New IOC Policy's on the SRY gene screening

[discodisco]

I think it's fine to disagree. But, ask any woman to prove how much of a woman she is, and I think you're not gonna like the (quite understandable) response.

Some might think this change is protecting women, but it's not—doing the opposite, in fact.

Not sure how you identify, but personally, as a man, I've got absolutely no effing say (nor should I) in women's bodies and women's dignity (whether cis or trans), other than supporting their right to both those things.

I have three daughters and a son. There's no way my son should be competing with any of my daughters. It's unfair and Incredibly disingenuous to suggest that the benefits of male puberty do not have a tremendous impact on everything from musculature and lung capacity to body frame size, etc, etc, etc. The validity of one's perspective opinion is not limited by whether they are a man or a woman.

 

[el henry]

I have three daughters and a son. There's no way my son should be competing with any of my daughters. It's unfair and Incredibly disingenuous to suggest that the benefits of male puberty do not have a tremendous impact on everything from musculature and lung capacity to body frame size, etc, etc, etc. The validity of one's perspective opinion is not limited by whether they are a man or a woman.

And your son would not be competing with your daughters, and this decision does not "protect" daughters. It's unfair and incredibly disingenuous to suggest that intersex women, affected by this decision, should be excluded from sport.

It's very sad with all the real problems that the IOC could address, they erected a straw person and then pretended to knock it down.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I have three daughters and a son. There's no way my son should be competing with any of my daughters. It's unfair and Incredibly disingenuous to suggest that the benefits of male puberty do not have a tremendous impact on everything from musculature and lung capacity to body frame size, etc, etc, etc. The validity of one's perspective opinion is not limited by whether they are a man or a woman.

Do you allow your son to play sports against athletes who are of the same age but taller (basketball/volleyball etc), or stronger/heavier than him (hockey/football/etc.)? Should a male athlete who is naturally 7'2", but the same age of your son, be allowed to compete against your son—even if he's of the same age, but happens to have more dominant physical attributes?

Regarding your daughters, do you allow them to play sports against female athletes who are of the same age, but taller/heavier/more built/stronger, and have physical advantages for said sports? Do you think it is unfair to allow taller/stronger girls to play against your daughters because genetics/puberty has granted them physical advantages?

Note this happens in the Olympics all the time - the Olympics are literally a showcase of physical rarities that confer to advantage in sport. But the adulation seems to be rather one-sided..... Michael Phelps and Victor Wembanyama are praised for their genetic gifts which allow them to dominate.... whereas Imane Khelif or Castor Semenya (and other dominant female athletes) are constantly questioned/misgendered/jeered at/scrutinized.

Again, trans people do not transition for the purpose of better sports accolades and opportunities - transitioning is a monumental life decision which alters not only your body, but also fundamentally changes how you present yourself to the world and how you live your life... and it is asinine to think there is a significant (if any) number of people who are doing it just to give themselves a better shot at the Olympics.

 

[gsk8]

Understand that the new policy specifically states that:

"Athletes who screen negative for the SRY gene permanently satisfy this policy’s eligibility criteria for competition in the female category. Unless there is reason to believe that a negative reading is in error, this will be a once-in-a-lifetime test.

With the rare exception of athletes with a diagnosis of Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (CAIS) or other rare differences/disorders in sex development (DSDs) who do not benefit from the anabolic and/or performance-enhancing effects of testosterone, no athlete with an SRY-positive screen is eligible for competition in the female category at an IOC event."

This basically means that transgender women (who are SRY-positive) and some intersex/DSD athletes (who may have a testosterone advantage) cannot compete. However, athletes with CAIS (XY but completely insensitive to testosterone) can compete.

 

[gsk8]

Is your son trans? And if not, what is the likelihood of your son transitioning to becoming a woman, for the purpose of gaining athletic advantage in sports? Again, trans people do not transition for the purpose of better sports accolades and opportunities - transitioning is a monumental life decision which alters not only your body, but also fundamentally changes how you present yourself to the world and how you live your life... and it is asinine to think there is a significant (if any) number of people who are doing it just to give themselves a better shot at the Olympics.

I realize that this is an extremely sensitive topic, but please don't attack other posters.

What many people may not realize is that a transitioned woman (who went through puberty as a male) does give them an advantage in women's sports - even after hormone therapy. They still retain greater muscle mass and strength, larger bone structure and height, and higher past hemoglobin levels. While there may be less strength (after transitioning), some traits (height, limb length, skeletal structure) do not reverse. These are scientific facts.

So there can be a performance advantage in some sports, especially those relying on strength, speed, or power.

But this doesn't mean that people who understand this information are transphobic.

 

[el henry]

Respectfully, scientific research shows that women who have transitioned from male to female do not have an athletic advantage after one to three years of hormone therapy.


from the National Institutes of Health:

Sex differences and athletic performance. Where do trans individuals fit into sports and athletics based on current research? - PMC

There are well known sex differences in parameters of physical fitness/performance due to changes occurring during sexual development. Thus, many sport and athletic events have regulations separating male and female participants. However, the ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

from the Journal of Clinical Endoicronology and Metabolism:

https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/109/2/e455/7223439?login=false

from the British Journal of Sports Medicine:

https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/58/11/586

 

[gsk8]

Respectfully, scientific research shows that women who have transitioned from male to female do not have an athletic advantage after one to three years of hormone therapy.

Thanks!

You are partially right about this. I mentioned in my post above, while there may be less strength (after transitioning), some traits (height, limb length, skeletal structure) do not reverse.

But, as one of the sources you provided stated, more conclusive studies need to be done. One being a biological male that is already an athlete and has gone through puberty. One that may have already developed muscle mass, strength, lung capacity, etc. in a sport (i.e. swimming). Even after three years of hormone therapy, there may still be an advantage. It doesn't shorten swim strokes nor change the oxygen level of capacity on one's lungs that have developed.

Let's take Caitlyn Jenner for example. Let's says she transitioned right after her Olympic medal in 1976. Do you think she wouldn't have had some physical advantage over cis women had she competed against them three years later?

 

[discodisco]

And your son would not be competing with your daughters, and this decision does not "protect" daughters. It's unfair and incredibly disingenuous to suggest that intersex women, affected by this decision, should be excluded from sport.

It's very sad with all the real problems that the IOC could address, they erected a straw person and then pretended to knock it down.

I wasn't talking about intersex. I was talking about trans women. Ioc policies typically are very specifically related to DSD athletes. For example, when it comes to Caster semenya the runner, Caster has internal testes, and no uterus or ovaries. Caster semenya therefore produces testosterone at typical male levels, and Caster's body is able to utilize that testosterone in the same way that a boy going through male puberty does- the development of much greater musculature, lung capacity bone structure, and all the things that give males a biological and physiological Advantage.

There are DSD athletes who do not fit the category of caster semenya, and whose bodies do not necessarily produce testosterone at those levels, or their body is unable to utilize them. Those types of athletes are typically not targeted by the policies introduced by organizations such as World Athletics, for example, because there is no biological advantage. It is not the fault of Caster semenya, who grew up in a small rural village in south africa, that there was insufficient Medical know-how to provide the diagnosis, and therefore Caster semenya was raised as a girl. I have tremendous respect for that athlete, and also a tremendous degree of empathy, as a gay man myself, for what that experience must be like.

But that does not mean that female sport should be affected the way it was, or that multiple biological women were denied many medals and opportunities for endorsements, as well as the personal satisfaction of achievement, etc.

But regardless, my comment above was not about intersex athletes. It was about trans women, and while I again empathize with the desire to participate in sport in the category with which one identifies, we're not talking about the arts, or the sciences, or anywhere else that being male does not provide a natural benefit. However, we are talking about sports here which are by nature all about athletic performance, which is largely impacted by the presence of testosterone in male puberty.

 

[yfan1]

Respectfully, scientific research shows that women who have transitioned from male to female do not have an athletic advantage after one to three years of hormone therapy.

from the British Journal of Sports Medicine:

https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/58/11/586

This does not say anything like the conclusion you've made.

While longitudinal transitioning studies of transgender athletes are urgently needed, these results should caution against precautionary bans and sport eligibility exclusions that are not based on sport-specific (or sport-relevant) research.

That's its conclusion. Which is fine, but I don't believe there's any conclusive research one way or the other.

As you all were.

 

[dorispulaski]

What Is Hyperandrogenism?

Hyperandrogenism happens when you have excess androgens in your body. Learn the symptoms and treatment.

my.clevelandclinic.org

If your concern is the effects of high testosterone levels in the blood, there are any number of reasons that people with XX chromosomes have high testosterone levels. PCOS is the most common (10% of women)

High Testosterone in females: causes, symptoms, and more

Females usually produce very little testosterone. Learn about conditions that cause high testosterone in females, as well as about symptoms and treatment.

www.medicalnewstoday.com

What Is Hyperandrogenism?

Hyperandrogenism happens when you have excess androgens in your body. Learn the symptoms and treatment.

my.clevelandclinic.org

And it is necessary to understand:

Everyone produces androgens, but males naturally make much more than females. The most well-known androgen is testosterone. Androgens are mostly made in the testicles or the ovaries. Both sexes also make androgens in their adrenal glands. Hyperandrogenism affects about 5% to 10% of females of reproductive age. It’s less common in males.

The condition causes different symptoms based on your age and sex. It has several possible causes. There are several ways healthcare providers treat the condition.

Are you going to ban high testosterone XX chromosone people from participating in sports, too?

And there are boys and men with high estrogen levels

What Are the Symptoms of High Estrogen?

High estrogen levels can cause symptoms like irregular periods and mood swings. Learn more about how high estrogen can affect you.

my.clevelandclinic.org

Are you going to limit their participation in men's sports?

Brittany Griner is abnormally tall for a woman. Should she be limited from competing?


In the case of people competing in boxing or wrestling, such individuals are already sorted out into weight classes, which limits advantages of testosterone.

https://glaad.org/fact-check-participation-and-eligibility-of-paris-2024-olympic-boxers-imane-khelif-and-lin-yu-ting/

 

[yfan1]

Respectfully, scientific research shows that women who have transitioned from male to female do not have an athletic advantage after one to three years of hormone therapy.


from the National Institutes of Health:

Sex differences and athletic performance. Where do trans individuals fit into sports and athletics based on current research? - PMC

There are well known sex differences in parameters of physical fitness/performance due to changes occurring during sexual development. Thus, many sport and athletic events have regulations separating male and female participants. However, the ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

This also does not say what you said it does.

Finally, if it is found that trans individuals have advantages in certain athletic events or sports; in those cases, there will still be a question of whether this should be considered unfair, or accepted as another instance of naturally occurring variability seen in athletes already participating in these events.

from the Journal of Clinical Endoicronology and Metabolism:

https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/109/2/e455/7223439?login=false

Same here.

Limited evidence suggests that physical performance of nonathletic trans people who have undergone GAHT for at least 2 years approaches that of cisgender controls. Further controlled longitudinal research is needed in trans athletes and nonathletes.

And agreed that the issue deserves to be far smaller than it actually is, and that it's a strawman in many ways, but research is inconclusive and people mostly say we need more research, which is what all your links are saying.

 

[gsk8]

Are you going to ban high testosterone XX chromosone people from participating in sports, too?

That was not in the IOC policy.

 

[Mathematician]

FYI, biological women can still have the SRY gene. It's about 1 in 100,000.

Could you elaborate? I asked Google Gemini and it says that there are cases of XX individuals with the SRY gene, however it is inactive and hence allows typical female development. So the point is it's inactive. It also says there are only a few reported cases of such a thing. It also says there are XX individuals with the active gene and it basically just develops them into typical men. I'm not invested one way or another in this debate I'm just wondering about the facts provided here.

Oh ok I'm finding that there's a situation where an individual is XY but lacks sensitivity to testosterone.

Yea, probably the gender question can't be solved scientifically. At least not in a categorical way.

Apparently these individuals are taller with bigger hands and the like, but this is not really something I think you can ban them for. Interesting.

If they are so interested in the gender issue I wonder why they have to try reducing everything into one trait? Can't they have an index of multiple traits or something?

Oh but now I see that it's mentioned in the tread that CAIS specifically is accounted for. Well, then I guess I don't see a huge inconsistency here. I guess they're just tracking for male puberty.

 

[el henry]

This also does not say what you said it does.



Same here.



And agreed that the issue deserves to be far smaller than it actually is, and that it's a strawman in many ways, but research is inconclusive and people mostly say we need more research, which is what all your links are saying.

Just using your post to jump off, assuming that was the primary point of the studies (with which I would respectfully disagree):

This is my question: do we ban an entire group of people when we don't know?

based on the strawperson of Shaquille O'Neal in a dress?

My inclination is to say we don't do that, that's not fair. Which is why I found the studies interesting.

 

[Mathematician]

In the case of people competing in boxing or wrestling, such individuals are already sorted out into weight classes, which limits advantages of testoserone.

Well weight classes seem to track more with height than anything, which doesn't really track with testosterone very well.

 

[dorispulaski]

Muscle mass does, which affects weight.

 

[Mathematician]

Muscle mass does, which affects weight.

Muscle mass tracks with testosterone, of course. But, muscle mass isn't really something that combat athletes are after. It is more about speed and athleticism, which tracks minimally with weight but tracks enormously with testosterone, or you can imagine it as quality of the muscle. Meanwhile, weight tracks significantly with height. I mean, it's just an empirical fact looking at weight classes. They are basically height classes with exceptions. The exceptions are mostly regarding lower weight classes with some really lean but taller people. The per-pound athletic effectiveness of muscle tracks extremely significantly with testosterone. I just mean, weight classes don't have much to do with accounting for testosterone at all. Wrestling and boxing aren't bodybuilding.

Also what does track extremely significantly with testosterone is bodyfat %. Inversely. So again, this is about general body composition, which has push and pull effects regarding weight one way or another, but the net-effect of testosterone doesn't tend to track with weight at all, I don't think, when we're comparing biologically similar groups like male athletes competing in the same sport.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Also, and I realized, in a sense, men already DO compete against women in figure skating. Just look at any side-by-side elements you see in pairs or ice dance. The success is contingent on the men and women successfully completing these elements but these teams compete against each other. So technically, man in pair A is competing against woman in pair B... and nobody's arguing that it's unfair that biology favours pair A's man's lung capacity/muscle mass/strength/whatever (which can prove more advantageous in executing elements) moreso the woman in pair B.


And you see men compete against women in many other sports too. In mixed doubles tennis/badminton/table tennis, they don't disallow the man from hitting towards the woman. In curling, they allow men to compete against women and vice versa.

Let's take Caitlyn Jenner for example. Let's says she transitioned right after her Olympic medal in 1976. Do you think she wouldn't have had some physical advantage over cis women had she competed against them three years later?

This is a straw man argument. Caitlin Jenner did not identify as a woman in 1976.

Also - to reiterate for people in the back - trans people do not transition for the purpose of advantage in sport. Let alone after winning the Olympics already.

Also Caitlin Jenner is trash and terrible representation of the trans community.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Let's take Caitlyn Jenner for example. Let's says she transitioned right after her Olympic medal in 1976. Do you think she wouldn't have had some physical advantage over cis women had she competed against them three years later?

This is a straw man argument. Caitlin would not compete after winning the Olympics. And she is a terrible example of trans representation.

 

[dorispulaski]

There are a number of Olympic sports where women and men compete against each other:

Equestrian: Historically, this is the only sport where men and women still compete directly against each other in the same events (dressage, jumping, eventing) without gender separation.

Historical Context: Prior to 1984, shooting events were largely open, with men and women competing together. Notably, Zhang Shan won gold in the mixed-sex skeet event in 1992.