Copyright question re: Skate America videos on youtube

[Mathman]

But how about the people who upload vids from the European or Asian broadcast of the events? Unless the events are from SA, I can't see how USFS can claim that footage as theirs. It's not THEIR recording, and it's not THEIR event.

What I got out of Antman's posts was that it is not so much a question of copyright as of broadcast rights. Obviously you can't claim a copyright on someone else's work. But the owner of a production can sell exclusive broadcast rights.

The only part of the argument that I don't go along with is when people say, hey, I paid $29 to see this, it's not fair that you can see it for free. To me, that argument doesn't hold water. You paid your money and you got what you paid for. You are not hurt by what other people do or don't do.

I agree with Fiercemao (a first! ) I think USFS is cutting off it's nose to spite its face. The best thing that could happen for USFS is if skating videos were all over the Internet getting a million hits a day. A rising tide floats all boats. It would not hurt IceNetwork in any way. Enthusiasts would still sign up for live coverage, in-demand, commentary, etc. And more people would come out to figure skating shows and competitions.

 

[R.D.]

Like THAT stops anyone.

I know, but at least it gets the word out, you see?

I agree with Fiercemao (a first! ) I think USFS is cutting off it's nose to spite its face. The best thing that could happen for USFS is if skating videos were all over the Internet getting a million hits a day. A rising tide floats all boats. It would not hurt IceNetwork in any way. Enthusiasts would still sign up for live coverage, in-demand, commentary, etc. And more people would come out to figure skating shows and competitions.

Careful. It cuts both ways. Suppose I was thinking of joining Ice Network to see the GP competitions. Say that I didn't particularly care for live coverage and I just wanted to SEE the skaters. Well, if they're showing up on Youtube and other sites a day or so after, why bother? I'm getting what I can for free, and it's nice. Plus all those people who complained about technical issues and bad customer service? that scares me too.

Otherwise, I see your point. I still think the USFS should openly host their footage on an official YouTube Channel.

disclaimer: the above is just an example. I'm a current, satisfied member of Ice Network.

 

[dorispulaski]

Pete, One correction. I know at least one youtuber who had their account deleted. There was no warning. It was just deleted. This is a Russian user who was uploading NTV (Russian) footage. If there is a single video, they may warn (maybe?), but in general, it's too much trouble and they just take down the account.

Furthermore, here's what youtube reports the last couple of days in their pink bar:

This video was removed at the request of US Figure Skating

.

Rather than the usual they were using last week

This video has been removed due to terms of use violation.

They don't want the backlash, evidently

As to how the Chinese website tudou, which has mostly Chinese footage works:
Here's a vid from the 2006 Olympics exhibition of Delobel and Schoenfelder. It
runs with some hesitations, but on replay, runs smoothly. So if you are unable to buy icenetwork in your country, this is one site that may work for you. Give it a try. It's a little daunting to see all those chinese characters, but if you keep firmly in mind that it works like youtube, it will work for you.

http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/d6Fb1b0Kd1E/

 

[mycelticblessing]

I agree with Fiercemao (a first! ) I think USFS is cutting off it's nose to spite its face. The best thing that could happen for USFS is if skating videos were all over the Internet getting a million hits a day. A rising tide floats all boats. It would not hurt IceNetwork in any way. Enthusiasts would still sign up for live coverage, in-demand, commentary, etc. And more people would come out to figure skating shows and competitions.

I remember Philip Hersh writing an article about this at Skate America last year. He also criticised the clampdown on YouTube videos. He, too, felt that the USFS were not doing themselves a favor, and said that it made no sense that they were concerned about the waning publicity and appeal of the sport, but at the same time were putting in measures to ensure that many did not get to see skating videos.

 

[fiercemao]

As to how the Chinese website tudou, which has mostly Chinese footage works:
Here's a vid from the 2006 Olympics exhibition of Delobel and Schoenfelder. It
runs with some hesitations, but on replay, runs smoothly. So if you are unable to buy icenetwork in your country, this is one site that may work for you. Give it a try. It's a little daunting to see all those chinese characters, but if you keep firmly in mind that it works like youtube, it will work for you.

http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/d6Fb1b0Kd1E/

Actually I'm finding lots of stuff on dailymotion. The video feed runs very smooth on that site. I think more and more figure skating fans will start to upload videos to that site instead of youtube.

The more i think about this, the more flimsy I believe IN's claim on internet broadcast rights. There's no doubt in my mind that IN ONLY has internet broadcast rights of GP events/Words/Jr. Words WITHIN the U.S, not around the globe, otherwise they will not restrict people outside of America from watching GP events. So the only basis they have by asking youtube to take down the videos is that youtube does not have the technology to filter US spectators from watching those videos even they are not uploaded within US, and are not produced by NBC. I am very confident this claim will not stand scrutiny in court.I guess youtube simply does not want to be boggled down so they just oblige.

IMHO, there's no way other similar sites outside U.S. such as dailymotion, tudou will take IN's absurd claim seriously. So maybe from now on, we'll just resort to those sites for viewing.

 

[Tonichelle]

I just feel it's a lot of whining just to hear ourselves whine.

yeah, it'd be nice, but yeah the USFSA/Ice Network has the right to do it. It's their contract, don't like it take it to the right source(s).

Considering skating loses more money than it makes in the broadcast medium then I say more power to IN for protecting their product.

 

[R.D.]

but yeah the USFSA/Ice Network has the right to do it. It's their contract, don't like it take it to the right source(s).

I think that is what is being done. People aren't getting mad at Youtube for taking down the vids; they are directing their frustration at IN/USFS for requesting the takedown in the first place.

 

[Tonichelle]

and that's my frustration. USFS is not in teh wrong in the slightest. I have no problem with them requesting the vids being taken down. it's NOT their fault that youtube bans all of the vids by a multiple time offending user.

 

[antmanb]

Entire post.

Thanks you very much for that informative post. Can you guys int he states watch the Eurosport live player of events? I'm still wondering how Eurosport are able to broadcast everything that IceNetwork have rights to, unless they have managed to disable viewing from the US.

Does anyone with good IT/Web knowledge know if it is easy to stop broadcasts to foreign countries? I would have thought it's virtually impossible unless people are actually registering to use the site?

Ant

 

[antmanb]

But how about the people who upload vids from the European or Asian broadcast of the events? Unless the events are from SA, I can't see how USFS can claim that footage as theirs. It's not THEIR recording, and it's not THEIR event. So what do we do?

No but they have the internet broadcast rights therefore as (exclusive?) licensee their rights, which they have paid a lot of money for are being breached.

Ant

 

[antmanb]

Actually I'm finding lots of stuff on dailymotion. The video feed runs very smooth on that site. I think more and more figure skating fans will start to upload videos to that site instead of youtube.

The more i think about this, the more flimsy I believe IN's claim on internet broadcast rights. There's no doubt in my mind that IN ONLY has internet broadcast rights of GP events/Words/Jr. Words WITHIN the U.S, not around the globe, otherwise they will not restrict people outside of America from watching GP events. So the only basis they have by asking youtube to take down the videos is that youtube does not have the technology to filter US spectators from watching those videos even they are not uploaded within US, and are not produced by NBC. I am very confident this claim will not stand scrutiny in court.I guess youtube simply does not want to be boggled down so they just oblige.

IMHO, there's no way other similar sites outside U.S. such as dailymotion, tudou will take IN's absurd claim seriously. So maybe from now on, we'll just resort to those sites for viewing.

Please share with us your reasons why you think it would not stand up to scrutiny in court?

Ant

 

[Mathman]

The law aside, I think USFS is coming off like mean bullies. I don't see how this can possibly be good for the sport of figure skating.

 

[fiercemao]

Please share with us your reasons why you think it would not stand up to scrutiny in court?

Ant

Okay, this is going to be a long response, and I'll break it down piece by picece, so be paitent.

First part:

First of all, you seem to suggest IN has the exclusive internet broadcast rights of GP/Worlds/Jr. World etc around the world, that is obviously NOT the case. IN only has exclusive internet broadcast rights in the US. There are two pieces of evidence to support this without even asking them directly. 1) IN has blocked viewers outside of America from watching these events online. If they have the broad internet rights, there's absolutely no reason for them to do so, on the contrary, they would like more subscribers to increase their revenues; 2) Companies in other countries do broadcast these events on the internet. CBC in Canada webcasts almost all of these GP events live, although they block people outside of Canada from seeing them, so obviously CBC has the exclusive broadcast right including internet in Canada; A Russian Company WebTV allows people around the world including in U.S. to watch their webcast by charging a fee. I believe IN has a much much stronger case against WebTV than youtube.


Second Part:

If you agree the conclusion of first part, the legal foundation for IN to ask youtube to take down those videos is very very flimsy. Many of these videos are uploaded outside of US, the video materials do not belong to IN, and the purpose of those videos is obviously not for entertaining American fans. Let's see one example. Youtube user A in China uploaded Caroline Zhang's 'Cup of China' LP, CCTV version to youtube. The copyright of the video is obviously with CCTV, but CCTV has no intention of claiming the rights to youtube. Why the hell can arrogant IN ask youtube to take down those videos? Again, IN does not own it, the videos are not targeted for American internet users, it is American internet users who initiate the request to youtube server. If IN wants to claim their exclusive internet broadcast rights are violated, they should sue the internet users, not YOUTUBE. Because YOUTUBE is just a platform, they should only respond to the complaint of a company which actually owns those video materials.

Third Part:
If you're okay with the conclusion of the second part. There is only one flimsy excuse touted by some people on behalf of IN. The excuse is that youtube has an obligation to block American viewers from see these videos. But since youtube does not offer the technology such as blocking American IP addresses, then they have the obligation to take down every video that has the potential to be seen by American viewer. This sort of reasoning has very shaky legal foundation if YOUTUBE decides to ignore IN's request.

First of all, YOUTUBE is just an internet platform, they can argue it's the US viewers, not YOUTUBE that have violated IN's right. IN needs to sue those viewers, not ask YOUTUBE to take down some 'foreign' video materials that IN do not own, that were uploaded by 'foreigners'. If IN's argument stands the scruity of the court, any internet platform will not be able to survive. It's very difficult for Yahoo/Google/Msn etc to control the content posted by their users. They will always warn the posters have the obligation to comply with IP laws, but it's very difficult for a company to sue them of such violation since they only offer a platform. It is even more difficult for IN to sue YOUTUBE because again IN does not have the right on those video materials, the videos are not intended for American viewers. IN can argue that YOUTUBE has the obligation to block American viewers from seeing those videos. Sine they're not doing so, they have to take down the videos completely. I'm not sure how strong this argument is in legal terms. YOUTUBE can argue American viewers have initiated the request to youtube server, and they have no control. Second, they don't have a mature technology to selectively block American viewers from seeing these videos. Let's have a similar example. Assuming a satellite broadcast Company A in Canada has the exlusive broadcast rights of GP events in Canada, and broadcast company B has the exclusive broadcast rights in the US. Obviously due to the technology limitation, some parts of the US territory, especially US-Canada border will be able to receive the satellite signal, there's simply no way to avoid this. Can company B claim Company A in Canada violates their exlusive broadcast rights in US under such circumstances?

 

[dorispulaski]

Yes, Eurosport player will not play if you have an ip address traceable to the United States. (I've tried)

Likewise, most of the CBC player coverage is unviewable here. I'm not sure whether Eurosport Turkey or Daum black out the US.

 

[fiercemao]

Yes, Eurosport player will not play if you have an ip address traceable to the United States. (I've tried)

Likewise, most of the CBC player coverage is unviewable here. I'm not sure whether Eurosport Turkey or Daum black out the US.

Yes, but that does not mean they are taking order from IN. They do so because they want to protect their own rights.

 

[mycelticblessing]

Does this also mean that they will take down all of next year's world championships videos too since it is held in L.A.?

 

[dorispulaski]

A good question. Isn't NBC broadcasting worlds, rather than IN?

They didn't have worlds last year on IN.

 

[Tonichelle]

NBCUniversal is going to have it shown on Oxygen and NBC (I think NBC has a couple of hours programmed?)

but I think IN also has it on its schedule.

 

[R.D.]

Nope...they do not. I checked...repeatedly and did a double take and all that. Can't find it.