Is it OK that PCSs tend to track TES?

[Tutto]

I mean, the guys with a big jump in them, but no SS don't get high PCSs. For example, Fedir Kulish of Latvia landed big jumps, got low PCSs scores. When people want low PCSs for so-called low PCSs skaters, they drop to the PCSs values that are way too low (I've seen people saying that Malinin 'should' get 2's). On the top 12 level, the PCSs imo appropriately start in the 6's and 7's. I don' mind people disagreeing about PCSs, but going too far is going too far. I had seen Memola live. He is slower, but impressive, and certainly not on the 4 level of SS, because if he gets 4, what do you even give the skaters who are not in the leet tier of international competitions, who compete nationally, regionally, on a city level, etc. Negative values?

Also, GoE. So, watching both WTT and WC, I am feeling that Kagiyama's edges on jumps are actually too much because his propensity to exaggerate the edges make the landings look loop-sided and unstable even if he stays on his feet. Malinin's jumps (despite straighter knees and lesser edge) are way higher, effortless, sure and, therefore, more impressive. So, is it actually a perfect technique if it brings the jump this close to a failure to land to show more edge? Too much of a good thing...

Nikolaj has that effect, yes.
I did not think my comment would be taken so literally, I'll give him 6, ok! But his lack of speed should be penalised precisely because he is an elite skater. And there are tons of juniors faster than him.
Fedir Kulish would not get high PCS no matter what because he is skating for a small country. Please refer to Mikhail Shaidorov, who, by the way, in my opinion, does not deserve high PCS for several reasons and one of them -his LP being a crime against humanity and specifically an insult to poor Beethoven! But nevertheless he had his PCS slowly but surely rising all the season as he was putting out one good skate after another. Consistency is everything. Pro Consistency Score that what PCS is.

 

[Arigato]

(I've seen people saying that Malinin 'should' get 2's).

Well, if the shoe fits . . . okay, maybe not that low.

 

[gmyers]

Skaters on the junior Grand Prix who do not train on ice tend to get 1 or 2 so if you can generate speed and flow that’s at least 5 or 6 if people who don’t train on ice get 1

 

[Mathman]

Judges should be able to say what "good presentation" is. That's what the written guidelines are for.

Well... the guidelines say (2023, maybe they have been updated) things like

"Presentation. 1.Expressiveness and Projection: Through comp;ete pesonal involvement in the program the skater expresses and projects a mood, feeling, image, rhythm or style inspired by the musical; selection and by the idea of the composition… Confident presentation of one’s body and energy to communicate a feeling. Ability to captre the viewer, to arouse emotions., etc."

To tell the truth, I have no objection at all to such language and in fact, I think that the ISU has done well overall in casting somewhat gauzy concepts of this sort into words. Presumably the judges themselves are given more to go on, plus examples conversations and seminars, etc.

Still, it is a tricky business to decide who gets the gold medal on the opinion that that one skater gave a more confident presentation of her body than another, or demonstrated more complete personal involvement in a mood or feeling.

On the other hand, this is figure skating, not the hundred meter dash.

To me, the bottom line is that I really do not see any alternative to the current deal. The big techies hve a head start, and then among them one surjes ahead of another by capturing the viewer, arousing emot.

 

[gkelly]

Skaters on the junior Grand Prix who do not train on ice tend to get 1 or 2 so if you can generate speed and flow that’s at least 5 or 6 if people who don’t train on ice get 1

That is true.

But there are only a handful of skaters in the world who 1) don't train on ice and 2) enter international competitions (JGPs) and therefore deserve those scores in international events that you can watch on youtube.

There are hundreds of thousands of skaters around the world who do train on ice but don't deserve scores higher than 1s or 2s or 3s, either because
*They haven't been skating very long (maybe a year or a couple of years)
*They don't train very often, on ice or otherwise, for various reasons (availability of the ice, finances, distance, busy with other activities)
*They don't get much coaching, or they don't get good coaching
*They're just not that talented
*They don't work hard when they do get opportunities to skate
*They started skating at an older age
*They have physical limitations/disabilities
And any combination of the above.

In the whole world of figure skating, there are a lot more skaters who deserve 1s and 2s (raises hand!) than who deserve 6s and 7s.

We just don't get to see them when watching the elite events, where the 6s and 7s go to the average and below average skaters in the elite field. But compared to the lower-ranked seniors in their own home countries, and compared to skaters at levels below junior and senior, those 6 and 7 skaters are pretty darn impressive.

Still, it is a tricky business to decide who gets the gold medal on the opinion that that one skater gave a more confident presentation of her body than another, or demonstrated more complete personal involvement in a mood or feeling.

This isn't ordinal judging, so judges don't get to decide who to give the gold medal to based on who they think gave a more confident presentation.

They will likely give a higher Presentation component score to the skater they thought gave a more confident presentation, unless other aspects of that component outweighed or balanced out that particular criterion.

But that decision on its own won't make the difference between gold and silver.
Base value will play a big part, including the effect of <, <<, and e calls on jumps, and including levels called by the tech panel, which judges don't get to see.
GOE across all elements will play a big part.
Skating Skills and also Composition components will also play a part.


If a judge thinks the skaters are pretty close overall in anything else, they could consciously choose to bump up the PR component of the skater they thought was stronger on that particular criterion.

But the judges don't have access to all the information nor the time or likely the math skills to parse out whether two skaters are so close in everything else that 0.25 or even 2.5 difference in the PR component will change their personal rankings. They're no longer in the business of ranking skaters.

They could think "I can hardly decide between Skater A and Skater B. Skater A performed better so I'll give her an extra point in Presentation to give her the win." But it's just as likely as not that A was already several points ahead of B on everything else and would have won, and won on that judge's column, even without the extra PR point. Or that B was so far ahead of A on everything else that an extra 1.0 in one component will do little to close the gap.

It's not like when there were only two scores and each judge had to use the two marks to show which skater they wanted to give their first-place ordinal to. It doesn't work like that any more.

 

[lariko]

Nikolaj has that effect, yes.
I did not think my comment would be taken so literally, I'll give him 6, ok! But his lack of speed should be penalised precisely because he is an elite skater. And there are tons of juniors faster than him.
Fedir Kulish would not get high PCS no matter what because he is skating for a small country. Please refer to Mikhail Shaidorov, who, by the way, in my opinion, does not deserve high PCS for several reasons and one of them -his LP being a crime against humanity and specifically an insult to poor Beethoven! But nevertheless he had his PCS slowly but surely rising all the season as he was putting out one good skate after another. Consistency is everything. Pro Consistency Score that what PCS is.

You are mixing so many things into one bowl.

A. Kulish is from the same country as Vassiljevs, who gets high PCSs, and is, in fact, one of the highest PCSs skaters in the world. Other small country skaters received and continue to receive high PCSs. The above-mentioned Shaidorov doesn't exactly represent Japan. Hagara gets high PCSs skating for Slovakia. On the other hand, Chinese skaters rarely get high PCSs.

B. The skating world is so limited, that it takes very few leet skaters for the nation to go from small to big. Estonia. Kazakstan. Switzerland. Beats me if China is a big or small skating nation.

C. I believe that Shaidorov's free skate is a fun play on 'epic' idea. Whether or not, Shaidorov 'earned' his PCSs climb this specific season, I will not take upon myself to judge because I did not see Shaidorov live this season. As of last World Championship, he was entry level to leet, at about 6.5-7.

which brings me to the next point, which I am very passionate about:

D. NEVER judge speed and impact of the program based on recording/TV. I attend a couple of leet competitions as a fan twice a year, and I had seen how the TV changes the feel of the skater's speed. Sometimes, the camera helps them, making them look smoother and faster (Luca Brossard, Mikhail Shaidorov, Browns in dance, and Isabeau Levito, for example). Other times, the camera makes them a disservice (Bradie Tennell, Ilia Malinin, Kao Miura, Mrazkovs in dance, and Nikolai Memola, for example). Judges watch them live. The difference can be really, really stark. For example, I am not to judge Alysa Lui until I see her live, since I wonder if she is like Tennell, has far more command of ice than TV shows.

I have some thoughts on the explosive popularity of Shaidorov this season—and good for him; the guy worked hard for it—and imo it has more to do with the knee jerk reaction a certain group of fans continues to exhibit to everything Malinin does, than with skating. First, they attached to Fa, now they attached to Shaidorov.

I had seen almost every junior and senior skater who got into Junior worlds and senior worlds since 2019, and live, and Malinin produces electrifying energy when he puts together these jumps—they are noticeably giant compared to other skaters—and the force of his personality into his performance. That is a real effing thing. Malinin performs, he is charismatic, and he projects far (vs Kagiyama who doesn't project much). To a lesser degree, it is true for Memola as well (he projects). They both draw eye.

And yes, I understand that Memola's height and insanely good looks help that, but we simply do not have a benchmark since other men of his height don't skate singles. All skaters on the leet level use their unique biomechanical parameters to go from top 24 to top 10, and then top 5. Uno had joint mobility, Kagiyama has knees, Malinin has explosive power, and Memola has height that he can leverage. Again, the other men close to his height don't do it, and when a tall guy skates on this level, it's visually more interesting than a smaller stature person (unless their name is Shoma Uno).

I think these things are reflected appropriately by the second mark (or parts of it). Again, considering that from the start, the PCSs marks on the leet level are not 0 to 10, but more like 6 to 10, because they are already the upper tier.

 

[Mathman]

It's not like when there were only two scores and each judge had to use the two marks to show which skater they wanted to give their first-place ordinal to. It doesn't work like that any more.

I think I didn't explain the point that I was trying to make very well. IJS does not compare one skater to another like ordinal judging did. Got it.

What I meant was, let's just look at how the numbers work out in reality. leaving out of account what might be going through the judges' minds. At Worlds LP in men's the top six in TES, from whom the (segment) podium is likely to be chosen, were, in order, Mailnin, Shaidorov, Siao Him Fa, Sato, Egadze and Cha.

So who gets the (small) medals? We turn to the PCS. Shaidorov did not help himself (8th in PCS), but the hit wasn't enough to deny him second place. Sato and Egadze lost a couple of places, Adam and Junhwan held their own. {Cha was 6th in TES and 6th in PCS but moved up a notch anyway as others jockeyed around him.)

Jason did his outlier thing and jumped up the ladder into the big time. Aymos made a move but only to 7th overall from 8th in TES. The final "segment podium" ended as it began, Malinin, Shaidorov, Siao Him Fa. (Overall, of course, Kagiyama crashed the party by tossing his treasure laid up in the SP onto the scales.)

 

[4everchan]

Well...I have seen memola shaidorov and malinin live... And they look better on screen IMHO.. so I would have to disagree here... Memola's blades are so loud and scratchy it is something else....

 

[Karoltyna]

I have some thoughts on the explosive popularity of Shaidorov this season—and good for him; the guy worked hard for it—and imo it has more to do with the knee jerk reaction a certain group of fans continues to exhibit to everything Malinin does, than with skating. First, they attached to Fa, now they attached to Shaidorov.

If you mean to use "Fa" as abbreviation for Siao Him Fa, you should use "Siao" instead. He is of chinese descent and Siao Him Fa was his grandfather's or greatgrandfather's full name (in Chinese surname goes first, Him Fa is a name like Mary Jane or Jean Jaques), that was adopted as family surname after they moved to France. The actual surname is "Siao" and Adam himself uses it as abbreviation.
I don't think fans who like Adam will move to Mikhail until he does a signifcant progress in anything else than jumps, for now it's hard to compare these skaters and it has nothing to do with Ilia. Moreover, I think it's more plausible that Ilia's fans move to Mikhail as they both show similar qualities and vibe on ice.

 

[Mathman]

If you mean to use "Fa" as abbreviation for Siao Him Fa, you should use "Siao" instead. He is of chinese descent and Siao Him Fa was his grandfather's or greatgrandfather's full name...

This is actually quite fascinating. As I understand it, the use of the full name of the ancestor as the official family name is a tradition specifically among the Chinese population of Mauritius. When the island was colonized by France it was essentially uninhabited, and they brought in workers/slaves from all over South and East Asia, as well as Africa, to work in the sugar plantations. At that time it was forbidden for Chinese immigrants to own land, but once a Chinese man was able to achieve a certain amount of prosperity he could get around this restriction by marrying an Indian woman and buying land in his wife's name.

 

[4everchan]

I think I didn't explain the point that I was trying to make very well. IJS does not compare one skater to another like ordinal judging did. Got it.

What I meant was, let's just look at how the numbers work out in reality. leaving out of account what might be going through the judges' minds. At Worlds LP in men's the top six in TES, from whom the (segment) podium is likely to be chosen, were, in order, Mailnin, Shaidorov, Siao Him Fa, Sato, Egadze and Cha.

So who gets the (small) medals? We turn to the PCS. Shaidorov did not help himself (8th in PCS), but the hit wasn't enough to deny him second place. Sato and Egadze lost a couple of places, Adam and Junhwan held their own. {Cha was 6th in TES and 6th in PCS but moved up a notch anyway as others jockeyed around him.)

Jason did his outlier thing and jumped up the ladder into the big time. Aymos made a move but only to 7th overall from 8th in TES. The final "segment podium" ended as it began, Malinin, Shaidorov, Siao Him Fa. (Overall, of course, Kagiyama crashed the party by tossing his treasure laid up in the SP onto the scales.)

the problem is that the TES difference can be huge even among the top contenders... while the PCS difference will barely vary among the top ten... I don't think we should have 30-40 points difference in PCS in the top ten at worlds... that's not what I am saying... but skaters with weaker blade mastery like Shaidorov, Memola, Malinin, Egadze, should not score in the same 3-5 point range as Brown, Cha, Kagiyama etc. Sometimes, we even see one of the weaker skater outscore a skating skill master because they nailed their TES and the latter didn't.

So sure, allow the TES score, due to large variation in Base value be 30 points higher for those who can nail these big tricks but do not tell me that a very skilled skater should only score 3 points higher than a weaker jumping dude.

OR what about : if PCS are not that important... why bother ? Let's just nix the PCS scores altogether... Only have judges mark on GOE. Raise base value and bullet levels for spins (skaters able to reach level 5-6 or more perhaps) and same for step sequences. Make the non-jump elements an important part of TES so at least, we can associate skating skills with step sequences and spins. We can also associate these with composition... Presentation takes care of itself.. you fall.. you lose points...

Of course, another of yours truly controversial ideas... but I'd be curious if there were a shift in that sense, to see if fans get it more... and if it is easier to understand for fans, what happens from a judging perspective. All many of us want is not to rerank the skater but simply reward the skaters truly for what they do best.

I think the base value for a step sequence level 1 should be 2 points, 4 for a level 2, 7 for a level 3 and 10 for a level 4, with proportionnal GOE.
Then we would see wonderful skating skills

 

[el henry]

If you mean to use "Fa" as abbreviation for Siao Him Fa, you should use "Siao" instead. He is of chinese descent and Siao Him Fa was his grandfather's or greatgrandfather's full name (in Chinese surname goes first, Him Fa is a name like Mary Jane or Jean Jaques), that was adopted as family surname after they moved to France. The actual surname is "Siao" and Adam himself uses it as abbreviation.
I don't think fans who like Adam will move to Mikhail until he does a signifcant progress in anything else than jumps, for now it's hard to compare these skaters and it has nothing to do with Ilia. Moreover, I think it's more plausible that Ilia's fans move to Mikhail as they both show similar qualities and vibe on ice.

Very tiny point, because I geek out on names and languages.

It js true that "Siao" would be the common short form of Adam's legal last name, which has three parts. Adam's family (ancestors) emigrated to Mauritius. In Mauritius, for whatever reason, the immigration authorities wrote the whole name of the immigrant as the last name. For the most part, Sino Mauritians have the three part last name. When they emigrated to France, they had that name and they used it. And the French pronunciation of Siao appears to me to correlate to the name we transliterate as "Zhou" in English. But that is just to my very uninformed ear.

I agree about Misha and Adam. I like many of Adam's skates, Benoît's choreo fits him well. Misha is a great jumper and is showing more and more personality. He has yet to show even a quarter of Adam's choreo, so I do not consider them equivalent skaters.

 

[gkelly]

the problem is that the TES difference can be huge even among the top contenders... while the PCS difference will barely vary among the top ten... I am don't think we should have 30-40 points difference in PCS in the top ten at worlds... that's not what I am saying... but skaters with weaker blade mastery like Shaidorov, Memola, Malinin, Egadze, should not score in the same 3-5 point range as Brown, Cha, Kagiyama etc.

So what would be a good solution? Increase the factors for the program components?

Men's PCS are currently capped at 50 for short programs, 100 for free skates. But with today's jump content, TES for the top guys is often much higher than that. Time to change the factoring.

(Deleting one jump pass after next year might help a little, but not enough.)

And, especially if women are going to be doing quads, their PCS factors should increase as well, perhaps to what the men's are now. But with the age increase and Russians currently out of competition, that hasn't been as much of an issue lately.

I think the base value for a step sequence level 1 should be 2 points, 4 for a level 2, 7 for a level 3 and 10 for a level 4, with proportionnal GOE.
Then we would see wonderful skating skills

That too.

 

[Arigato]

I don't think fans who like Adam will move to Mikhail until he does a signifcant progress in anything else than jumps, for now it's hard to compare these skaters and it has nothing to do with Ilia. Moreover, I think it's more plausible that Ilia's fans move to Mikhail as they both show similar qualities and vibe on ice.

I like both of them but for completely different reasons. It's like music, I don't just listen to one genre. When Adam skates his best at Worlds he gets a PCS of 92. When Shaidorov skates his best at Worlds he gets a PCS of 82. Enough said. For anyone to suggest people would suddenly stop watching Adam is comical. Even more so would be the reason of simply watching Shaidorov. There's no logic there. One doesn't have to make a choice. I watch skaters from many countries for many reasons.

One of the few things Adam and Shaidorov have in common is the skater they both mentioned who inspires them: Yuzuru Hanyu.

On a side note - whoever brought up dramatically increasing base value on a step sequence is something I have been vocal about for years. I have a hunch it won't ever pass since it means some men would actually have to learn how to skate. Well.

 

[4everchan]

So what would be a good solution? Increase the factors for the program components?

Men's PCS are currently capped at 50 for short programs, 100 for free skates. But with today's jump content, TES for the top guys is often much higher than that. Time to change the factoring.

(Deleting one jump pass after next year might help a little, but not enough.)

And, especially if women are going to be doing quads, their PCS factors should increase as well, perhaps to what the men's are now. But with the age increase and Russians currently out of competition, that hasn't been as much of an issue lately.



That too.

i proposed nixing PCS altogether while raising BV of steps and spins

 

[4everchan]

Did someone really suggest that Adam and Misha are similar ?
OK. I guess we can agree to disagree on that.

My take on MIsha : gosh he has improved in one year... but still.. though his landings are nicer, his jumps more controlled, his air position better, there is very little if anything to cheer for. The basic stroking seems to be better too.... he looked like Bambi at worlds in Montreal but in Boston, his basic skating looked better (though I wasn't at the rink for Boston)...

His improvement makes me associate him much more with Ilia than anyone else really.

There is nobody like Adam right now on the circuit. The closest, perhaps, with a different skating style of course and less ability with jumps, would be Frangipani with his intensity... I guess they have the same choreographer so that might just be that... but I do feel that both Adam and Frangi go all in and give all they have on the ice in a way that is unequaled right now on the circuit

 

[Karoltyna]

I like both of them but for completely different reasons. It's like music, I don't just listen to one genre. When Adam skates his best at Worlds he gets a PCS of 92. When Shaidorov skates his best at Worlds he gets a PCS of 82. Enough said. For anyone to suggest people would suddenly stop watching Adam is comical. Even more so would be the reason of simply watching Shaidorov. There's no logic there. One doesn't have to make a choice. I watch skaters from many countries for many reasons.

One of the few things Adam and Shaidorov have in common is the skater they both mentioned who inspires them: Yuzuru Hanyu.

On a side note - whoever brought up dramatically increasing base value on a step sequence is something I have been vocal about for years. I have a hunch it won't ever pass since it means some men would actually have to learn how to skate. Well.

In fact, I too like Mikhail, just the way I like whole bunch of skaters. Step sequence level 3 should be at least equal to a tripple jump (not 3T, more 3F). It's damn hard to get all the turns, ice coverage and speed together, certainly not easier than jumping a tripple. I still wish that choreo sq would be replaced with spiral sq for women and second maybe step sq with compulsory spiral element for men, TBH I wouldn't miss all these the slides much. It's so saddening that if you want to see decent spiral, you have to watch Jari Kessler "spending whole 30 seconds on artistry" - I think it was Chris or Ted talking about him.

 

[Karoltyna]

Did someone really suggest that Adam and Misha are similar ?
OK. I guess we can agree to disagree on that.

My take on MIsha : gosh he has improved in one year... but still.. though his landings are nicer, his jumps more controlled, his air position better, there is very little if anything to cheer for. The basic stroking seems to be better too.... he looked like Bambi at worlds in Montreal but in Boston, his basic skating looked better (though I wasn't at the rink for Boston)...

His improvement makes me associate him much more with Ilia than anyone else really.

There is nobody like Adam right now on the circuit. The closest, perhaps, with a different skating style of course and less ability with jumps, with be Frangipani with his intensity... I guess they have the same choreographer so that might just be that... but I do feel that both Adam and Frangi go all in and give all they have on the ice in a way that is unequaled right now on the circuit

I think this person believes "we" (whoever that means) don't like Ilia that much that "we" will cheer for anyone who has chance of touching him. Not that Adam and Mikhail are similar, but that fans see them as ones who can beat the "foe" (Ilia). Some people tend to think that everything in contemporary FS about Ilia and you can only worship or hate him and if you hate him, you will make your fan choices based on which skater is able to beat him. Exactly here:

I have some thoughts on the explosive popularity of Shaidorov this season—and good for him; the guy worked hard for it—and imo it has more to do with the knee jerk reaction a certain group of fans continues to exhibit to everything Malinin does, than with skating. First, they attached to Fa, now they attached to Shaidorov.

Nah, this isn't working this way is all I can say. First of all I like Adam because of his skating. I watched Euros in 2024 after a long break from FS since 2014 because I was so discoiraged after Sochi. I didn't literally see Ilia skating before as the only comp I watched during these 10 years was women FS in Bejing. I saw Adam and guess what, I loved the way Adam skated because I always loved beauty and intensity of skating above all. I will like Adam forever just the way I like Stojko, Lambiel or Joubert. When my mini-Stephane (Ean Weiler) will come to seniors, I will like him the same way I like Adam, but it will be multiplicating my feelings, not transferring them from Adam to Ean. Second I can't even say I dislike Ilia, why would I dislike him? I dislike the way he is scored and that it causes the competition to be boring, that's all.
I'd say Mikhail is receiving popularity because he is the same type of skater as Ilia.

 

[Mathman]

i proposed nixing PCS altogether while raising BV of steps and spins

I actually did take an interest in the question of whether PCS play any role at all. I went through a bunch of competition protocols comparing the actual overall event winners to the "TES winners."

After a while, though, I kind of lost interest in the project. It turned out to be about what one would expect -- in general the strongest TES skaters grabbed the top spots, with a little jockeying up and down here and there.

For example, Four Continents:

Actual podium: Shaidorov, Cha, Jimmie Ma. TES podium: Shaidorov, Cha, Ma. (In PCSsTomono beat Ma by 7.74 points and Shaiderov by 3.05 points, but it wasn't enugh.)

Ladies. Actual podium: C. Kim, Tennell, Eberhardt. TES podium Kim, Eberhardt, Tennell. (Ternnell overtook Eberhardt by PCS.)

I didn't learn anything from the exercise, frankly.

 

[4everchan]

I actually did take an interest in the question of whether PCS play any role at all. I went through a bunch of competition protocols comparing the actual overall event winners to the "TES winners."

After a while, though, I kind of lost interest in the project. It turned out to be about what one would expect -- in general the strongest TES skaters grabbed the top spots, with a little jockeying up and down here and there.

For example, Four Continents:

Actual podium: Shaidorov, Cha, Jimmie Ma. TES podium: Shaidorov, Cha, Ma. (In PCSsTomono beat Ma by 7.74 points and Shaiderov by 3.05 points, but it wasn't enugh.)

Ladies. Actual podium: C. Kim, Tennell, Eberhardt. TES podium Kim, Eberhardt, Tennell. (Ternnell overtook Eberhardt by PCSs.)_

I didn't learn anything from the exercise, frankly.

Now do the same but use higher base value for non jump elements