Is nostalgia shaping how we view figure skating?
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Then they should go watch skating from the 50s, 60s, much of the 70s, and much of the 80s.
And perhaps look up the definitions of 'very few', or 'most' and 'some'.
How many videos from those eras can some of you find btw? How much have you watched? Did you watch the rest of the Ice Dance competition from the year T/D won, as you linked there?
The videos linked here are all from the 80s (and Olympic gold winning). I'll add some skaters from the 70s - Cranston, Lynn, and Curry.
Do people recall the music Curry used for the Short Program in 1976, without looking it up?
Of the four decades I named, there would have been dozens of skaters, and hundreds of performances and programs. If one can name a handful someone thinks are any good... that's 'very few'.
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- Sep 23, 2020
Talking about skaters and programs from the 60s, the 70s, and the 80s not being particularly known now?
I bet in 60, 50 or 40 years from now not more than a handful of names and programs will be remembered of todays' lot, and that of the last decade or two. Videos might be still there, technology is indeed much better now than it was then, but how many of them will be ever watched by more than a handful of most dedicated (mostly ageing) fans, some ambitious skaters, and historians of the sport? I bet not many (we could even try to bet some names and titles, lol,
).
And, yes, I guess, being an OGM having won an Olympics (or two
) with an iconic program (or two ) might help to be remembered.
It is just the way passing of time and public memory work regardless of the quality of things forgotten....
I bet in 60, 50 or 40 years from now not more than a handful of names and programs will be remembered of todays' lot, and that of the last decade or two. Videos might be still there, technology is indeed much better now than it was then, but how many of them will be ever watched by more than a handful of most dedicated (mostly ageing) fans, some ambitious skaters, and historians of the sport? I bet not many (we could even try to bet some names and titles, lol,
).And, yes, I guess, being an OGM having won an Olympics (or two
) with an iconic program (or two ) might help to be remembered.It is just the way passing of time and public memory work regardless of the quality of things forgotten....
You said it yourself - the emphasis was on figures - a technical aspect.
Here's what I'd said.
Which, yes, the choreography/interpretation was quite a lot undercooked compared to the 1990s and early 2000s. Even in the present era, it's obvious the skaters are undergoing more actual dance training than before.
There are many more music choices and cultures represented in skating now than in those eras.
Even if you want to view it technically, well, the skaters of the eras earlier might have had better posture and blade to ice skills, but at the same time, they didn't have spins like some started attempting in the 1990s, they didn't use to do the multiple position changes like Kwan started popularizing in spirals, to say nothing about the jump content. Skaters like Petr Barna's and Browning's footwork hold up to this day, and were likely the blueprint of CoP step sequences.
This is even before we get to the offensive ideas we get to in skating of those previous eras, where I believe it very much was Cranston himself who used to recount how you weren't "supposed" to raise your arms above waist level, to present 'masculinity'.
It was silly. Well, frankly, some of it was offensive. It was limiting. I'm glad the 1990s changed much of the culture surrounding the artistic aspects of skating.
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- Jun 21, 2003
^ Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I for one am not thrilled by spins with many changes of edges and changes of positions. I'll take a Dorothy Hamill show-stopping upright scratch spin.
As for spirals, give me a Brian Boitano extended spread eagle. Michelle Kwan? Her spirals were satisfying not because of changes of edges and changes of position but because of the security and control of the running edge, held for an adequate length of time. Jumps? Are quads in the 2020s more exciting and pleasing to watch than doubles were 60 years ago? I guess I am more of a back-to-the-basics sort of fan.
As for spirals, give me a Brian Boitano extended spread eagle. Michelle Kwan? Her spirals were satisfying not because of changes of edges and changes of position but because of the security and control of the running edge, held for an adequate length of time. Jumps? Are quads in the 2020s more exciting and pleasing to watch than doubles were 60 years ago? I guess I am more of a back-to-the-basics sort of fan.
Is this what was happening in the 90s? Or early 2000s?
Jonathan Cassar, Takahiko Kozuka, just off the top of my head.
And how did she display the security of edge if not for the changes of positions and during the change of edge?
Which positions did she hold for an adequate amount of time if we're discounting her mastery over the change of edge? Because then it'd be 3 seconds on right forward inside edge position, 3 seconds on right forward outside edge position... Adequate?
Were quads in the 1990s more pleasing to watch than doubles were 60 years ago?
In the 2000s?
2010s?
Were triples?
I did make an argument about artistry there. Would you say anything about it instead of focusing on the technical which I didn't say anything about in the original post? I was talking about artistic skating there.
So we can say, for some, nostalgia affects how they view skating
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- Dec 9, 2019
I'm sure that I remember the Beijing Men winner's Short program, not even because I imposed on myself many rewatches to count candies, but out of resentment as a French who likes Aznavour very much, and particularly La Bohême. That was only four years ago! (To be honest, if I don't remember Yuma Kagiyama's programs either, I do remember Shoma Uno's even if I thought that Sholero was a miss, and some others; and I remember more Women.) Maybe that sense of nostalgia and vivid memories long after come when a program is... iconic? It's interesting too, to see what reminds for the General Public, after weeks or days of advertising for such or such.Talking about skaters and programs from the 60s, the 70s, and the 80s not being particularly known now?
I bet in 60, 50 or 40 years from now not more than a handful of names and programs will be remembered of todays' lot, and that of the last decade or two. Videos might be still there, technology is indeed much better now than it was then, but how many of them will be ever watched by more than a handful of most dedicated (mostly ageing) fans, some ambitious skaters, and historians of the sport? I bet not many (we could even try to bet some names and titles, lol,
And, yes, I guess, being an OGM having won an Olympics (or two
It is just the way passing of time and public memory work regardless of the quality of things forgotten....
This being said, I don't think that the feeling "it was better before" comes from one given Olympic, rather a series defining a period in each watcher's mind? In which, once again, the most forgettable parts get erased in time and we don't even remember that they have existed (or at least, most of us don't remember; because hypermnesia exists and I "suspect" the GOAT himself of some form of it); while we don't always have forgotten the most recent forgettable Skates or at least, remember that there have been such forgettable Skates.
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It would be good if people addressed the arguments directly instead of making strawmans based on semantics and choice of words, but I'd like to answer sarcastically - yes, I'm sure that eras rife with homophobia, racism, and extreme misogyny had outstanding, varied artistry and self-expression. Especially with the self-selection that school figures did, where poor countries and poorer athletes (pretty well correlated with race to begin) were disproportionately excluded, making fresher perspectives very difficult to find.
Maybe instead of 'silly' I should have gone and said 'bigoted and ridiculous' like I'd intended. Because it's true.
Maybe instead of 'silly' I should have gone and said 'bigoted and ridiculous' like I'd intended. Because it's true.
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it was Rachmaninov. Piano. I don't recall the specific piece.
It was a beautiful program, if I'm recalling correctly, with very very mild hiccups - a spin traveled - that sort of thing. My recollection is that Toller Cranston skated a humdinger of a short program and actually won that segment. Maybe I'm wrong - @el henry can correct me if I am.
You actually got it!
I bet you're a Curry fan.
Here for anyone who wants to watch.
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Oh yes. His Olympics - his and Dorothy Hamill and Rodnina and Zaitsev - well, also Pakhomova and Gorshkov, too, although I didn't appreciate them as much at the time - that was my introduction to figure skating.
It was a dream start to my addiction, and I've been chasing that high ever since.
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Indeed you are right my friend, Graduation Ball. Probably my favorite Toller program.
A somewhat crisper version from the 1976 OGs, because you can never have too much Graduation Ball:
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You got me there. Here she is doing 18 seconds of uninterrupted spiral in 1998. In fact, this whole program is a clinic on "gliding on edges." She even gives a little shimmy at the end as if to say, "And what did y'all think of that?!"
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Guilty as charged, your honor. To this day I well up with tears of nostalgia, almost thirty year on, when I rewatch that performance.So we can say, for some, nostalgia affects how they view skating
The one towards the end is uninterrupted and wonderful.You got me there. Here she is doing 18 seconds of uninterrupted spiral in 1998. In fact, this whole program is a clinic on "gliding on edges." She even gives a little shimmy at the end as if to say, "And what did y'all think of that?!"
The one you linked to is not
If you're discounting position changes.I liked her Lamento d'Arianna debut at Pros better, but wouldn't you say that a pro circuit boom during 1990s actively contributed towards better artistic aspects in skating?
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I think more than anything, the ending of school figures, which took many hours of practice, contributed to a focus on "artistic" skating in general, although I think people can have vastly different interpretations of that term. Of course, the pro circuit never included school figures - they wouldn't have made compelling television. And I've never heard of an ice show including them - even in olden times.
Everything is a tradeoff. We lost superior blade-to-ice skills for the sport in general, but we gained more emotionally engaging programs, more intense attention to choreography, more "acting on ice."
Whether the tradeoff was ultimately good for the sport is a matter of personal opinion.
You're not wrong, I think I've stated it elsewhere - the money saved up from ending school figures could be used for learning more dance styles, and better focus on choreography.
We all have 24 hours in the day. I think ending school figures is also related to increase in jump content. You're focusing less on figures, more on jumps.
Pro circuit helped too, because it meant skaters had constant exposure towards entertaining an audience.
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That was a masterful performance. She would have won the 1999 World Championship with that. On the other hand, I think that this performance more than anything else put the nail in the coffin of "Pro-Am" com[petitions. It was the "technical program" under the World Pro format that year. She did 7 triples.
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Anyway, about nostalgia the main point I wanted to make is that we don't have to go back to Toller Cranston or to Charlotte Oelschalgel. (By the way, note Michelle's "Charlotte" spiral in the linked program. Fans of Michelle and of Sasha Cohen had a fine old time debating which of the two deserves credit for resurrecting this move in modern times.
). I can see where someone might wax nostalgic over Yuna Kim versus Mao Asada -- we will never pass this way again!
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I have to confess that "acting on ice" is my least favorite aspect of figure skating. I personally am not engaged by someone putting on a blue gown and saying, "Look, I'm Cinderella." Nor dressing up in the fashion of a nineteenth century Russian aristocrat with, "Wanna see me do a triple Lutz in the style of Anna Karenina?"
Exception: Kurt Browning as Gene Kelly in "Singing in the Rain."
How's that for nostalgia? The end of the silent movie era and the arrival of talkies.
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Do videos of her even exist? Does anyone living even have a memory of her?
'Course we don't have to go back to the 1920s or 1970s for nostalgia. That was my point - I get nostalgia for the 90s much more
I do miss a good Charlotte stop/spiral.
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I was curious, so I went hunting. Nothing came up on YouTube, but this Facebook video came up on a Google search:
https://www.facebook.com/IceTheatreOfNewYork/videos/charlotte-stop/607295606759730/
Charlotte Oelschlägel only died in 1984, so I am sure lots of people remember her. I don't, as I was born just short of a year after her death. But it was interesting finding out about her.
For those that are interested, here is a whole article about her:
https://www.skateguardblog.com/2014/04/spotlight-on-charlotte-oelschlagel.html
Thank you @Mathman for bringing her up.
CaroLiza_fan
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