, the pia-live, Zaiko, Rakuten, ePlus, BeyondLive, etc. are using pay-per-view scheme. AFAIK, for this scheme, the organizer will pay a certain fee to the platform (So it is the other way around, the organizer pay to the service provider instead). Usually, it will also involves profit sharing scheme, using base number for people who access the content. Naturally, for ice shows, the numbers will be much smaller. Thus, I don't think these two schemes are comparable in terms of revenue.

There are also quite a few shows that sold out or nearly did so in fairly recent years (e.g. PIW in Shiga and Nagasaki (2024/2025), many of Mao’s tour stops, Hyoen in 2017 and 2019 (Hyoen 2024 had a pretty good audience attendance as well), 8 out of 9 Kassouya performances in Fukuoka (2024), Friends on Ice 2024, Ice Explosion 2020). So some of these specific fans still seem to be numerous enough,

Again, in terms of revenue, not all 'sold out' are equal. You also need to look at the maximum capacity. For example, PIW in Shiga is located in Kinoshita Kansai Ice Arena, with 2,400 capacity. If you calculate the average revenue per performance for the show using the median ticket price (I am too lazy to calculate a more detailed revenue because that involves counting the number of seats per category, sorry ), then each show for PIW Shiga will generate 39.2 million yen per show if sold out (2,800x14,000 yen). Friends on Ice 2024 is located in Kose Shin Yokohama Skate Center with 2,500 capacity will generate 32.5 million yen per show (2,500x13,000 yen). In comparison, Yuzu's last show in Saitama generated 238 million yen per show (14,000x17,000 yen). That means, to get the same revenue level with Echoes, PIW Shiga will have to do 6 shows (doing 6 shows also means increased overhead cost that will affect the profit, etc.)

As for the number of specific fans, I have my own worry about this. How many of these fans are unique numbers? A sold out ice show with 5 performances (1,000 capacity) doesn't necessarily mean it has 5,000 unique people in attendance. How many of those are repeat customers? (Speaking from experience here, as I attended all two RE_PRAY shows in Yokohama and three Echoes of Life shows in Saitama).

 

[Anna K.]

I

I think though we have veered a little in concentrating on what happens after retirement from competition (mea culpa too, after all talking about shows in Japan does bring in those who no longer compete because they are the biggest show stars and not just because they have more time for shows. Same as far as I can see with Russia.)

I would say that this still belongs directly on topic. Even when there is focusing on specific aspects or on pro side only, it doesn't exclude interaction. Of course, competing skaters are keeping their eyes on the options after retirement, which may affect their program choices directly or indirectly.
Actually, the developments in the field of professional shows is the main reason why I started this topic. There are many discussions about how taking part in shows affects the performance of specific skaters but there are much fewer discussions that would give the whole picture of general practices and, accordingly, the options that skaters have.
Plus, let's not forget that pro skaters occasionally return to competitive skating with accrued confidence and experience. Just look at Nobunari Oda

The following part might be a bit OOT because it will be mostly about financials and business arrangements :

Same as above, I'd rate this as discussing specific aspects but not as OT, so... Please, keep it going! I'll join the discussion later on (or at least, I am an optimist hoping that I will )

Some skaters (including Kaori Sakamoto, the 3x World Champion) has limited ice show performances AND limited company sponsors.

That's why I was all eyes and ears after Kaori premiered her Chicago free skate in which she uses a theme from a musical and impersonates a character. I wondered if she did it deliberately to improve her show skating options. She never stated it directly (that's a fact; @synesthesia has made a post about her interviews on the subject) but I still suspect that secretly it might be the case. It's too hard to believe that this is but a coincidence.

 

[Wynter]

That's why I was all eyes and ears after Kaori premiered her Chicago free skate in which she uses a theme from a musical and impersonates a character. I wondered if she did it deliberately to improve her show skating options. She never stated it directly (that's a fact; @synthesia made a made a post about her interviews on the subject) but I still suspect that secretly it might be the case. It's too hard to believe that this is but a coincidence.

Kaori, IMHO, will be a good show skater. She has a cheerful personality, and she can also be ‘welcoming’ to the audience. What she doesn’t have is strong connection to land her into more ice shows.

But I think she has more upcoming shows this year so we’ll see.

 

[Anna K.]

There is one more bit which I want to throw in the discussion simply because I have the link on hand

Here is Daisuke explaining the Kassouya ticket prices in the NHK documentary (they talk about it at about 20:00; it has English subtitles): he says that the reason was the length of the show (Kassuoya is roughly 75 minutes without an intermission, while a regular show would be 2 to 2,5 hours with an intermission); the ticked prices were reduced because it would feel like but a half of an ice show that spectators would regularly watch.

Talking about other ticket prices listed in the above post by @Wynter, there is a tendency that story-driven shows (OPOI, Hyoen) have more expensive tickets, quote :

Kassouya: 4,500-15,000 yen (USD 29-97)
One Piece on Ice: 8,000-32,000 yen (USD 51-206)
PIW: 4,500-28,000 yen (USD 29-180)
Stars on Ice: 9,000-30,000 yen (USD 58-193)
BISF25: 1,500-100,000 yen (USD 10-644)
Hyoen: 13,000-39,000 yen (USD 84-251)

 

[Anna K.]

Back to the topic. The thing is, there are so many ice shows in Japan but (in most cases) there are same 3-4 skaters skating the same program (or at most 2-3 different programs) across multiple ice shows.

The higher entry barrier to ice shows mentioned above means the people who go to the ice shows are (mostly) FS fans. Or specific skaters’ fans. Which are not that many to begin with. However, when given too many shows, fans then can be picky in selecting which shows to attend. After all, money doesn’t grow on trees. As the result, these fans are spread thin and none of the shows sold out.

I think this is the key. This is the main limiting factor of the "not unlimited cake" mentioned earlier :

I think it really depends on where you look. Japan seems to be the opposite of US in this. Ice show market is thriving there and even if it got overheated at some point, it was just due to too many hands reaching for the same huge but not unlimited cake, so some were left without a piece big enough and had to leave, so to say.

If there are same 3-4 skaters skating the same program (or at most 2-3 different programs) across multiple ice shows, then of course the pool of potential spectators will run dry very soon.

However, it does not refer to story-driven shows or to shows that are unique and/or offer unique content because of other reason. So, this is logical that the number of shows with unique content is growing and so is the range of said content exceeding the usual demand of figure skating fans and becoming interesting also for fans of other arts and industries.
Here, we have both the problem and the solution on the table and, yes, it means that Japanese ice show market is thriving and developing excitingly