Reputational judging in figure skating

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Also, I absolutely loathe reputation scoring. I get why judges are inclined to do it, but it doesn't make it okay.

It also really sucks when you have a wonderful skater like Davide Lewton Brain miss out on the Olympic spot by less than a point. And he would have made history for Monaco - but it was the very nature of him being from Monaco that denied him that spot.

Yeah, he flubbed the final spin and that "made the difference", but looking at his competition he was insufficiently rewarded on PCS (the 6.5's for a clean well-skated SP were criminal). And he got underscored on GOE too - look at his 3S+3T (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-C3sMwbIEE#t=3m4s) got 0's from 2 judges and mostly +1's; his 2A+2T+2T sequence in the FS (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-C3sMwbIEE#t=3m10s), I have no idea why it got 0's from 7/9 judges. His CSSp4 in his SP had speed and good positions (as far as men go) - change of foot to the music, difficult entrance and interesting exit, but got four 0's and even a -1?!?

Meanwhile, Gummenik getting -4s on a (what should have been but he's AIN so he wasn't) downgraded super sloppy 4Z. (FYI I do enjoy Petr Gummenik's skating and while he has a lot of two-footed skating and his program lost speed at the end I think he's definitely one of the better Russian men - and, unlike Petrosian, was scored fairly on PCS, IMO.)

Compare Petr Gummenik's ChSq (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSKkeebjEMc#t=4m13s) to Davide Lewton Brain's ChSq (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-C3sMwbIEE#t=4m15s).

In no world should the first one outscore the second one, yet it did. Petr's was still expressive and the leap was smooth, but the spread eagle and hydroblade (if you can call it that) were slow and lacked ice coverage, but Davide's had way more speed, ice coverage, musicality and risk (even if you treat it as an absolute and not compare it to Petr's it deserves WAY more than +1s).

Never mind Individual Neutral Athletes. What the sport actually needs is some Individual Neutral Judges.

 

[Mathman]

^ To me, that assessment is overly harsh. Since this is a thread about "reputation" my bottom-line takeaway is that in this completion Petrosian neither enhanced nor diminished hers. She goes away as she came in -- not the button on Fortune's cap, nor the soles of her feet.

IMO the judges felt the same way. On the one hand, she won the competition and it's better to win than to lose. Conversely, she did nothing to distance herself from other aspirants. Looking at the protocols, the top three were evenly matched, with a big gap between that trio and the rest of the field, as expected. The only thing that seems to show any judges' favoritism to Petrosian is that she got a lot of +3s on elements that deserved only a +2. LOL.

As for opportunities for nitrpicking and wuzrobbing, this event provided thin gruel. We will have to wait until later in the season before making our Olympic predictions.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

^ To me, that assessment is overly harsh. Since this is a thread about "reputation" my bottom-line takeaway is that in this completion Petrosian neither enhanced nor diminished hers. She goes away as she came in -- not the button on Fortune's cap, nor the soles of her feet.

IMO the judges felt the same way. On the one hand, she won the competition and it's better to win than to lose. Conversely, she did nothing to distance herself from other aspirants. Looking at the protocols, the top three were evenly matched, with a big gap between that trio and the rest of the field, as expected. The only thing that seems to show any judges' favoritism to Petrosian is that she got a lot of +3s on elements that deserved only a +2. LOL.

As for opportunities for nitrpicking and wuzrobbing, this event provided thin gruel. We will have to wait until later in the season before making our Olympic predictions.

How do you feel about the PCS though? She's getting PCS in a pre-season qualifier, for her first time showing of that program, that some long-time seniors (who actually deserve mid-8's) would dream to get at the end of the season when scores are higher. No triple axel or quad either, and just one XXXX-triple combo... so it's not like her overall content was harder.

9.00 is like "you're already a top skater/your program is already near-perfect". Yes, she skated cleanly, but can guarantee you that if she wasn't from Russia she would not have come even close to that.

Safonova is a good example of the distinction - she practically absolutely clean (some nitpicky tech calls but no visible errors) in the FS with 7 triples... but she's Belarussian and got hit with 5's and 6's. That might be the cleanest skate ever to have received a 5.00 for presentation.

The other travesty was Sakovleva not getting the 5th she deserved - a basically clean FS... and Zhang edging her out overall for the Olympic spot (the only skater to get all level 4s, interestingly). I guess even being Russian-born wasn't enough. Representing Cyprus and threatening the home skater from getting an Olympic spot was her downfall - even though Zhang literally had a fall.

 

[Mathman]

9.00 is like "you're already a top skater...

Well, that's the crux of the matter right there. In principle 9.0 should mean that you stated really, really well. It should not be about "what you already are" before the skating begins.

I do, however, bow to human nature and to the realities of judged activities, and I am not all that irate over it.

As to Petrosian's PCS, they seemed OK to me for what she did. The judges put Hendrickx a tick higher, Gubanova about the same in the SP and LP.

As for the Olympics, my crystal balll has not changed as a result of this competition. I still think that Pertrosian with two quads and a clean program will be hard to beat. Pertosian with no ultra-C jumps or with multiple errors will not be hard to beat. That's my line and I'm sticking to it. For now.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Well, that's the crux of the matter right there. In principle 9.0 should mean that you stated really, really well. It should not be about "what you already are" before the skating begins.

I do, however, bow to human nature and to the realities of judged activities, and I am not all that irate over it.

As to Petrosian's PCS, they seemed OK to me for what she did. The judges put Hendrickx a tick higher, Gubanova about the same in the SP and LP.

As for the Olympics, my crystal balll has not changed as a result of this competition. I still think that Pertrosian with two quads and a clean program will be hard to beat. Pertosian with no ultra-C jumps or with multiple errors will not be hard to beat. That's my line and I'm sticking to it. For now.

Yeah I agree that she will need ultra-Cs to win, but I fully suspect shenanigans from the Russian fed that will prop her up. She might get leniency on tech calls too (some of her elements were borderline for me even if her protocol sheet looked clean). Petrosian clean with two quads in the FS will be likely unbeatable because that's about 8-10 points higher, which would negate any PCS advantage (which I still think will be diminished come the Olympics - not saying she'll be getting 37/74.. but she'll be creeping on 35/70 PCS by then.

But would be interesting to see if she goes for the 3A in the SP. I don't think she needs it, with a backloaded 3-3, and PCS will probably be around 34-35 with the Russian boost. Even without the 3A in the SP, mathematically (no pun intended!) she would win, even if the judges were reserved with her PCS (which they won't be, regardless of how she skates). If she can score a 66 first time showing a program with no ultra-C's, her PCS will hit 70 come the Olympics... maybe 67-68, if she has errors.

While 5 months is a long time away, it's also a short time too.... Kaori doesn't need an ultra-C, and neither does Hendrickx or Levito. Liu isn't starting the season strong, but lotta ways to go. I wouldn't count out some of the Japanese skaters who have triple axels too, or the Koreans if they can put it together.

It'll be a more even playing field because Petrosian won't have the senior competitions to pump up her PCS with one clean competition after another the way they did with Lipnitskaia back in 2014, but as with Sotnikova back in 2014, if she gets it together the judges just might hand her the win, even if she doesn't have the best skate technically.

 

[Mathman]

Alisa, it’s hard to say. No, she did not get off to a blockbuster start, but last year she didn’t win anything of consequence (6th and 4th at her two Grand Prix events and 2nd at U.S. Nationals) before she jumped up and tore the roof off the joint (presentation-wise) at Worlds. I do think, though, that she has at least a 50-50 chance of corralling the triple Axel by February. Then again, I predict that at least one of the Koreans and at least one of the Japanese do, too.

As for PCSs, to me they just don’t carry a large enough point spread to separate the best from the good. Petrosian got 66 here. Liu only got 70 at Worlds despite having the most crowd- and judge-pleasing presentation, especially in Boston. Sakamoto has the best skating skills, but her 72 in PCS at worlds would not put her much ahead if others out-tech her.

Actually, this has all the makings of a great competition.

 

[TallyT]

Scoring has been outrageous for 3 years.

And the quad before that. (I am not touching your point about Ilia Malinin and Yuzuru because I freely admit I may be biased... no I'm not ). Looking at 2019-22, it is impossible to swallow that judging was anywhere even close to squeaky-clean.

 

[Mathman]

Poor judges, If a judge doesn't go along with his fellows, he's incompetent. If he does, that's collusion.

I'm just a babe in the woods amid the tigers and dragons that prowl figure skating fan boards.

 

[TallyT]

I'm just a babe in the woods amid the tigers and dragons that prowl figure skating fan boards.

From medievalistmatt on instagram... I couldn't resist.

 

[TallyT]

View attachment 9909
From medievalistmatt on instagram... I couldn't resist.

I also think many of us sometimes feel, especially on the wilder boards and social media, like...

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Well, that's the crux of the matter right there. In principle 9.0 should mean that you stated really, really well. It should not be about "what you already are" before the skating begins.

What she is, is Russian, and the score is inflated because of it.

Let’s be clear - a 9.0 being given to you by a judge swayed by politics doesn’t mean you skate really really well - it is a score that SHOULD be awarded to if you skate really really well, regardless of where you hail from.

On that note, someone from a “lesser” country may never have the politicking to get them those 9.0’s and certainly not off the bat. It doesn’t mean they don’t skate really, really well.


Hanyu fell 4 times and got multiple 9’s at GP China 2014. Was that what you’d call skating “really really well”? http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpchn2014/gpchn2014_Men_FS_Scores.pdf

Chan was disastrous in the FS at 2013 Worlds and got several 9’s too. That sure as heck ain’t skating really really well. https://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2013/wc2013_Men_FS_Scores.pdf

Zagitova and Kostner bombed their frees at 2018 Worlds and got 9.00’s (Kostner didn’t receive anything lower than a 9.00 on any component in spite of several major errors - and Zagitova had 3 falls. Meanwhile a younger less established Hendrickx at the time skated basically clean and didn’t get a single 9.00. https://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/wc2018/wc2018_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

 

[Mathman]

Hanyu fell 4 times and got multiple 9’s at GP China 2014. Was that what you’d call skating “really really well”?

Well, in principle the GOE is supposed to be somewhat independent of the jumping. I suppose it is possible to fall 4 times and still to present excellent choreography, musicality, graceful movement, blade skills/

For me, I just can't settle into all these conspiracy theories, seeing a spook hiding behind every bush.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Well, in principle the GOE is supposed to be somewhat independent of the jumping. I suppose it is possible to fall 4 times and still to present excellent choreography, musicality, graceful movement, blade skills/

For me, I just can't settle into all these conspiracy theories, seeing a spook hiding behind every bush.

This is the type of problematic rhetoric that judges use all the time to “justify” absurdly high scores. Mathman, you know better than that to buy into that.

Go back and watch those performances and watch another time those freeskates were performed cleaner, and tell me if the choreography, transitions and presentation did not suffer with those errors.

How is it fair to other skaters (many who skate clean) if someone who fall 4 times is given better presentation scores than them?

How many times is a popular skater allowed to fall until the judges can drop them below a 9?

What does Safonova have to do to not get 5s and 6s with a 7-triple Freeskate. You think getting a better program or improving her speed will ever make up for her not being Russian anymore?

Look at Valieva at the Olympics - you think she committed to her choreo and transitions and deserved 70 PCS? The gesture she made at the end of her program showed even SHE knew that was a throwaway program - but I guess because the judges gave her 9.00s that means she definitely skated really really well. Please.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Does reputational judging prove that most judges don't really understand what they are supposed to be assessing? Otherwise they would objectively assess each performance on its merits, right?

Forgot to answer the OP.

Reputational judging doesn’t necessarily mean judges dont know what they’re assessing. The issue is that their understanding of what fair judging should be is superseded by them judging based on politics and reputation.

If you put paper bags on every skater’s head and never said which country they were from they would probably assess each skater more accurately, as trained to.

 

[Arigato]

How is it fair to other skaters (many who skate clean) if someone who fall 4 times is given better presentation scores than them?

How many times is a popular skater allowed to fall until the judges can drop them below a 9?

What does Safonova have to do to not get 5s and 6s with a 7-triple Freeskate. You think getting a better program or improving her speed will ever make up for her not being Russian anymore?

Look at Valieva at the Olympics - you think she committed to her choreo and transitions and deserved 70 PCS? The gesture she made at the end of her program showed even SHE knew that was a throwaway program - but I guess because the judges gave her 9.00s that means she definitely skated really really well. Please.

Actually, he fell 5 times. Not 4.

The time Yuzuru Hanyu overcame an UGLY collision to take Cup of China silver | NBC Sports

Two-time Olympic champion Yuzuru Hanyu recovered from an ugly collision in warmups and multiple falls in his free skate to win silver at the 2014 Cup of Chin...

www.youtube.com

 

[TallyT]

Well, in principle the GOE is supposed to be somewhat independent of the jumping. I suppose it is possible to fall 4 times and still to present excellent choreography, musicality, graceful movement, blade skills/

The judges were of course affected - everyone in that rink was, poor Kovtun skating straight afterwards was clearly shellshocked. But I watch the video of that skate (through my fingers, god Yuzuru you were mad to do that, he said in an interview in 2015 he spent much of it mentally going "oh man the sitspin, don'twannadoitdon'twannadoitdon'twannadoit...") and yep, his actual skating was beautiful. Yes yes I know the moon gets in my mind's eye but it was!

Even for those who disagree, there is a difference between judges getting all emotional and judges getting all political. The former is human, the latter annoys.

 

[Magill]

This is the type of problematic rhetoric that judges use all the time to “justify” absurdly high scores. Mathman, you know better than that to buy into that.

Go back and watch those performances and watch another time those freeskates were performed cleaner, and tell me if the choreography, transitions and presentation did not suffer with those errors.

How is it fair to other skaters (many who skate clean) if someone who fall 4 times is given better presentation scores than them?

How many times is a popular skater allowed to fall until the judges can drop them below a 9?

How many of those other skaters would like to switch places with Yuzuru and be knocked unconscious on the ice during their 6-minute warm up by a fellow skater in an awful accident recorded by the cameras? How many of them would be able to skate their program at all afterwards nevertheless?
GP China 2014 was an extreme situation, a kind that happens like once in the history of the sport. This is not an example of systemic abuse of the scoring system, this is just judges shocked as they were, doing the only thing that was humanly possible at these circumstances - awarding his bravery and courage, and his skating skills that let him not fall on any triple despite the state he was in, rotate his quads, and complete his skate, spins, steps et al, at all, as it did demand and did show an amazing skill and will power. And, yes, letting the skater keep the place in the competition that he held after the SP and just before the accident, and go on competing in the GP cycle when healed, if possible, not punishing him any further for another's unintentional mistake. I see nothing wrong with it, quite to the contrary, in my opinion, it was the only thing humanly possible to do in the circumstances, and completely justified as such. One to be applauded, not criticized.
If you want to show systemic abuse of the scoring system with this example, you are simply barking a wrong tree. Find some more fitting examples.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

How many of those other skaters would like to switch places with Yuzuru and be knocked unconscious on the ice during their 6-minute warm up by a fellow skater in an awful accident recorded by the cameras? How many of them would be able to skate their program at all afterwards nevertheless?
GP China 2014 was an extreme situation, a kind that happens like once in the history of the sport. This is not an example of systemic abuse of the scoring system, this is just judges shocked as they were, doing the only thing that was humanly possible at these circumstances - awarding his bravery and courage, and his skating skills that let him not fall on any triple despite the state he was in, rotate his quads, and complete his skate, spins, steps et al, at all, as it did demand and did show an amazing skill and will power. And, yes, letting the skater keep the place in the competition that he held after the SP and just before the accident, and go on competing in the GP cycle when healed, if possible, not punishing him any further for another's unintentional mistake. I see nothing wrong with it, quite to the contrary, in my opinion, it was the only thing humanly possible to do in the circumstances, and completely justified as such. One to be applauded, not criticized.
If you want to show systemic abuse of the scoring system with this example, you are simply barking a wrong tree. Find some more fitting examples.

Sorry, where is bravery/courage in the code of points?

Gutsy skating is one thing but his competitors train hard and everyone should be treated similarly. Some skaters skate well and they will never score even close to 84 points, even with good tech content and clean skates - simply because they hail from the wrong country. They will lose opportunities and get edged out by sloppier skaters who have not earned their marks.

I put multiple examples too - Yuzuru was not a one-off (though that competition is arguably the worst case of favouritism judging ever internationally). The fact that he had an accident and skated and was brave or whatever has nothing to do with the fact that the judging was unfair. He also tripled a quad and flubbed his combo in his SP and still had 44.42 PCS.

And Arigato - you’re right it was 5 falls - not that it even mattered. He still got the highest PCS scores. If I’m a competitor I’d be like what’s the point even competing if my competitor misses 2/3 jumping passes in the SP and falls 5 times and still gets better presentation marks. It’s not like the program was salvaged either - it was hard to watch, he was understandably slower, and the falls compromised his transitions and choreography.

It’s like Kostner’s fall right at the end of her program - and still getting mid 9’s… as if that has barely any impact on the overall impression of a program and we should just gloss over it because they’re a popular/well accoladed skater.

Applauding a skater for competing while injured and with a head injury - I can’t even with that. His choice of course but it was dangerous and sends the wrong message competing with a likely concussion - a way worse message than you can fall 5 times and get 84 PCS if your popularity is sound enough. (Ps Han Yan also had a bad skate after being part of that collision - anyone giving him bravery/brownie points for still competing?)

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Well, in principle the GOE is supposed to be somewhat independent of the jumping. I suppose it is possible to fall 4 times and still to present excellent choreography, musicality, graceful movement, blade skills/

For me, I just can't settle into all these conspiracy theories, seeing a spook hiding behind every bush.

And we need to stop this fallacy that PCS (I assume you meant that not GOE) is supposed to be independent of jumping/elements.

PCS is program component scores - jumps/elements are part of the program. If somebody falls on every jumping pass, bails every lift, trips out of each spin, and stumbles in their footwork, you shouldn’t be able to award them 9’s because they stayed on their feet and had really really nice skating during the inbetweens.

Invariably multiple major errors diminish the impact of the program, which was the case in all my aforementioned examples. Sometimes you get a rare case like Brown or Osmond who sells a program regardless of how bad it’s going, but the point is, a program cannot be considered “excellent”/9.0 presentation if there are multiple major errors/falls. 9.0’s with 2 falls is crazy, let alone half the jumping passes have falls.

You have to judge based on what you see - not what you anticipate seeing.

It’s not about conspiracy theory, it is about fairness and common sense.

 

[TallyT]

The thing is, this discussion is about reputational scoring, and the whole traumatic mess that was both Yuzuru's and Han Yan's COC had little to do with reputation and everything to do with emotion (and the fact that even when injured he simply skated better than the rest. Jumps too, he fully rotated and that was what mattered then.)

Even if you think he was overscored - and I know you and others do, that's not the point in discussion here - it's not relevant to this discussion because the factors involved were not reputational. The example you gave from Patrick who was not walking wounded in front of everyone may be better, but I don't recall the skate in question.

(PS - he did not have a head injury, other than a cut which bled a lot. He confirmed that in the same interview, the real damage was his chin, his front and thighs.)