Is the interaction between competitive skating and show skating still mutually beneficial?

[Anna K.]

I'm afraid you mixed up Nathan Chen and Patrick Chan

No, I don't. Patrick Chan never did more than 2 quads per program. Nathan Chen was the first one to do 6 quads per program. You might not feel the difference but I'm afraid that Nathan did.

I also think Boyang was the first major multi-quad skater...

What does his current body state say about it?

he wants to be a doctor. What's wrong with that?

A doctor who loves skating can keep skating while being a doctor. Ask Valter Virtanen.

And, by the way, did you two chime in just to make side notes in hope to derail this topic? Or, do either of you have something to say regarding the question because of which I actually mentioned Nathan Chen?

Is this the current cost of major medals? Do skaters need to choose what they want: a top notch medal or a post competitive career in show skating?
What can be the interaction between show skating and competitive skating then?

 

[Magill]

No, I don't. Patrick Chan never did more than 2 quads per program. Nathan Chen was the first one to do 6 quads per program. You might not feel the difference but I'm afraid that Nathan did.

Nathan never was involved in real estate. Patrick was but after he turned 30, not at 26. These are two different guys and two different life stories completely mixed up
I did not comment on the number of quads any of them did, just on their alleged involvement with real estate at the age of 26.
As the thesis an OGM got involved in real estate at 26 instead of doing shows is not true for either of them, I am not sure what question this example should serve to answer...?

 

[Anna K.]

Nathan never was in real estate. Patrick was. These are two different guys and two different life stories completely mixed up

All right, I checked. The real estate agent Nathan Chen and figure skater Nathan Chen apparently are two different persons (and I am not the only one in this forum who got confused by that). Took it out of the original post since it changes nothing. So, shall we talk about the topic now?

 

[TallyT]

What does his current body state say about it?

He was apparently in an accident in 2017 which complicates the issue. To be honest, I have absolutely no problem with the proposal that doing multiple quads leads to injuries and health problems, I very much lean that way myself and I think the current model of elite skating may prove unsustainable in the long run, but I was reacting to the Boyang erasure which (quite unthinkingly, I imagine in most cases) happens way too often.

And, by the way, did you two chime in just to make side notes in hope to derail this topic?

People are allowed to query what they think is incorrect information in any thread (and if I am wrong, someone can correct me) even when they agree with the argument. How is that derailing?

 

[Magill]

All right, I checked. The real estate agent Nathan Chen and figure skater Nathan Chen apparently are two different persons (and I am not the only one in this forum who got confused by that). Took it out of the original post since it changes nothing. So, shall we talk about the topic now?

But what topic this example should serve?
AFAIK - and I am sure there are plenty of Nathan fans here who can answer to this better than me - Nathan wanted to become a doctor for ages and this had nothing to do with his injuries. I recall him stating in some early interview that even if he did not win big medals, he could still use his skating achievements to get into a good college as he did not come from very affluent background. In other words, I guess at some point he felt he might need fin aid to get into a med school which is expensive and requires many years of studies as in US you need to graduate from an undergrad course first - and then a sport scholarship could come in handy. He was absolutely open about it so I don't feel I am invading his privacy by mentioning that. In the end of the day, his financial situation obviously changed but his plans apparently did not.
The US university system is very different from European ones and actually quite a few athletes use their sport career to secure a place in a college they could not afford otherwise and study smth completely different, not related to sports at all. So what? I think it is great that they are offered this kind of opportunities and can actually choose a different profession if they wish, and secure for themselves a career path and a source of income for the time where age / injuries / a change in interest takes them out of the sport.
As for Nathan, I really think it is not because of injuries but a change in life style and interest that he's not seen much around the rinks.
Which is completely alright for me BTW. After years and years of restrictions and ultra disciplined training you might want out. Just as equally legitimate choice as Yuzuru's stunning and stellar pro career. Different strokes for different folks. I also think that a show career is currently way less attractive in US than in Japan, both money, opportunities and audience wise. And Nathan never was a show magnet the way Yuzu has always been. Which might be just another factor affecting their choices....

As for multi-quadsters and shows in a more general perspective, I think it is not necessarily injuries, but rather their focus on jumps vs performance skills which is keeping them from thriving in shows and playing a crowd magnet role there . It is just a different set of skills for drawing crowds to shows and for winning comps atm. It is interesting. But it was already discussed earlier in this thread.

 

[TallyT]

Okay, let's take the actual question out of the disputed details and look at it...

Is this the current cost of major medals? Do skaters need to choose what they want: a top notch medal or a post competitive career in show skating?

Not for the 2014-18 generation, I think. Lessee, leaving out Nathan (as his story is above) and Yuzuru where it's been discussed...

Boyang is still in competition. Patrick (who was not a major multiquad skater but did have them) went as stated into real estate, show skating in North America being limited may have had more of an effect than injuries. Javier actually started a successful run of shows in Spain, my impression his plans got derailed by covid restrictions and as yet hasn't regained momentum; he still appears in shows, especially in Japan. Shoma does lots of shows and is about to headline his own tour. Mikhail Kolyada appears in shows in Russia.

And then there's the 2018-2022 Tutberidze girls, all have injuries that will linger on and on, but most are still (at least at the minute) headlining shows.

Who've I missed?

 

[rabidline]

When I thought about starting this topic, I actually wanted to start it with an example.
That example is Nathan Chen. When we saw him as a 10 y.o. child skating to Peter And The Wolf, we saw a child who absolutely enjoyed performing. Today, he's 26, he is an Olympic champion, and he is in pursue of a career non-related to skating. Why?

There is another thread about the popularity of skating and post-competitive options in the U.S.; but I don't think that these issues are related. I rather believe that Nathan's post-competitive career choice was related to the fact that Nathan Chen was the first multi-quadster and his health had to deal with the respective loads.

So, I have a question:
Is this the current cost of major medals? Do skaters need to choose what they want: a top notch medal or a post competitive career in show skating?
What can be the interaction between show skating and competitive skating then?

In my opinion, Nathan comes from a big family and has older siblings who excel in multiple fields, some of them are pretty succesful in academia. So it can also be that he looks up to them and that he already has personal networks and connections as well as more practical knowledge about what it takes than other top skaters to really commit to a non-skating career.

The 2022-2024 period where he was still involved in shows, I thought Nathan looked like he still really enjoys skating and performing, if not more free to explore his range and choreography than when he was still competing. I do agree that he's not pushing himself physically to retain his quads, but as you inquire about his enjoyment of performing, he seems perfectly fine if not happier after the Olympics. He still skates on his personal time (and also for workshops with JLB!) so I can see him back on shows after he finished his studies.

 

[rabidline]

So, I have a question:
Is this the current cost of major medals? Do skaters need to choose what they want: a top notch medal or a post competitive career in show skating?
What can be the interaction between show skating and competitive skating then?

You also got me thinking about the cost of major medals for other skaters. The gold medalists of Beijing 2022 isn't just Nathan, we have Gabriella Papadakis and Guillaume Cizeron, also Sui Wenjing and Cong Han. Of course Anna S. too but it's these two teams that got me thinking.

Out of the 4 people, Cizeron and Wenjing are plotting a comeback- with different partners. Cong are too injured to come back and is now a coach and IIRC is also involved as a technical panel (?) or referee (?) side of the competition. Papadakis is the most interesting case- show skating is literally giving her a platform and outlet to process the thoughts and emotions she has both about her past and present, and perform them to an audience, and it still means a lot to her. When you think about where her current tour is performing, away from the glitz and glamour of European concerts/ ice shows, it seems to be an unlikely place for an OGM and 5 time World Champion. But she seems to be the most free and happiest she's ever been, and she wouldn't have that space if the folks of Ice Dance International don't have their tour.

 

[NanaPat]

I think there have always been some skaters who continue in skating (shows or coaching or choreography) as a lifetime pursuit and some who do something completely different with their lives.

Some non-recent examples: Joannie Rochette (2006, 2010 Olympics) is a doctor, while Elvis Stojko (1994, 1998, 2002 Olympics) is still skating in shows at age 53! To be fair, Elvis took many years away from skating or he may not have lasted this long.

 

[Diana Delafield]

I think there have always been some skaters who continue in skating (shows or coaching or choreography) as a lifetime pursuit and some who do something completely different with their lives.

Some non-recent examples: Joannie Rochette (2006, 2010 Olympics) is a doctor, while Elvis Stojko (1994, 1998, 2002 Olympics) is still skating in shows at age 53! To be fair, Elvis took many years away from skating or he may not have lasted this long.

Plus Elvis was always a multi-sport athlete, and has thus kept in top shape without pounding away at the same muscles and joints as he would if he spent all his time just skating.

 

[Mathman]

No, I don't. Patrick Chan never did more than 2 quads per program. Nathan Chen was the first one to do 6 quads per program. You might not feel the difference but I'm afraid that Nathan did.

Tim Goebel did three in 2002. As far as I know he is now still working for Google in data analysis/statisticsmarketing.

(Sorry if that's off topic here. )

 

[Wynter]

When I thought about starting this topic, I actually wanted to start it with an example.
That example is Nathan Chen. When we saw him as a 10 y.o. child skating to Peter And The Wolf, we saw a child who absolutely enjoyed performing. Today, he's 26, he is an Olympic champion, and he is in pursue of a career non-related to skating. Why?

There is another thread about the popularity of skating and post-competitive options in the U.S.; but I don't think that these issues are related. I rather believe that Nathan's post-competitive career choice was related to the fact that Nathan Chen was the first multi-quadster and his health had to deal with the respective loads.

So, I have a question:
Is this the current cost of major medals? Do skaters need to choose what they want: a top notch medal or a post competitive career in show skating?
What can be the interaction between show skating and competitive skating then?

Should a 10-year-old who enjoys performing on ice consider a career in performing as an adult? Not necessarily. There's no way we'll know the exact reason because we're not Nathan, but I believe there are lots of things to be consider if he wants to be a full-time show skater. Health may be one of the factors, but there are other considerations e.g., show availability and demands for show skating in the US. IMHO, Nathan made a wise choice to focus on a career non-related to skating. Not necessarily because of his health, but because the non-skating career have better opportunity.

Now, should a competitive skater think that they'll have to choose between excelling in competitive skating or show skating? The way I see it, a competitive skater should strive to excel at both. Even if they don't plan to go to show skating at the second stage of their career, shouldn't they do it to improve their PCS score during their competitive career?

 

[Anna K.]

Nathan made a wise choice to focus on a career non-related to skating. Not necessarily because of his health, but because the non-skating career have better opportunity.

He did indeed. The point is: what are the factors that made his choice wise? And what do these factors say about the current state of figure skating and show skating?
Law and medicine are prestigious (and expensive) fields of studies that are supposed to guarantee well-being for the rest of the life. However, he will start his career from zero. It will take some time before he will actually start working as a doctor, not mention making money. He is not a famous doctor. He is a famous figure skater.

If this is the best way how the figure skating fame can be materialized, it makes me pensive, Figure skating is an Olympic sport. When medals are up once in four year, this event is supposed to make certain resonance that promotes the sport. It would be logical to expect the reigning champion to engage in sports-related activism one way or another. Otherwise there is no return and no input in the future of the sport.
The media coverage and the public resonance is different depending on the country (there is another thread about the figure skating popularity in the U.S.), but it says something about the international stage, too.
And it indeed says something about show skating, since sold-out shows featuring Olympic champions have always been a sign that said promotion has worked well.

 

[Anna K.]

Should a 10-year-old who enjoys performing on ice consider a career in performing as an adult? Not necessarily.

Indeed.
But should a 10y.o. who enjoys performing have a competitive career with performance part reduced to minimum to find place for quads, quads, and more quads so that by the end of his competitive career he has neither the reputation nor the relations necessary to go show skating in Europe or Japan (if we assume that the U.S. public is not interested in figure skating) or attracting fans via internet? Young Nathan was probably told that the Olympic medal will outweigh it all. I hope Nathan believes it did.

When Nathan competed, many complained that his programs were empty. Today, we have empty programs with minimized choreography all over the Men's field because that's just how human body works. There is only that much energy in this body. Theoretic striving to succeed in both performance and tech can't change that.
What does it mean for the future of show skating? We'll see. But to me the future looks different, a different type of interaction between show skating and competitive skating if any, than it used to be in the past.

Tim Goebel did three in 2002. As far as I know he is now still working for Google in data analysis/statisticsmarketing.

(Sorry if that's off topic here. )

It doesn't look off-topic to me, rather illustrative in a way.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

What's wrong with exploring other interests as life goes on? If they like skating when younger it doesn't mean they're stuck with it forever. They don't owe it to you to keep skating.

 

[Anna K.]

What's wrong with exploring other interests as life goes on? If they like skating when younger it doesn't mean they're stuck with it forever. They don't owe it to you to keep skating.

HOLY GOD. Did I say that exploring other interests is wrong? Or, maybe, I posted a demand for somebody to skate for me? What do you think this topic is about?

Oh, forget about it. Why should your answer be relevant to what I say anyway? It's a free world. Anyone is free to see what they want to see and talk what they want to talk. Good luck with that.

 

[Mathman]

I think the problem is that all sports are basically recreational activities for children. Some exceptionally gifted athletes are presented with the opportunity to extend their adolescence into their twenties and maybe beyond, even making a lot of money for doing so.

All good things come to an end and the one-time athlete has another half century of life to fill. A super-star does face the challenge, as Anna K notes above with regard to Nathan Chen, that if you are a world champion at your sport it might be something of a let-down to realize that you are not going to be a world champion doctor, or a world champion architect or plumber.

As to the original question of the thread, I do think that the traditional chain of promising youngster -> champion amateur -> professional entertainer has long since been eroded, due primarily to the lack of professional show opportunities compared to the past.

 

[Wynter]

He did indeed. The point is: what are the factors that made his choice wise? And what do these factors say about the current state of figure skating and show skating?
Law and medicine are prestigious (and expensive) fields of studies that are supposed to guarantee well-being for the rest of the life. However, he will start his career from zero. It will take some time before he will actually start working as a doctor, not mention making money. He is not a famous doctor. He is a famous figure skater.

If this is the best way how the figure skating fame can be materialized, it makes me pensive, Figure skating is an Olympic sport. When medals are up once in four year, this event is supposed to make certain resonance that promotes the sport. It would be logical to expect the reigning champion to engage in sports-related activism one way or another. Otherwise there is no return and no input in the future of the sport.
The media coverage and the public resonance is different depending on the country (there is another thread about the figure skating popularity in the U.S.), but it says something about the international stage, too.
And it indeed says something about show skating, since sold-out shows featuring Olympic champions have always been a sign that said promotion has worked well.

He’s badly injured on the last year of his competitive career, coming from a country that didn’t care much about figure skating, and where show skating are no longer popular. Are those factors not enough?

Now, for current state of figure skating and show skating.

Some shows in Russia are successful. Nathan cannot perform there.
Art on Ice should be quite successful. Nathan cannot perform there.
Yuzu’s ice stories are very successful. Nathan cannot perform there.

OTOH, Stars on Ice (AFAIK) is not that successful. There are lesser stops each year. If Nathan to join SOI, he’ll start that show career from zero. If he decided to make his own show, he’ll also start it from zero. In the low-demand market. It is a very high risk.

 

[Wynter]

As to the original question of the thread, I do think that the traditional chain of promising youngster -> champion amateur -> professional entertainer has long since been eroded, due primarily to the lack of professional show opportunities compared to the past.

Yuzu’s the last skater who can do this traditional chain, but he has enough support and connection to create his own professional show opportunities.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

HOLY GOD. Did I say that exploring other interests is wrong? Or, maybe, I posted a demand for somebody to skate for me? What do you think this topic is about?

Oh, forget about it. Why should your answer be relevant to what I say anyway? It's a free world. Anyone is free to see what they want to see and talk what they want to talk. Good luck with that.

I didn't mean 'you' as in you personally, sorry that it caused offence!

To phrase it more carefully, competitive skaters may want to pursue career avenues other than show skating after retirement for a large variety of reasons other than the theory that their show careers are limited by factors arising from their competitive phase.

I think it is a bit of a stretch to portray Nathan Chen as someone who was forced out of a dream of professional skating into a second-rate career choice in medicine to pay the bills. It's quite plausible that he aspired to be a doctor all along (his parents are in medically related fields and his sister worked in a Nobel prize winner's lab). He is following the usual timeline for medicine in North America, since they have postgraduate entry by default, so it would not be accurate to describe him and everyone else who goes to university at the usual time as starting from zero. For Patrick Chan and many retired skaters and ballet dancers that I know, real estate is a common career choice because it's easy to transition into if you've spent your earlier years focused on something else, and it's flexible enough to combine with part-time coaching if they still want to stay involved with their previous career stages.

I just wanted to highlight that these people have more agency in their career choices than some might realise. It helps that I know enough people from similar performing arts/sports background that I'm not just projecting motivations onto them. I like to be brief so as not to get dragged into thread drama, but but sometimes it backfires, so I hope I've spent enough time on this post to make amends for my choice of words earlier. You're entitled to your own theory, of course.