Interesting Johnny Tidbit (On Jumps)

[Mathman]

Was it inadvertent? or was it an incapability?

A very salient point in this discussion.

There are many skaters -- I would say, among the ladies, most -- who have never in their lives done a proper triple Lutz jump off an outside edge, and never will. Yet the IJS point structure directs them to put it in their program anyway. Take the 1 or 2 point hit on GOEs and go on with your program.

I do not see any practical difference in inventing a new de jure jump, the flutz, with a base value of 4.0, and the current practice of encouraging the de facto jump, the Lutz "e", with a base value of 6.0 and a required -2.0 in GOE.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Ant - You've torn my post apart! which makes for good discussion, but each one of your items, I believe, would make a separate thread.

I'll just answer the last one, because I have an appointment to get a haircut and I don't want to look like Johnny Weir's cut.

The Lip is quite a jump when the easier way would be to do a proper Flip.
The Flutz is no big deal because the feel of doing 3 air turns is easier.
Until they list the Wally, the true Lutz will continue to be the Queen of All Jumps.
The Axel remains the King of All Jumps. It's the only one whose base is more than one revolution. (Although, I see it as an overrotated Waltz jump gone awry.)

Off to the Barbers.

 

[gkelly]

I agree with all the rest of antmanb's post, but I have to take issue with this:

I'm not sure on what you are basing the idea that back inside edges are "more difficult" than outside edges. Ask a beginner to hold a back inside edge and back oustide edge and i think you'll find the inside edges are much easier to hold than the outside.

In what situation is this true? If you ask a very beginner to do backward stroking from one foot to the other, they will find it easier to do so on inside than outside edges, but they would be practically flat anyway.

But when you get to actually holding deep edges on curves, back outsides are generally easier.

Somewhere in the learn-to-skate levels skaters are often taught to skate around a hockey circle with back crossovers and then hold a back outside edge (to get used to what will become the landing edge for jumps, although at this point they should do it in both directions). Holding a back inside edge around a circle would be much more challenging at this level.

Skaters usually learn forward outside threes before forward inside ones, but not much before. Once the turn itself is accomplished, how easy is it to hold the exit edge? The back outside edge after the inside three in the preferred direction (i.e., the jump landing edge) is probably the easiest to hold. The back inside edge after the outside three is harder to hold; in beginners usually change feet to an outside edge as soon as possible, or if they're doing a salchow jump after the turn they tend to rush the takeoff rather than holding the back inside edge as long as they should.

The first standard USFSA test that skaters take, either Prepreliminary Moves in the Field or, way back when, the Preliminary figure test, asks for all the edges across the rink on a hockey line. When I took these tests, I definitely found the back insides the hardest to control, and I see it all the time from kids working on the Prepre moves today.

(Also on the US figure tests, back outside eights were on the first test and back insides were on the second test.)

I don't know what the progression of required skills is like in the UK. Does it somehow reflect back inside edges being easier for beginners?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

A very salient point in this discussion.

There are many skaters -- I would say, among the ladies, most -- who have never in their lives done a proper triple Lutz jump off an outside edge, and never will. Yet the IJS point structure directs them to put it in their program anyway. Take the 1 or 2 point hit on GOEs and go on with your program.

I do not see any practical difference in inventing a new de jure jump, the flutz, with a base value of 4.0, and the current practice of encouraging the de facto jump, the Lutz "e", with a base value of 6.0 and a required -2.0 in GOE.

I just see the acceptance of the Flutz when one considers the importance of the Lutz's Name, and definition. Since the Names of jumps come from their take-off edge and that is not being met as well as the difficulty of jumping from a counterrotation edge, I just can't see a Flutz as valid at all!!

The Flutz is acknowledged as an illegal jump and therefore should be judged illegal and not scored. The real question is: Is it an Attemped Lutz and should be scored with a small penalty? If the Program Planning Sheet lists 3Lutz, and the skater can put that anywhere in his program, and is unable to fulfill the definitive toe-off which gives a jump it's name, who's to say that was an attempt? or was it a flaw in the scoring system? or did the skater know well it would get points regardless of whether the lutz was genuine or not?

IMO, once a proper Lutz has been executed, it can be judged on how well that jumped was performed. To judge an illegal jump is just not good sportsmanship.

 

[gkelly]

There are many skaters -- I would say, among the ladies, most -- who have never in their lives done a proper triple Lutz jump off an outside edge, and never will. Yet the IJS point structure directs them to put it in their program anyway. Take the 1 or 2 point hit on GOEs and go on with your program.

This was true under the 6.0 system too -- there were rules against repeating triple jumps, but that didn't stop skaters from putting two flutzes and/or two flips in a long program for a total of more than two total toe jumps from the back inside edge. Did judges take deductions for doing too many flips and only give credit for two of them? Did they count the flutzes as lutzes and discount their value because of the quality errors on the takeoffs? No way of knowing which judges took which approach. But there certainly wasn't a clear enough penalty that skaters who could land both consistently would choose not to repeat them.

And in short programs the penalty for doing a flutz instead of a true lutz and also doing a flip was just a deduction for the edge change, depending on severity, not for repeating a jump.

 

[libby]

Ant - You've torn my post apart! which makes for good discussion, but each one of your items, I believe, would make a separate thread.

I'll just answer the last one, because I have an appointment to get a haircut and I don't want to look like Johnny Weir's cut.

Joe, according to the photo you had of yourself on this forum for years, it would take either an act of God or the Hair Club for men for you to be able to get anything resembling Johnny's haircut.

 

[antmanb]

Entire post on back inside and outside edges.

To be honest i was basing it on my own skating experience and that of the three adults i learnt with.

I haven't tested at all so I am not sure about what is required but I am fairly certain that all forward and backward edges are tested in the first test but cannot be sure as to how and if there is a sequence for learning the different things.

Me and my friends all found back inside edges easier to hold than outside edges at the beginning. The main reason, for me, was that on an inside edge - if you fall off the edge you fall inwards and therefore onto the other foot. Conversely to get the back outside edge you must lean over to that outside edge and if you lean too far then your fall is outside the circle with no other leg to stabilise a fall - you actually go down.

Trying to hold outside and inside edges in a serpentine as a beignner seemed easier off the inside edge than the outside edge. On the outside edges i always needed one or two chassees to get round the semi circle, whereas i could nearly always squeak it out on the inside edge without any other help.

Similarly my experience with back cross overs has been that originally i generated all of my movement by keeping the inside edge of the "in front" skate (that's tough to describe - if you look at the way the toes are pointing it's the in front skate but in terms of the direction you are travelling it is the trailing skate!)on the ice all the time in a sculling motion with the majority of my weight on it and picking up the outside edge "behind skate" and placing it back down. Later on i've had to work on getting down on that outside edge and getting a true under push and ankle flex including putting some of my weight back and onto that skate.

Equally now trying to execute what in the UK testing system is called backward one foot slaloms - i find it easier to get the bending and edge pull action off an inside edge compared to an outside edge. On the inside edge i can often get that "rip" but sadly the outside edge is distinctly lacking in it

Then with regards to forward three turns - I recall initially struggling to check the outside three turn and stop the rotation so that I could hold the BI edge exit, however, i think it was an issue of checking since on FI three turns the BO edge was equally as "swingy" and uncontrolled. The one thing i do remember is struggling with the FI edge required for the entrance to the turn and not being able to hold it long enough and often intiating the turn with the push from the other foot. Initiating an FO three turn from a long gliding FO edge has always been easier than intiating a FI three turn from a long gliding FI edge for me and that remains the case now especially on the "wrong" foot.

The preference for back inside edges over back outside edges is something that we all (me and my three skating friends) were in agreement on, so i assumed our experience was the same expierence as everyone else...obviously that might not be the case!

Ant

 

[gkelly]

The preference for back inside edges over back outside edges is something that we all (me and my three skating friends) were in agreement on, so i assumed our experience was the same expierence as everyone else...obviously that might not be the case!

I guess it depends which skills you're thinking of.

The alternating consecutive edges are the ones that came to my mind first, and for that one the back insides are notoriously hardest.

 

[antmanb]

I guess it depends which skills you're thinking of.

The alternating consecutive edges are the ones that came to my mind first, and for that one the back insides are notoriously hardest.

Are they the ones where you keep your body more or less square with the short side of the rink and then go down the rink doing inside edges first on one foot then the other?

If so then i do recall having problems with them - namely getting very little circle and needing much deeper edges and knee bend. Running out of steam doing them and finding it hard to start them without any momentum going in to them. But still struggling less with them than with my scrapey, slow consecutive back outside edges.

For me it was mostly about gripping with the toe pick when going backwards on outside edges because of the fear of falling, whereas on inside edges i experimented far more with getting my weight back into position because i wasn't so scared about falling since it would mostly mean just putting the other foot down.

It's that fear of the back outside edge that has really hampered my ability to try to learn a backspin. I can't get that edge and spin on it for love nor money now!

Getting a good edge in a landing position took an infinite amount of practice and even now if i have weeks off the ice i find my BO edge get scrapey through fear very quickly!

Ant

 

[Mathman]

This was true under the 6.0 system too -- ... Did judges take deductions for doing too many flips and only give credit for two of them? Did they count the flutzes as lutzes and discount their value because of the quality errors on the takeoffs? No way of knowing which judges took which approach.

My impression during that time was that they tended to take a point or two off the score to try to send the skater a message to work on their edges before the next competition.

Tara Lipinski was a famous example. She won the World Championship in 1997 (Michelle took herself out of it with a bad short program), and no one said anything about Tara's edges (or Michelle's either, for that matter.)

But the next season they hammered Tara, telling her and coach Richard Callaghan in so many words that they were expected to do better by the time of the Olympics. When the Olympics did roll around, either Tara had gotten a little better, or else the judges decided she had been punished enough and now it was time for the big show.

Now it is Mao Asada. She worked like the dickens to get her "e" down to a "!" At the big show in Vancouver, I would not expect Mao to get an edge call no matter what she did. Bad publicity for the sport. Plus, there is also the idea that in the championship game the referees should back off a little and let the athletes play ball.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Joe, according to the photo you had of yourself on this forum for years, it would take either an act of God or the Hair Club for men for you to be able to get anything resembling Johnny's haircut.

and it went from dark brown to gray and now completely white. What I should have said was the length of the hair. I'm not a long-lock-hair affectionado for men unless they are conducting an orchestra. - not even as a Prince in some dumb fairy tale. Butch haircuts rule :thumbsup:

 

[libby]

and it went from dark brown to gray and now completely white. What I should have said was the length of the hair. I'm not a long-lock-hair affectionado for men unless they are conducting an orchestra. - not even as a Prince in some dumb fairy tale. Butch haircuts rule :thumbsup:

Fair enough. I'm not actually a fan of the long-in-the-back style Johnny is sporting lately myself (although I can't say I much care for "butch" haircuts either). Every time I see a photo of Johnny this season, I just have the urge to sneak up behind him with a pair of scissors and chop that "mini-mullet" off.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I saw Tara as a phenomanal air spinner (not a rotator) at 2 inches off the ice and doing triples. It was remarkable. I would give her the honor as being the most gutsy skater in the business. Her edges varied as do they with all Rollers to Ice skaters but she skated with a lot of aplomb. However, her edge entry into the Lutz was another story. Were all those Flutzes a mere error? or were they caused by habit?

 

[Mathman]

It's a difficult but beautiful jump by definition and we should want to keep it that way.

This is the aspect of the debate that no one ever mentions.

Why do we care, in the first place, whether a skater does a proper Lutz or not? Are we just jumping through hoops for the sake of proving that we can jump through hoops? Are we jumping through hoops because someone will give us 6 points for jumping through hoops? (People will do anything for points. )

Or -- just maybe -- there is actually a reason to want to do a Lutz jump, and to do it from a clean outside edge.

The Lutz is the coolest jump. The counterroation thing gives it the appearance of delayed rotation. Like Michael Jordan in basketball, you leap into the air, then -- in seeming defiance of the laws of physics -- you do whatever you are going to do. Kevin van der Perren has a beaut!

If you flutz -- meh -- it's just another jump. I'd just as soon see a good Russian split jump (0 points).

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/34/73680365_e01cd3c935.jpg?v=0

 

[Medusa]

The Lutz is the coolest jump. The counterroation thing gives it the appearance of delayed rotation. Like Michael Jordan in basketball, you leap into the air, then -- in seeming defiance of the laws of physics -- you do whatever you are going to do. Kevin van der Perren has a beaut!

KVDP is actually one of the few men who received edge calls on his Lutz, he even took it out of the SP and substituted it with the Loop.

 

[Mathman]

^ Oh yeah? Check out this fine outside edge!

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0gyZ0rpcwQ5nN/340x.jpg

 

[gkelly]

^ Oh yeah? Check out this fine outside edge!

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0gyZ0rpcwQ5nN/340x.jpg

Huh?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Fair enough. I'm not actually a fan of the long-in-the-back style Johnny is sporting lately myself (although I can't say I much care for "butch" haircuts either). Every time I see a photo of Johnny this season, I just have the urge to sneak up behind him with a pair of scissors and chop that "mini-mullet" off.

I'm ok with Johnny;s haircut for Johnny. He is a stylist groomer in everything which makes him Johnny. A very unique guy.