Ladies LP

[Spun Silver]

Here's a Japanese special feature on Mao's flutz and her journey to correct it.
[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzd5KRBhrWA&NR=1"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzd5KRBhrWA&NR=1

Thanks for sharing. OT but I just love Mao. Her purity and focus and inner strength in the face of superstardom and total media circus are just astounding. She really seems to love skating and to do all this from her own inner desire. And of course - she rules. Get ready, Yu Na!

Bennett, I also loved Miki's beautiful and more simple costume for Giselle. But I wish she would skate in black leotards (per Kozuka's example), She is one of those women who look devastating in black. She would look like Audrey Hepburn.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Di5XPllM18

You also make a good point about her choreography. I wonder if Morozov would let her go to Nichols or Wilson for editing of the program. I wish!

 

[*Sniper*]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO85kDrKwv0&feature=related
Mao does a combo, 3Lz and 3S. It's pretty clear that she does have a high, clean and aesthetically pleasing 3S if you follow her practice videos, one can only hope she lands them in competition to silence all the naysayers.

I don't know how you compare Yuna and Mao's jumps, but they are both aesthetically pleasing to me, Mao also has very tight, fast turns and good air position on her late program combos/jumps.

As for whether Mao still flutzes as badly, anyone care to do a slo-mo of her lutz?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eISi6eAiZzw

-edit-
Here's a Japanese special feature on Mao's flutz and her journey to correct it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzd5KRBhrWA&NR=1

Wow, Mao really corrected that flutz.
Good for her!!
For being a reigning world champ, she still seems very grounded and down to earth.
Can't wait to see her programs!

 

[fiercemao]

I have been refusing to get involved in the discussion of Yuna's flip/lip (whichever you call it), but what you have said is exactly what I have been thinking all this time. I have noticed a lot of other skaters whose flips are no different from Yuna's and do not get hit with a lip. What I'm afraid of is that this debate might get intensified after Mao's performance in Paris. She claims that she has corrected her flutz (Tarasova says that 7 out of 10 times Mao uses a correct edge now), and if she still gets called for a wrong edge, her overzealous fans will claim biased judging in favor of Yuna. If she doesn't get hit with a flutz, then Yuna's overzealous fans will likely bombard the youtube site with close-up slow-motion shots of Mao's lutz. I just hate even to think about this..

It's already unfair to other skaters. Yuna's LIP is called perfect while Miki's similar LIP is called LIP. The edge calls and underrotation calls are very subjective and silly. They need major overhaul.

 

[Andalusia]

Yes Mao has better positions but Yu-na has much better musical interpertation and expression. They are just about even artistically for me.

Mao's combos have been downgraded though on several occassions. Her triple flip/triple toe is not as solid as Yu-na's is nor was Moa's double axel/triple toe. And her triple flip/triple loop has been downgraded on many occassions too.

At her best with everything fully rotated and the triple axel landed nobody can beat Mao.. However, the fact is that Mao's triple axel is inconsistent i think she landed only one clean one last year and her 3/3's being rotated can be inconsistent too.

No Yu-na can't do a triple flip/triple loop combo (maybe that will change) but I bet Mao would have trouble with a salchow combo.

That's because those combos are brand new for Mao. I doubt Yu-Na's 3F-3T looked that fantastic the first season she tried it. Mao should have no trouble mastering those combos perfectly if she can do the 3F-3L and other jumps and combos so well, more often than not.

It's just a theory, but I wonder if judges have purposely marked Mao down and given her all those questionable URs in the past because they know that if she fires on all cylinders, no one will be able to beat her. No, not even Carolina, who we know why the judges prop up.

You say Yu-Na interprets music better than Mao. Well, that is subjective. That Mao has more finished positions is something that can be judged objectively. I thought Yu-Na had an ugly spiral position in her spirals at this SA. The change of edge is much improved, but her leg is bent in the position whereby she lifts her skate with her hand to resemble a Biellmann position and that makes it unattractive to me. Kimmie and Miki do it as well, with Kimmie being the worst out of the three. Contrast theirs with Mirai and Mao's, for example.

Also, Mao has improved the free leg position in her layback and Yu-Na hasn't. And I could be wrong about this, but Mao's triple axel is looking more consistent than ever as of late.

 

[bekalc]

That's because those combos are brand new for Mao. I doubt Yu-Na's 3F-3T looked that fantastic the first season she tried it. Mao should have no trouble mastering those combos perfectly if she can do the 3F-3L and other jumps and combos so well, more often than not.

It's just a theory, but I wonder if judges have purposely marked Mao down and given her all those questionable URs in the past because they know that if she fires on all cylinders, no one will be able to beat her. No, not even Carolina, who we know why the judges prop up.

You say Yu-Na interprets music better than Mao. Well, that is subjective. That Mao has more finished positions is something that can be judged objectively. I thought Yu-Na had an ugly spiral position in her spirals at this SA. The change of edge is much improved, but her leg is bent in the position whereby she lifts her skate with her hand to resemble a Biellmann position and that makes it unattractive to me. Kimmie and Miki do it as well, with Kimmie being the worst out of the three. Contrast theirs with Mirai and Mao's, for example.

Also, Mao has improved the free leg position in her layback and Yu-Na hasn't. And I could be wrong about this, but Mao's triple axel is looking more consistent than ever as of late.

Yu-na has been doing her triple flip/triple toe as long as Mao has been doing her triple flip/triple loop... And her 3/3 has never been called underrotated... And I don't think the better expression is subjective nor is Kim's faster speed.

As for the triple axel maybe it's more consistent in competition, but the fact is the last time Mao competed the triple axel, she popped it. So in order for me to say it's competition consistent, she has to start landing it consistently in competition, and for the last two years it's not been consistent.

And I don't think the judges are purposely trying to hurt Mao with underrotations.

Heck, I'm AGREEING with you that a clean Mao would win. All I'm saying is that how likely is a clean Mao (how likely is a clean Yu-na too to be fair but I think it's more likely) If Kim is healthy.

If Yu-na wants to have free reign at beating Mao she really needs a triple axel/quad. But quite frankly given how inconsistent Mao's triple axel is, well in all honesty it may be worth not risking her fragile body. So why not take the gamble that Mao's not going to hit the triple axel.. Because Mao doesn't have a high competition success rate with that jump. Now if Mao gets it consistent, we have another matter. And consistent I mean (Hitting it at least 75% or even 50% of the time cleanly IN competition)

Right now until I see Yu-na remain healthy for an entire season, my money is on Mao.. BUT if Yu-na is healthy at the Olympics, and Mao's triple axel is still not consistent, my money will be on Yu-na.

 

[turtle]

Tarasova said if Mao skates clean, nobody can beat her. Put your faith in Tarasova.

Yu Na is overly overrated. She still does not have a loop, and she is a lipper.

So you think Mao is the only one who deserves the high scores she consistenly receives despite her mistakes and flaws. Please note that I'm not saying that Mao is overrated. I just don't appreciate the attitude of those people who think that they can praise their skaters by bashing other skaters. If you see the judges' protocols you will find that many skaters including Rachel, Mirai, and Yukano received higher scores than Yuna on some elements and rightfully so. If you don't like Yuna receiving scores much higher than others, blame the COPs.

These overzealous fans of Mao and Yuna makes me want to hope for a day when their skaters will be beaten by underdogs who they have thought they couldn't possibly challenge their star skaters. Then, all of sudden we will have more overrated skaters.

 

[puhijun]

As for the subjective judgment against skaters, I think it's like in the music competition where it can be subjective (by PCS) but yet the more famous you are, the more critical judges going to be (on TCS), because they are setting up the standard of their rule. But it is also very unrealistic to think that all 10 judges were favoring Yuna over other 10 skaters.

I think Yuna, in my subjective opinion, has performed really well with the music, possibly better with the SP than LP that I couldn't really see from the skaters who skated in SA. Arakawa explained that Yuna is a skater who doesn't get damaged by the popping/falling from the jump, because she can make up these scores from her interpretation and artistry (from her PCS).

In my opinion, PCS is very subjective where the TCS is not.

 

[DragonPhoenix]

Miki is one of those women who look devastating in black.

:agree:

My take on Miki's programs. I liked her SP alot. And I felt her detailed artistry was on full display there, especially some of her hand movements, were very fluid, smooth, and interesting. IMO

I wish she would add some of that to her LP. Because her LP didn't have much choreography, and seemed to be mostly jumps ( as beautiful as they are to watch ).

Anyways, it will be fun to see what she does with the programs throughout the season.

 

[bekalc]

So you think Mao is the only one who deserves the high scores she consistenly receives despite her mistakes and flaws. Please note that I'm not saying that Mao is overrated. I just don't appreciate the attitude of those people who think that they can praise their skaters by bashing other skaters. If you see the judges' protocols you will find that many skaters including Rachel, Mirai, and Yukano received higher scores than Yuna on some elements and rightfully so. If you don't like Yuna receiving scores much higher than others, blame the COPs.

These overzealous fans of Mao and Yuna makes me want to hope for a day when their skaters will be beaten by underdogs who they have thought they couldn't possibly challenge their star skaters. Then, all of sudden we will have more overrated skaters.

I know that I have the reputation of being a huge Yu-na fan. But I really love Mao Asada too... I want Yu-na to win Worlds this year so they can both be World Champions, and I'll be happy with whoever wins the Olympics. (I go back in forth if I want her or Mao to win that)

 

[fourclover]

I thought I was going to hate Yu-na's LP music - I stated so before SA - but I changed my mind. This is the most fitting best music Yu-na ever skated to. Her costumes were totally fitting too. Maybe Wilson and Orser reads this forum? ^^ About Yu-na's LIP controversy, her LIP-look-alike-sometimes is not as obvious as Mao's FLUTZ which is visible from fifty feet away with naked eyes to a non-expert as myself. Yu-na's flip can be debatable and only so in slow motion and magnification. So, yeah, I'd say it's unfair to treat them the same. There are a lot of skaters with questionable FLIP's and don't get called for that. Unless it's obvious lipping like Kimmie's or Miki's (previously), it shouldn't get called on.

I can't wait to see Mao's new dress and program! I always said that Mao's camp had better music and costume than Yu-na, but for the first time, I'm happy with Yu-na's music and costume too.

 

[Andalusia]

And I don't think the better expression is subjective nor is Kim's faster speed.

Um, you think musical expression can be judged objectively? Wow, I'd love to hear your criteria for that one.

I know that Yu-Na has been doing her 3F-3T for as long as Mao has been doing her 3F-3L. What I meant was that Mao's 3F-3T isn't perfect probably because it's a new combo for her, and since she's an amazing jumper I wouldn't be surprised if she masters that combo perfectly with time. Same goes with the 2A-3T. Yu-Na's 3F-3T might not have been deemed underrotated the first season she tried it, but I doubt it was as good and sure as it is now.

I'm with you on the criteria you have for betting on either Mao or Yu-Na at the Olympics. It's just a feeling, but I think Mao is going to be more consistent with the hardest jumps from now on. She might even do two triple axels in a LP. I think the move from Rafael and last year's Worlds win has done much for her. She doesn't look so much like a scared rabbit in the many recent clips I've seen of her.

 

[bekalc]

Um, you think musical expression can be judged objectively? Wow, I'd love to hear your criteria for that one.

I know that Yu-Na has been doing her 3F-3T for as long as Mao has been doing her 3F-3L. What I meant was that Mao's 3F-3T isn't perfect probably because it's a new combo for her, and since she's an amazing jumper I wouldn't be surprised if she masters that combo perfectly with time. Same goes with the 2A-3T. Yu-Na's 3F-3T might not have been deemed underrotated the first season she tried it, but I doubt it was as good and sure as it is now.

I'm with you on the criteria you have for betting on either Mao or Yu-Na at the Olympics. It's just a feeling, but I think Mao is going to be more consistent with the hardest jumps from now on. She might even do two triple axels in a LP. I think the move from Rafael and last year's Worlds win has done much for her. She doesn't look so much like a scared rabbit in the many recent clips I've seen of her.

Actually Mao was doing triple flip/triple toes as a Junior. Although her technique on the triple toe IS much improved... We will see if she starts landing those combos/axel consistently... I'm not convinced that Mao's problems were mental (maybe in the short) but not with the long.

 

[Andalusia]

Actually Mao was doing triple flip/triple toes as a Junior. Although her technique on the triple toe IS much improved... We will see if she starts landing those combos/axel consistently... I'm not convinced that Mao's problems were mental (maybe in the short) but not with the long.

Yes, and I don't think she was ever too good with the toe and salchow.

I just saw that clip which featured Mao's improved lutz while working under Tarasova, and it looked clean and well-done to my untrained eyes. Boy, Yu-Na should be mightily worried if Mao has managed to fix her flutz.

 

[turtle]

Boy, Yu-Na should be mightily worried if Mao has managed to fix her flutz.

If someone is relying on his/her competitor's mistakes and flaws, it doesn't make the person a true competitor. I honestly don't think Mao's fixing her flutz worries Yuna, nor her announcement of including two triple axels this season. I bet, however, it seems to worry Yuna's crazy fans. Regardless, it is a treat for skating fans like myself to see improved programs and skills from top skaters every new season. Imagine how boring it would be otherwise; no anticipation, no excitement.

 

[Andalusia]

If someone is relying on his/her competitor's mistakes and flaws, it doesn't make the person a true competitor. I honestly don't think Mao's fixing her flutz worries Yuna, nor her announcement of including two triple axels this season. I bet, however, it seems to worry Yuna's crazy fans. Regardless, it is a treat for skating fans like myself to see improved programs and skills from top skaters every new season. Imagine how boring it would be otherwise; no anticipation, no excitement.

Yes, I should have worded it better. I was speaking figuratively.

I feel likewise.

Does Mao's lutz worry the Yu-Na ubers? Any moment I expect to see something like, YU-NY does NOT LIP. no LIP. mao sTiLL FLUTZ cuz SUSIE BUTTON Said so.

 

[fairly4]

Afer this competition,
Yu-na has the wow program,
Miki can be a wow but is lacking something.
Yukari program isn't working for me. It is a nice program
Mirai is lacking wow and maturity.
Rachels is better than I expected.
Kimmie is the same

 

[sillylionlove]

I tried to do multiple quotes...but apparently I am stupid today so....to everyone who replied to me about anyone beating YuNa.....thanks. For some reason I forgot about Mao!! Don't know how I did that? I guess the next Grand Prix's will tell the story.

 

[Mafke]

This is how urban legends begin. A dedicated band of lunatics has been screaming about Kim's supposed 'lip' trying to make it real.

It isn't.

At most, Kim sometimes might flap (my own term?) for a flip from the flat (like flatz for a lutz from the flat). But that's okay because unlike some jumps (edge jumps, lutz) the flip works better from a shallow edge.

She don't lip, no way, no how.

 

[Tinymavy15]

I thought the judging was pretty spot on for once.

Yu-Na- well we all knew she would win after the SP, but she delived a beautiful performance anyway. She looked beautiful and I think she really "got it." as to the charachter. I never saw anybody skate to sherezade that well. Beautiful program, but her spiral still bother me...i guess that is nitpicking though.

Yukuri- Charming program. I loved the chreo to death. She did not skate as well as I had seen her in the past, but got a good result. Very happy for her.

Miki- I liked Yukuri's Giselle much better. I think the program really looked like Morozov's others... she had pretty good jumps, but the mistake on the spiral really broke the program. Nice dress and makeup though.

Kimmie- I almost cried for her. I think the music was actually a pretty good choice, the dress was a pretty bad choice and she fewer chreogrpahic moves than ever before, but it was sad to see her fall like that on the lutz. She did a nice job of coming back, and it was so cute seeing Todd in the Kiss and Cry with her. I just don't see this being Kimmie's comback season like she wanted.

Racheal- Pretty good. Didn't wow me and she seemed to be holding back, but pretty nice. I like her use of the music. but please. stop with the blue.

Marai-I don't love the program, but i felt that she too was holding back. the fall on the footwork showed that me that she was rushing to keep up with the music, which will be a challange. Cute, but i was dissipointed that she didn't even try the 3/3 in either program. She must be kidding herself if she thinks she can make Worlds without one.

Susanna- Very classy, very pretty. I thourougly enjoyed her skating.

 

[enzet]

There's talk that Miki's fixed her lip to the point where it know looks like Yu-na's, I don't think she's getting hit either.

Is it just me who thinks that Miki's flip doesn't look anything like Yu-Na's?
After fixing her lip (which was much more obvious than Yu-Na's, no question about that) her inside edge now looks very clear to me even from a distance and without slow-motion. Kudos to her!

Why don't instead of people saying the judges are being soo unfair by not calling Yu-na on this, why don't people look and see if others (who have similar (and maybe slight lips/flutzs get called too). IF they don't then leave it the hell a lone, and stop talking about punishing Yu-na while ignoring people like Daisuke.

Mirai Nagasu is another one who has a slight flutz that rarely gets called. This rule is about hitting the OBVIOUS cases that can be seen in real time. It's not about going after people in slow motion.

I agree, that Yu-Na is definitely not the only one. Perhaps if the judges were using slow-motion the calls might get more consistent and the fans would be less upset because what is obvious to one is not necessarily obvious to the other. The same goes for underrotations or are they using slow-motion for these?
I think many skaters get mixed messaged about their jumps.
Of course, I don't think slow-motion would solve all controversies regarding this topic but it should certainly help a lot.