Rrecommendations for beginner skater coming off of rentals??

[square4]

@square4 . Additional info. Jackson separate stock boots come split width, with the heel narrower than the ball. If the difference in width between heel and ball is greater than what a stock boot can accommodate even with heat molding and punching out of the toebox, there are semi-custom and full custom options. Ask your fitter about these options, should the need arise.

thanks so much for such a in-depth reply!! i've given the shop that stocks the jacksons a call, and they said that they don't have the debuts in stock, but they do have the freestyles. would u know whether the fit for jackson freestyles and the debuts are the same? because if they are, i'll just gonna try on the freestyles first to see how they fit!

also, if i try on a boot, and i find it uncomfortable, how do i differentiate needing to modify it (via punching it out or getting a split width boot) or just having to look for a different brand? i really appreciate all the help and information everyone on this thread has given me

 

[Diana Delafield]

thanks so much for such a in-depth reply!! i've given the shop that stocks the jacksons a call, and they said that they don't have the debuts in stock, but they do have the freestyles. would u know whether the fit for jackson freestyles and the debuts are the same? because if they are, i'll just gonna try on the freestyles first to see how they fit!

also, if i try on a boot, and i find it uncomfortable, how do i differentiate needing to modify it (via punching it out or getting a split width boot) or just having to look for a different brand? i really appreciate all the help and information everyone on this thread has given me

I haven't worn Jacksons for many years, since they changed the fit completely. All I know is that the Debuts are stiffer and will take you farther without needing a change of model as you improve technically. The Freestyles are a softer boot and come with the blade attached as a set. This can be fine if the position of the blade is conveniently right for you. Most people, though, have some degree of pronation or supination (your fitter should have you stand so they can see which you do) and then your blades will be attached slightly offcentre by your shop's blade technician to counteract this tendency and allow you to skate in a straight line without fighting the blade. For anyone who just wants to putter around the rink with friends as a social activity, maybe just taking a few basic lessons, and whose budget is tight, the Freestyle would be all right. If you intend to learn and practise seriously, though, the Debut would be the way to go. IF Jacksons are the right brand to fit your particular feet, and that's your fitter's job to advise you on that.

As to your second paragraph, your fitter will tell you whether a boot you like but which has uncomfortable areas just needs moulding or whether the problem is serious enough to require ordering a split-width. You don't need to know and decide beforehand. That's also your fitter's job.

 

[square4]

I haven't worn Jacksons for many years, since they changed the fit completely. All I know is that the Debuts are stiffer and will take you farther without needing a change of model as you improve technically. The Freestyles are a softer boot and come with the blade attached as a set. This can be fine if the position of the blade is conveniently right for you. Most people, though, have some degree of pronation or supination (your fitter should have you stand so they can see which you do) and then your blades will be attached slightly offcentre by your shop's blade technician to counteract this tendency and allow you to skate in a straight line without fighting the blade. For anyone who just wants to putter around the rink with friends as a social activity, maybe just taking a few basic lessons, and whose budget is tight, the Freestyle would be all right. If you intend to learn and practise seriously, though, the Debut would be the way to go. IF Jacksons are the right brand to fit your particular feet, and that's your fitter's job to advise you on that.

As to your second paragraph, your fitter will tell you whether a boot you like but which has uncomfortable areas just needs moulding or whether the problem is serious enough to require ordering a split-width. You don't need to know and decide beforehand. That's also your fitter's job.

thanks so much for ur reply!! i was just a little worried bc i need to go to separate stores to try out different brands and i didn't want to accidentally buy the wrong brand for my foot bc i got swayed by the shop haha

 

[Diana Delafield]

thanks so much for ur reply!! i was just a little worried bc i need to go to separate stores to try out different brands and i didn't want to accidentally buy the wrong brand for my foot bc i got swayed by the shop haha

Rule of thumb: If your heel doesn't fit snugly in the boot at first try, as you sit and stand and move your foot around experimentally, don't buy no matter how much the fitter coaxes. That part can't be moulded like the rest of the boot can, and a snug (not painfully tight) fit is essential for your safety. Your heel shouldn't be able to shift up and down as you move, once you have it settled in place. And be sure to wear the same thickness of socks or tights you're going to wear to skate.

 

[tstop4me]

thanks so much for such a in-depth reply!! i've given the shop that stocks the jacksons a call, and they said that they don't have the debuts in stock, but they do have the freestyles. would u know whether the fit for jackson freestyles and the debuts are the same? because if they are, i'll just gonna try on the freestyles first to see how they fit!

The Freestyles and the Debuts are both fabricated on the Jackson Elite last (boot form). Therefore the fit will be very similar, though not identical. Differences in construction elements such as padding, lining, and tongue will affect the final fit. The basic fit should be close enough, however, such that if the Freestyle fits well, the Debut should also fit well. On the flip side, if the Freestyle does not fit well, the Debut won't either.

The Debuts and Freestyles both come in two values of stiffness for women's and two values of stiffness for men's. Debuts are available in stiffness values of 45, 50, 55. Freestyles are available in stiffness values of 40, 45, 49. So they aren't waaay different, and you should get a reasonable feel for stiffness from trying on a Freestyle. Worst case scenario would be if the shop has only a 40 women's Freestyle for you to try on, but you decide to order a 55 men's Debut.

also, if i try on a boot, and i find it uncomfortable, how do i differentiate needing to modify it (via punching it out or getting a split width boot) or just having to look for a different brand?

You've got the sequence in reverse order. As much as feasible, adjustments to the boot (such as heat molding and punching out) should be viewed as fine-tuning operations, rather than major surgery. So, you should first try on a variety of boots (which under your circumstances might be limited) to see which provides the best fit as-is, and then consult with the tech to determine whether it can be adjusted to resolve any remaining issues. Some issues may not be able to be resolved in a stock boot.

If two models are close, the tiebreaker would be to consider which is easier to adjust and which has a wider range of adjustment. Different models (even by the same manufacturer) might be fabricated from different materials and might have different construction details. For all this, however, you are dependent on a competent, experienced tech ... so ask your coaches and more experienced skaters for their experiences.

Again, check your shop's return policies. In the US, typically if the boots are modified in any way (including heat molding and mounting blades), they can't be returned. If they aren't modified, they usually can be returned, but also usually with a fee. Policies vary with individual shops (and often depends on whether you're a new customer or a long-time customer who's done a lot of repeat business and brought in many referrals). So ask up front.

 

[square4]

The Freestyles and the Debuts are both fabricated on the Jackson Elite last (boot form). Therefore the fit will be very similar, though not identical. Differences in construction elements such as padding, lining, and tongue will affect the final fit. The basic fit should be close enough, however, such that if the Freestyle fits well, the Debut should also fit well. On the flip side, if the Freestyle does not fit well, the Debut won't either.

The Debuts and Freestyles both come in two values of stiffness for women's and two values of stiffness for men's. Debuts are available in stiffness values of 45, 50, 55. Freestyles are available in stiffness values of 40, 45, 49. So they aren't waaay different, and you should get a reasonable feel for stiffness from trying on a Freestyle. Worst case scenario would be if the shop has only a 40 women's Freestyle for you to try on, but you decide to order a 55 men's Debut.



You've got the sequence in reverse order. As much as feasible, adjustments to the boot (such as heat molding and punching out) should be viewed as fine-tuning operations, rather than major surgery. So, you should first try on a variety of boots (which under your circumstances might be limited) to see which provides the best fit as-is, and then consult with the tech to determine whether it can be adjusted to resolve any remaining issues. Some issues may not be able to be resolved in a stock boot.

If two models are close, the tiebreaker would be to consider which is easier to adjust and which has a wider range of adjustment. Different models (even by the same manufacturer) might be fabricated from different materials and might have different construction details. For all this, however, you are dependent on a competent, experienced tech ... so ask your coaches and more experienced skaters for their experiences.

Again, check your shop's return policies. In the US, typically if the boots are modified in any way (including heat molding and mounting blades), they can't be returned. If they aren't modified, they usually can be returned, but also usually with a fee. Policies vary with individual shops (and often depends on whether you're a new customer or a long-time customer who's done a lot of repeat business and brought in many referrals). So ask up front.

Hi! thanks so much for ur reply! from my phone call with the shop, it seems if I choose to go for the debuts, it will need to be ordered(which means they cant be returned if they dont fit :C ). and it turns out, the debuts cost the same as the premieres??!! and if they cost the same, should i just get the premieres cuz they are the better boot? or would that be overbooting??


anyways, just to make sure that I'm not forgetting anything:

for jackson: try on freestyle, get debuts if they fit

for risport: try on the electra? and rf line probably won't fit so make sure to try on the royal line

For edea and aura, they prob won't fit, but still give them a try?

+ MK blades

+ make sure that the heel fits before anything!!!


thanks everyone for all your help!!! i definitely feel a lot more prepared for buying skates, i'm really glad i asked here before anything lol i had no idea about the heel thing!

 

[Diana Delafield]

Hi! thanks so much for ur reply! from my phone call with the shop, it seems if I choose to go for the debuts, it will need to be ordered(which means they cant be returned if they dont fit :C ). and it turns out, the debuts cost the same as the premieres??!! and if they cost the same, should i just get the premieres cuz they are the better boot? or would that be overbooting??

I'm surprised the cost is the same. My shop prices the men's Debut boots at $526.99 and the men's Premieres at $577.96 . However, perhaps the shop you tried had the Premieres on sale. Your coach is the one to ask if the Premieres would be too much boot for you. He or she is the one who sees how you skate, carefully and cautiously or pushing your boots hard, and knows if your style can handle the extra stiffness or if it would hamper your basic stroking. I'm small, but I wear boots with 90 stiffness and go through an average of two pairs a year because I work them hard as a pair skater.

anyways, just to make sure that I'm not forgetting anything:

for jackson: try on freestyle, get debuts if they fit

And remember, to avoid sticker shock. that the Freestyle comes as a set with the blades attached. $539.95 for the boot+blade set at my shop. The Debuts and Premieres, however, are boots only. You still have to buy the blades -- MK Pros are $382.49 at my shop -- and have them attached -- $65.99 fee for blade mounting where I shop.

 

[square4]

I'm surprised the cost is the same. My shop prices the men's Debut boots at $526.99 and the men's Premieres at $577.96 . However, perhaps the shop you tried had the Premieres on sale. Your coach is the one to ask if the Premieres would be too much boot for you. He or she is the one who sees how you skate, carefully and cautiously or pushing your boots hard, and knows if your style can handle the extra stiffness or if it would hamper your basic stroking. I'm small, but I wear boots with 90 stiffness and go through an average of two pairs a year because I work them hard as a pair skater.

And remember, to avoid sticker shock. that the Freestyle comes as a set with the blades attached. $539.95 for the boot+blade set at my shop. The Debuts and Premieres, however, are boots only. You still have to buy the blades -- MK Pros are $382.49 at my shop -- and have them attached -- $65.99 fee for blade mounting where I shop.

alright, thanks so much! I'll make sure to ask my coach what he thinks

 

[tstop4me]

from my phone call with the shop, it seems if I choose to go for the debuts, it will need to be ordered(which means they cant be returned if they dont fit :C ). and it turns out, the debuts cost the same as the premieres??!! and if they cost the same, should i just get the premieres cuz they are the better boot? or would that be overbooting??

I'm seeing some red flags here. Before you start expanding your options, please confirm with your shop the following:

(1) What specific models of Freestyles do they have in stock for you to try on? Women's and men's? Ask them for the specific 4-digit model numbers (e.g., 2190 or 2192) What widths (both R and W for women's? both M and W for men's?) do they have in stock for you to try on?

(2) If you order a Debut or a Premiere, again what specific 4-digit model numbers would they be? Note that Jackson started rolling out the latest generation of Debuts and Premieres only about a year ago (with the latest men's Premiere released only a few months ago). So stocks of the previous generation models are still readily available (and many online listings mix-up the generations). The new models are more expensive than the old models. It's odd enough that your shop would charge the same for a men's model as for a women's model; but it's really odd for your shop to be charging the same for a Premiere as for a Debut. I wonder whether they are planning to sell off old models. The way to check is to ask them for the specific 4-digit model codes.

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[Ic3Rabbit]

thanks so much for the recommendations!!! i think I will just go to hkskateco after all, because that's who my coach recommended lol

anyways, if edea doesn't work for wide feet, would you know whether risport does? cuz those are the two brands that the shop carries!

thanks again for your reply!! it was very helpful

You're welcome! And thanks for asking: Yes to a degree Risport makes boots for wider feet but not too wide. They have two lines of boots and for wider feet and your foot shape you are going to want to look at the RF line of boots. The Risport Royal line is too much like Edea and more than likely would not work for you.

Happy skating!

 

[square4]

I'm seeing some red flags here. Before you start expanding your options, please confirm with your shop the following:

(1) What specific models of Freestyles do they have in stock for you to try on? Women's and men's? Ask them for the specific 4-digit model numbers (e.g., 2190 or 2192) What widths (both R and W for women's? both M and W for men's?) do they have in stock for you to try on?

(2) If you order a Debut or a Premiere, again what specific 4-digit model numbers would they be? Note that Jackson started rolling out the latest generation of Debuts and Premieres only about a year ago (with the latest men's Premiere released only a few months ago). So stocks of the previous generation models are still readily available (and many online listings mix-up the generations). The new models are more expensive than the old models. It's odd enough that your shop would charge the same for a men's model as for a women's model; but it's really odd for your shop to be charging the same for a Premiere as for a Debut. I wonder whether they are planning to sell off old models. The way to check is to ask them for the specific 4-digit model codes.

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On their website, it said that 2190, 2191, 2192, 2193 are stocked, and it seems that both R/W, M/W sizing is available. And from what i was getting, it seems that every other model they need to order it, and they don't have it on stock in the shop.

About the debuts and premieres, I gave them a call, and unfortunately I don't think the worker really understood what I was asking. But she did say the premieres were 2550? Which I'm assuming is the older ones? She said she didn't know the code for the debuts. I expected that if they don't have it stocked anyways that they would be ordering the newest ones? I guess not??

I'm hoping I'm going to get more answers when I actually go there for a fitting tho! Cuz the last time I called them, a diff worker picked up, and he seemed to know a lot abt jacksons. But I'm guessing the older models are still suitable??

 

[square4]

You're welcome! And thanks for asking: Yes to a degree Risport makes boots for wider feet but not too wide. They have two lines of boots and for wider feet and your foot shape you are going to want to look at the RF line of boots. The Risport Royal line is too much like Edea and more than likely would not work for you.

Happy skating!

thanks for ur reply!!

would the electras be ok for my level or should i be looking straight at the RF3 pros?

 

[tstop4me]

On their website, it said that 2190, 2191, 2192, 2193 are stocked, and it seems that both R/W, M/W sizing is available. And from what i was getting, it seems that every other model they need to order it, and they don't have it on stock in the shop.

Well, that's good news. You'll be able to try on women's and men's over the available range of widths (remember some overlap, but full range of widths is different for women's and men's) and stiffness.

2190: women's 45 stiff; 2191: women's 40 stiff; 2192: men's 49 stiff; 2193: men's 45 stiff

About the debuts and premieres, I gave them a call, and unfortunately I don't think the worker really understood what I was asking. But she did say the premieres were 2550? Which I'm assuming is the older ones? She said she didn't know the code for the debuts. I expected that if they don't have it stocked anyways that they would be ordering the newest ones? I guess not??

She's wrong:

Latest Debuts:

2550 women's 50 stiff; 2551 women's 45 stiff; 2552 men's 55 stiff; 2553 men's 50 stiff

Latest Premieres:

2850: women's stiff 65; 2852: men's stiff 69


Personally, I would go with the new over the old. But then, I'm biased towards leather. Here's one of my previous posts discussing old vs new Premiere. The comments concerning differences in materials also apply to old vs new Debut, but the comments concerning hook patterns do not (Debut always had standard 4-row straight-line hook system)..

The 2802 and 2852 Premiere both have Fusion soles. The 2802 is the recently discontinued previous model, and the 2852 is the current new model. The new women's model 2850 was released about a year ago, but the new men's model 2852 was released only about 3 months ago. Jackson has a confusing history of first launching a new women's model, then waiting 6 months+ before launching the corresponding new men's model.

The 2802 should cost substantially less than the 2852 both because its initial price was less and because it's being sold off at clearance prices. That said, there are good reasons to opt for the 2852. The uppers of the old 2802 were fabricated from synthetic microfiber. This material turned out to be not all that abrasion resistant, so Jackson then clad the front portion of the boot with Dura Guard, a clear plastic wrap (analogous to putting vinyl slipcovers over upholstered furniture). The uppers of the new 2852 are now fabricated once again from leather (no Dura Guard needed).

The Premiere also had a long history of using a bizarre 5-row hook system arranged in a zig-zag pattern. This never made any sense to me, because both lower models (such as the Debut) and higher models (such as the Supreme) used a 4-row hook system arranged in a straight-line pattern. With the 2852, Jackson has finally ditched the 5-row zig-zag hook pattern on the Premiere and reverted to the 4-row straight-line hook pattern used in the rest of their lineup.

 

[tstop4me]

I'm hoping I'm going to get more answers when I actually go there for a fitting tho! Cuz the last time I called them, a diff worker picked up, and he seemed to know a lot abt jacksons.

When you ask coaches and more experienced skaters for recommendations about shops, always ask for recommendations for specific staff members (fitters/techs) if the shops have more than one staff member. Call in advance and arrange an appointment with a specific staff member. In my experience, the competency and experience of different staff members at the same shop can vary substantially. And unfortunately, when a newbie like you walks in, often you will be served by the most junior member unless you've made specific arrangements otherwise in advance. The shop I now go to is a one-man operation; so I no longer have that problem.

 

[tstop4me]

For edea and aura, they prob won't fit, but still give them a try?

That pretty much depends on the store policy for how much time they're willing to allocate to you for trying on boots. For your own education, it's worthwhile for you to slip on various pairs and compare the differences in fit. That way you can verify directly for yourself and not have second guesses afterwards. If your forefoot is indeed "quite wide", it will be quickly obvious that boots with narrow pointed toeboxes aren't right for you. On the other hand, I believe that one poster here originally thought she had really wide feet; but when she went to get fitted, it turned out she didn't.

And remember what I said earlier about considering ease of adjustment and range of adjustment. E.g., heat-moldable Jacksons can be simply popped in a Jackson oven and baked uniformly in its entirety. Edeas can't be oven baked; they need to be spot heated via a hairdryer.

ETA: If you haven't already done so, please read the thread I previously cited in Reply #14:

"Also, read through this previous thread for tips on fitting and sizes: https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/threads/skates-fitter-advice-for-adult-beginner.103345/. "

 

[square4]

Well, that's good news. You'll be able to try on women's and men's over the available range of widths (remember some overlap, but full range of widths is different for women's and men's) and stiffness.

2190: women's 45 stiff; 2191: women's 40 stiff; 2192: men's 49 stiff; 2193: men's 45 stiff



She's wrong:

Latest Debuts:

2550 women's 50 stiff; 2551 women's 45 stiff; 2552 men's 55 stiff; 2553 men's 50 stiff

Latest Premieres:

2850: women's stiff 65; 2852: men's stiff 69


Personally, I would go with the new over the old. But then, I'm biased towards leather. Here's one of my previous posts discussing old vs new Premiere. The comments concerning differences in materials also apply to old vs new Debut, but the comments concerning hook patterns do not (Debut always had standard 4-row straight-line hook system)..

Alright, thanks so much for the info!! i'll def ask them about the 2852s available! I noticed from the sizing that unlike the debuts 2552/2553, that the 2852s only go from 6-13. Is there another 285X model that makes the smaller sizes?? Obviously, aesthetics matter less than how they fit, but I was kinda hoping for a black boot..

On another note, from what I read from the threads here, it seems that buying secondhand boots is discouraged. How about secondhand blades???

 

[tstop4me]

On another note, from what I read from the threads here, it seems that buying secondhand boots is discouraged. How about secondhand blades???

Unless you (or someone you know who is willing to accompany you to the shop) knows how to inspect and evaluate blades, a definite no to secondhand blades.

 

[square4]

Unless you (or someone you know who is willing to accompany you to the shop) knows how to inspect and evaluate blades, a definite no to secondhand blades.

noted!! will definitely buy a new mk pro blade (or coronation ace?)

 

[tstop4me]

Alright, thanks so much for the info!! i'll def ask them about the 2852s available! I noticed from the sizing that unlike the debuts 2552/2553, that the 2852s only go from 6-13. Is there another 285X model that makes the smaller sizes?? Obviously, aesthetics matter less than how they fit, but I was kinda hoping for a black boot..

The older 2802 did come in boy's sizes. Have your shop check with Jackson if and when they plan to offer the 2852 in smaller sizes. As I mentioned before, the 2852 was released only earlier this year, and Jackson has a history of confusing rollouts of new models.

 

[square4]

The older 2802 did come in boy's sizes. Have your shop check with Jackson if and when they plan to offer the 2852 in smaller sizes. As I mentioned before, the 2852 was released only earlier this year, and Jackson has a history of confusing rollouts of new models.

I see! thanks for this information! i think if jacksons is the brand for me I'll either get the newer black debuts or the newer white premieres

on a side note, on the shop's product catalogue I noticed that there were a lot of blades that were around the similar price point as the coronation aces and mk pros like the matrix legacies and the apex blades (supreme, freestyle, elite)

to be honest i was particularly swayed by the colors on the matrix legacy blades(), and was wondering whether they are considered a good beginner blade? As for the apex blades, they r around 25usd more expensive than the mk pros and coronation blades, and I was wondering whether i should get one of those instead if they are a better blade?