Are Evan and Johnny going in the wrong direction?

[decker]

I don't know if Singin' in the Rain is the best choice for him. It is a big change from the dark, dramatic programs Lori Nichol did for him, which were very effective. .

Ummmmm ... Singin' in the Rain was a fabulous choice for Evan. He used it in 2004. It's the last thing he did that I liked!

This year he's skating to Bolero and Rhapsody in Blue.

Susan

 

[Tinymavy15]

If they all skate well, johnny and evan will never beat the Disukie, Brian, Plushenko of Stephane (when he was skating). they most they can hope for is a medal. Both Johnny and Evan have world bronzes and Evan just missed a bronze at the olympics. They want to quad because when done well it can put you ahead of the pack. But most of the time it puts you way below the pack becasue the deductions are rampant if you cheat it, fall, double foot or otherwise mess up.

Neither Evan nor Johnny skated thier best at Skate America, but few people did. I am not really impressed with either one of thier programs, but I think Evan's have potential if he really performs them out like he did with Singing in the Rain and Carmen at the Olympics. Johnny's LP was not bad either, again, if he performed it from start to finish and does it with clean jumps.

 

[Brandi_DeLain]

Not even close. Hm....
http://hsuhs.gallery.ru/watch?ph=dzM-XBNt

You should never try to judge jump technique from screen caps. If you don't have any Johnny/Evan downloaded vids to play with (i.e. put into Windows Movie Maker and slow-mo the jumps) then at least refer to youtube vids instead of wonky still shots. I could take any decent jump and make it look wonky in a still shot depending on when I hit "pause" and "print screen".

 

[Tonichelle]

Ummmmm ... Singin' in the Rain was a fabulous choice for Evan. He used it in 2004. It's the last thing he did that I liked!
Susan

2005 Nationals was where I finally noticed Evan and i liked what I saw

I liked his Grease routine, but the judges and most skating fans didn't... I also love Carmen

Tosca was just a repeat of Carman... and Bolreo and Gershwin both seem overly messy, and I think that's more TT's fault that his.

 

[decker]

Tosca was just a repeat of Carman... and Bolreo and Gershwin both seem overly messy, and I think that's more TT's fault that his.

I was reeeeally disappointed in both of Evan's new programs. And that costume ... proof that TT loves Johnny best

Not sure about fault, though. The closing steps in the Gershwin in particular seemed like a retread of his usual (here lately) style. He may have doctored up what TT gave him.

And he'd need to shout across the room while ducking behind a chair, but he could've told TT he was not going to go out in public looking like a cross between Liberace and an Elvis impersonator.

Susan

 

[Hsuhs]

You should never try to judge jump technique from screen caps.

Never. I'll bear that in mind.

 

[dancingqueen]

If they all skate well, johnny and evan will never beat the Disukie, Brian, Plushenko of Stephane (when he was skating). they most they can hope for is a medal. Both Johnny and Evan have world bronzes and Evan just missed a bronze at the olympics.

Every season, things are changing including skaters body conditions, so we will never know what will happen , people usually judge based on the past results. Also we haven’t seen Daisuke, Brian, Plushenko competing with this brand new judging system this season yet, so we don’t know how their elements will be judged.
Stephane is not competing anymore, and we would never know how he would be judged with this new system.

Evan’s new FP reminds me of his FP at 2004 Nationals , he was wearing bright red blouse. Some of his movements even reminded me of that performance.

I prefer him with Zorro type of program. I only liked that one of his programs.

 

[ae9177]

While Evan was interviewed by CBC, he stated that he probably won't be doing the quad anymore.

Is that just for the GP season or it'll be his long term strategy? I have a hard time to believe it since he seems to be very determined to get it in both of his programs.

He didn't do too much training on the quad this off season due to his lingering shoulder and leg injuries; and his new focus to improve the artistry of his skating, which was a smart move. He also suffered some leg pains at Skate America, which may affect his jumps a bit.

So it's the right decision for him to get the injury cured first, while keep polishing his choreography during the GP season. He should do very well at SC if he doesn't do quad, since he has very solid and consistent triple jumps. :yes:

But in the long term, a quad is a 'must to have' if he wants to become a significant competitor at Vancouvor, same for Johnny.

I think both did a good job at SA, and neither reached their full potential yet. I don't like the fact that some people write them off the list so fast when it's still so early in the season.

 

[Brandi_DeLain]

Never. I'll bear that in mind.

Well, I'm sorry, but you really shouldn't judge jump technique from still shots.

For instance, the still shot you provided (presumably showing wonky toe axel technique on Johnny's SA quad) was freeze-framed well after he'd picked in and started rotation.

I made a still of the exact quad in the exact program (2008 SA LP). You can tell he's picking in here to start rotation, and yet his shoulders are still squared (meaning he's not pre-rotating). The still shot you posted was taken after he'd picked in and started rotation.

Here's my pic . . .

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v320/brandidelain/Weir-LP-SA.jpg

I suggest that people only judge jump technique from moving vids (preferably slo-mo) instead of still shots. I felt the need to post this still shot only to counter Hsuhs's obviously biased one.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I hope everyone realizes that I'm being sarcastic. You simply can't say skaters are washed up after one, early season outing. Especially when they skated as solidly as Johnny and Evan did at SA. No, they weren't perfect, but they don't train to be perfect in October.

I didn't read that anyone said they were washed up. Sarcastic? umm. I intimated that they reached their limit. They are both top 10 skaters and I do not foresee anyone taking them out of that. It is a gold medal that makes me skeptical. Of course, it's early in the season, so it's just an intimation that I have about improvements. They may podium if they get help. JMO

 

[Spun Silver]

I was reeeeally disappointed in both of Evan's new programs. And that costume ... proof that TT loves Johnny best

My thought exactly!

And he'd need to shout across the room while ducking behind a chair, but he could've told TT he was not going to go out in public looking like a cross between Liberace and an Elvis impersonator.

Yup, with the 'cross' on both sides just in case anyone didn't get it the first time.

 

[Spun Silver]

There is Bradley (a crowd pleaser) and Abbot (quad) and a much experience learned Rippon to deal with in Cleveland. Let's look for improvements in Jand E at the Nats - not necessarily, who is better.

Abbott has more of a quad than Evan? He falls all the time. (I like him a lot but the guy falls.)

 

[Hsuhs]

I felt the need to post this still shot only to counter Hsuhs's obviously biased one.

The stills I've posted - the one is of Johnny's and the other is Evan's quad- catch the moment both their feet finally leave the ice. A royal half-turn prerotation. And then they both underrotate. Why call these barely 3 full turns in the air, a quad? I agree with the SA tech.controller, we shoudn't.

I hope the technical controllers in the upcoming GP events will be just as objective as this one.

 

[Brandi_DeLain]

The stills I've posted - the one is of Johnny's and the other is Evan's quad- catch the moment both their feet finally leave the ice. A royal half-turn prerotation. And then they both underrotate. Why call these barely 3 full turns in the air, a quad? I agree with the SA tech.controller, we shoudn't.

I hope the technical controllers in the upcoming GP events will be just as objective as this one.

I guess I missed where you posted about Evan's funky quad technique. :frown2: And BTW - Evan underrotated his quad WAY worse than Johnny at SA and didn't even come close to landing it.

It seems to me you've been pretty harsh on Johnny's technique but haven't said much about Evan's. Like I said before, I don't think either one of them toe axel the quad. And I believe that any (unbiased) person who views their quad attempts on video would agree with that.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I didn't read that anyone said they were washed up. Sarcastic? umm. I intimated that they reached their limit. They are both top 10 skaters and I do not foresee anyone taking them out of that. It is a gold medal that makes me skeptical. Of course, it's early in the season, so it's just an intimation that I have about improvements. They was podium if they get help. JMO

 

[psycho]

My advice would be to scrap this program and start over. As someone else here said, Johnny is at the point in his career where every choice and decision really matters. In the pre-Olympic year, he really can't afford to have a mediocre long program (especially since he is a skater who relies more on the PCS than the TES score).

Holy crap, are you kidding! The absolute last thing anyone should be doing right now is scrapping their programs, especially since, as you say, every decision really matters!!!

And this applies to Johnny especially. He needs to build confidence and become comfortable with his program, not make a new one! Even if you don't like it, his program is not any worse in terms on choreography than any of the top men (we haven't seen Daisuke yet, but unless he has a masterpiece...and he never had a masterpiece in FS before, so why start now?). It will do.

Scrapping programs that he worked on all summer will turn his world upside down, and he'll start doubting himself even more than he usually does! Past experience has shown this.

The only thing some of the main guys should be scrapping are their costumes (I'm looking at you, Brian and Evan). Other than that they should maybe add transitions, up the levels, but good lord, not scrap their programs in some crazed panic?!

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Abbott has more of a quad than Evan? He falls all the time. (I like him a lot but the guy falls.)

I'm thinking this Nats, he wont fall.

 

[Medusa]

I suggest that people only judge jump technique from moving vids (preferably slo-mo) instead of still shots. I felt the need to post this still shot only to counter Hsuhs's obviously biased one.

Well, I don't think that Hsuhs is biased. I also don't remember her/him being in any way anti-Johnny or anti-Evan ever. I think she is just an attentive fan of figure skating with an interest in the technical aspects and a sense for fairness.

The stills I've posted - the one is of Johnny's and the other is Evan's quad- catch the moment both their feet finally leave the ice. A royal half-turn prerotation. And then they both underrotate. Why call these barely 3 full turns in the air, a quad? I agree with the SA tech.controller, we shoudn't.

I hope the technical controllers in the upcoming GP events will be just as objective as this one.

I did play-by-play in the Angels chat during the LP and the moment Johnny landed the Quad I wrote "possibly underrotated" - and after I saw it in slow-motion I said immediately "duh, so underrotated".

And here comes my theory. The problem with the Quad at SA (and for that matter with the Quad at Worlds) is that his body seems to make most of the rotation, and his landing foot doesn't seem to cheat a lot of rotation. The problem is in my opinion that his free leg crashes down half a rotation too early. And that's not only double-footing but also underrotation. I tried to make stills, but it is so hard to see, also because of the black trousers and the black skates. Look here at 6:40 - 6:41. The reason is probably that he doesn't get enough height and just doesn't have the time to finish the rotation.

About the prerotation - it is an impressive amount of prerotation for both Lysacek and Weir. I looked at other skaters and Lambiel, especially later in his career, also had a lot of prerotation. Joubert seems to be pretty good though, he cheats perhaps 1/4 of a turn. Yagudin and Plushenko had really amazing Quads.

I'm thinking this Nats, he wont fall.

At the beginning of last season and during Nationals Abbott really fell or had a very messy landing on every Quad toe - but at 4CC and at Worlds he landed 3 out of 4 Quads with 0 or positive GOE. The Triple Axel seemed to desert him more often than the Quad.

 

[Brandi_DeLain]

Well, thanks for setting me straight, Medusa.

I've posted my last comment on this board. I really don't enjoy arguing just for the sake of it. Cheers!

 

[Hsuhs]

The problem is in my opinion that his free leg crashes down half a rotation too early. And that's not only double-footing but also underrotation.

I believe this is exactly the reason why Johnny's quad in last Worlds got a <. Yet, I read on other boards how frustrated fans don't get it. They play it back and see the landing foot within the 1/4 turn underrotation limit, while not paying attention to the position of his free leg.