Senior Ladies LP | Page 22 | Golden Skate

Senior Ladies LP

But...it always throws a bucket of cold water on the celebration when the winner backs into the championship with a less that stellar performance. If Alissa had skated cleanly, everyone would be in her cheering section at Worlds, win or lose. The way it is now, if she messes up, a whole lot of folks will be saying "I told you so, why did USFS ever send this loser?" Even more pressure, which is the last thing she needs.

I think Rachel will be top 10 barring a melt-down. Alyssa's placement will depend more on how the others do, because even if she does her best, she will still need outside help to contend.

As for Caroline, she already won it a few years ago.. If I were her, I would want someone else' to win.

think about it for a sec...I doubt that would be the mindset any real competitor would take. They want to be the best, no matter how many times they've already won.
 
One has to think if Alissa is an international favorite. She has a couple of GP medals not in the Finals, and now she has a local gold medal. Will that play in Vancouver?
 
Interesting that Ashley was placed 1st in the LP while skating in the penultimate group. She was solid but not special. Not that I disagree with her placing, but again, why didn't Caroline get the same benefit last year?

There was some nonsense last year where the judges admitted making a mistake on Caroline's score that cost her points and put her out of the final group. Her LP was the best of the night, but did not get scored as such.

I posted a note a few weeks ago that stated I would be happy and satisfied if Caroline got screwed less than last year ............ which she was. :biggrin:
 
One has to think if Alissa is an international favorite. She has a couple of GP medals not in the Finals, and now she has a local gold medal. Will that play in Vancouver?
I think the international judges will be prepared to judge her fairly.

In her two Grand Prix events, her PCSs were consistently in the mid-sixes. At Skate Canada she scored 52.08 in PCSs with a pretty decent 5 triple performance. This compares to Joannie who scored 60.16 (mid sevens) at the same event.

At Cup of Russia Alissa skated much worse, falling on her first two jumps. But she still got PCSs in the same range, 52.40.

For comparison, Carolina Kostner (the winner) scored in the low 7s for a total of 58.48 and Rachael, delivering 6 triples including a fully rotated 3F+3T only got 49.28 (low 6s) out of the judging panel.

So I think they like Alissa's skating just fine (but not as much as Kostner's and Rochette's). If she stands up, I think she could get top ten easily.
 
Her LP was the best of the night, but did not get scored as such.

Gotta love the subjectiveness of this sport. I was in the arena that night last year... she didn't blow me away though I do love to watch her skate...
 
There was some nonsense last year where the judges admitted making a mistake on Caroline's score that cost her points and put her out of the final group. Her LP was the best of the night, but did not get scored as such.

I posted a note a few weeks ago that stated I would be happy and satisfied if Caroline got screwed less than last year ............ which she was. :biggrin:

Is it the downgrade instead of edge call on her triple lutz? The technical panel changed her score when they realized their mistake but that decision was reversed by the refree. It still doesn't change the fact that Caroline was screwed though. It makes it worse.
 
Is it the downgrade instead of edge call on her triple lutz? The technical panel changed her score when they realized their mistake but that decision was reversed by the refree. It still doesn't change the fact that Caroline was screwed though. It makes it worse.

They tried to reverse it, but they realized that they could only add back the lowered base value, which is under control of the tech panel -- but they couldn't allow the judges to change their GOE's, which can never be revised regardless of the reason. And the GOE's needed to be re-evaluated because a downgrade requires the GOE to be negative. Hence the flip-flop of Caroline's score. Had CoP not been so stupid, and they simply let the tech panel and judges re-evaluate that jump, she would've probably gotten 3-4 points more, putting her right around 4th place in the SP, and certainly in the last group.

Hmm, I'm not sure Caroline was less screwed this year than last. She got three edge calls on her flips (which she never did before), instead of an "inadvertent downgrade." Those three edge calls certainly cost her at least 2.7, which was the overall point differential between her and Rachael. In the FS, Caroline got ! twice for the flips and once for the lutz. Besides her not having had flip edge deduction before, I also don't remember any instances of int'l tech panels giving ! to both flip and lutz in the same program. Bah!

I am curious to see whether Caroline will get ! on the flips at 4CC or JW.

It's hard to rid myself of the notion that the tech panel community within the US really dislikes Caroline's jumping technique, and they're looking for ways to penalize her for her mule-kick and other problems (maybe 2A take-off), even though these flaws are not specifically written into the CoP as deserving of penalty.
 
Last edited:
It's hard to rid myself of the notion that the tech panel community within the US really dislikes Caroline's jumping technique, and they're looking for ways to penalize her for her mule-kick and other problems (maybe 2A take-off), even though these flaws are not specifically written into the CoP as deserving of penalty.

I mean, what flaws Are specifically written in as deserving of penalty under COP. The way I understand it, the serious problems Zhang has such as speed, edging, basic skating skills in general, the mule-kick, the flutz, the no speed 2-axel, and so on, all hold her back from getting positive GOE's and high PCS's. It could turn into a situation similar to that of Alban Preaubert. He has skated well all season, landing all of his jumps in every LP, but his scores are often conservative because of his mediocre foundation in skating skills and unpleasing aesthetic in his jumps.

Hopefully Zhang can fix her problems, or she may never be able to reach the top of the podium.
 
(2) I definitely feel bad for Rachael. She's got to be thinking, "what do I have to do to win this sucker? I won last year, they gave it to Mirai, I won this year, they gave it to Alissa!"

Remember Dick Button use to say skating at Nationals is the hardest competition of the season because you skate against your friends and peers. I feel for Rachael also, but Tom & Co. need to go back and examine her skating where its right & examine it where it's wrong. We know Rachael can hit the jumps, but she has no stretch, the spins look slow & labored, and she has no speed. I don't know if she can fix all those problems by worlds but they can try.
 
All the more radical, then, when they placed Tara ahead of Michelle at the 1998 Olympics, leading some of the old school observers to speculate whether racism trumped tradition.

That's a pretty provocative turn of phrase from your keyboard, Mathman. :p

As much as I would like to believe it's not true, I'm wondering whether racism does enter into figure skating judging, consciously or not. Figure skating was primarily a "white" sport since its inception, and skaters like Michelle Kwan didn't fit the mold. Now the top female skaters are Korean and Japanese, and that seems to make some people unhappy, too. But I think being ethnically Chinese may be a particular burden, maybe because people tend to think of Korea and Japan as modern & democratic, and China as poor and backwards and somehow scary. I'm starting to wonder if this may be part of why a talented young skater like Caroline, who's a nice person besides, gets such a disproportionate amount of criticism and venom. This board is relatively civil, but even so I read comments like "anyone on the podium please, just to keep Caroline off of it"; or "I don't like so and so skater, but I'm glad she beat out Caroline". There may be a few other skaters that are generally unpopular, but that's often due to the judges systematically giving them scores higher than what fans expect. In Caroline's case, she's never been the judges' pet. She's always had to earn every single point, and should count herself lucky if points don't get deducted randomly.

I was quite shocked when I read this Wikipedia article on the long history of legalized racial discrimination against ethnic Chinese:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Exclusion_Act
The Chinese Exclusion Act, which lasted from 1882 to 1943, banned all ethnic Chinese immigrants regardless of nationality (with very few special exceptions), banned those already living in the US (many with green cards) from ever becoming US citizens, stripped US citizens of their citizenship if they married an ethnic Chinese person. And in the state of California, the law banning marriage between Chinese and Whites wasn't repealed until 1948. No significant amount of Chinese immigration (since 1882) occurred until the Immigration Act of 1965, which allowed the quota on Chinese immigrants per year (only 105, even after repeal of the Chinese Exclusion Act) to rise. The Chinese Exclusion Act was the first to restrict free immigration into the U.S., and there has been no other comparable long-term prohibition of immigration or naturalization in the US targeted at a specific ethnic group.

Even today, Chapter 7 of Title 8 (Aliens and Nationality) of the United States Code is headed, "Exclusion of Chinese." It is the only chapter out of Title 8 that specifically refers to an ethnic group or nationality.

Given its long history, it can't be because of the Communist government (which only took over in 1949, after the repeal of the Chinese Exclusion Act, interestingly), or the later cold war.

So what I want to know is: why were the Chinese particularly feared/abhorred for so long in this country? And how can we be sure that those ancient prejudices aren't still persisting in and affecting modern-day society?

(It may be that neither Michelle nor Caroline's problems have anything to do with being ethnically Chinese -- although I do remember the newspaper headlines saying "American beats Kwan for Olympic Gold".) But I would like to know the answers to those last questions anyway.)
 
Last edited:
I mean, what flaws Are specifically written in as deserving of penalty under COP.

Under-rotations, wrong take-off edge, touch-down, falls. Those are specifically penalized. Maybe a few others.

Caroline's jump technique can definitely use improvements, and judges can take off GOE to reflect her lack of speed/height, or unsteadiness of edging. But a tech panel shouldn't just arbitrarily assign those edge warnings. And I'm not going to be convinced that those !'s on the flips weren't arbitrary until I see her getting dinged by international judges.
 
Under-rotations, wrong take-off edge, touch-down, falls. Those are specifically penalized. Maybe a few others.

Also 3-turns, steps, and little hops out of jumps. I believe judges are also encouraged to judge GOE according to air position as well -- they certainly add for 'tano arms, etc. but don't always take off for poor air position (Yukari Nakano's wrap, for instance).
 
Debi Thomas... Kristi Yamaguchi...

let's not make it sound like Kwan was a first...
 
(2) I definitely feel bad for Rachael. She's got to be thinking, "what do I have to do to win this sucker? I won last year, they gave it to Mirai, I won this year, they gave it to Alissa!"

Remember Dick Button use to say skating at Nationals is the hardest competition of the season because you skate against your friends and peers. I feel for Rachael also, but Tom & Co. need to go back and examine her skating where its right & examine it where it's wrong. We know Rachael can hit the jumps, but she has no stretch, the spins look slow & labored, and she has no speed. I don't know if she can fix all those problems by worlds but they can try.

Well she did not even try the 3/3 in the SP. If she had hit that, she probably would have been in 1st going into the free. I do not know if her 3/3 in the long was downgraded. She should not be getting discouraged just yet. two silvers in 2 years in nothing to sneer at, especially at 15 years old. She is going to worlds, and should be elated.

I agree that Nationals is the hardest. Not only are you skating against the kids you grew up competing with, but also the desire is there to get to worlds. When you compete at worlds, just being there was a achivement. But to "be on the wold/olympic team" is a big dream for all these skaters and the pressure is on at nationals if they ever want to get there.
 
Well, Rachel DID make the world team. But, as she herself kindly pointed out, with that comes the pressure of the Olympic spots.
 
Well she did not even try the 3/3 in the SP. If she had hit that, she probably would have been in 1st going into the free.

No, Rachael likely would have landed on her bum if she had gone for that 3toe in the SP combo because she had no speed coming out of the first triple, so she knew she had to double the 2nd jump or risk falling. She made a smart decision and she likely would have been downgraded anyway if she did go for the 3+3 and land it, just as in the LP.

I do not know if her 3/3 in the long was downgraded.

Yes, in fact it was. :)
 
I haven't seen the LP's from Flatt or Zhang yet, but I'm happy Alissa won.

Can we talk about her spins for a minute? She can do ALL of the spin positions (layback, camel, sit, upright) with excellent speed, centering, line, and difficulty. I think she is the best spinner in the World right now. It's really unfair how spins don't get full credit with the GOE marks.

Her jumping has seen some improvement. The Lutz she did in the SP was maybe her best ever (the attempts in the LP weren't as good, unfortunately) and her Flip has come a LONG way. In both performances when she did that jump I was like "wow, did Alissa really do that"?

Hopefully she can build on this and do her best at Worlds.
 
Alissa skated a beautiful short program, and I'm happy that she finally has had her chance to bask in the spotlight... but as far as sending her to Worlds when there are only two spots for the US Ladies, I'm not so sure. Considering Caroline has atleast competed in the GPF, improved her skating, and is relatively more consistent than Alissa, I can't help but feeling that Rachael-Caroline is a better combo for Worlds than Alissa-Rachael (if the goal is securing 3 spots for the Olympics).
 
Alissa skated a beautiful short program, and I'm happy that she finally has had her chance to bask in the spotlight... but as far as sending her to Worlds when there are only two spots for the US Ladies, I'm not so sure. Considering Caroline has atleast competed in the GPF, improved her skating, and is relatively more consistent than Alissa, I can't help but feeling that Rachael-Caroline is a better combo for Worlds than Alissa-Rachael (if the goal is securing 3 spots for the Olympics).

I had this thought before Nationals, too, but on reflection, I think Alissa has had as much Grand Prix experience as Caroline and had better results this year than Caroline, if I recall correctly. If Alissa can skate relatively mistake-free--and it's a big if, I know--I think this team is better than Rachael-Caroline.
 
Alissa is absolutely grace and beauty on ice. Even thought she only landed 3 clean triples she deserved the win. Her SP was fantastic. Her posture, lines, and elegance is significantly better than the other young ladies. I like Caroline too but she is still haveing problems with UR and wrong edges. Rachael is reliable but leaves me "flat". SHe has no emotion or elegance.
 
Back
Top