Men's SP

[siberia82]

I've written in the past that I find Chan to be a very good skater but not nearly as excellent as his scores indicate. Come on, 88.90? 50.30 on TES? What, did he get +3 on every element? Plushenko at Olys, with a 4-3, levels 3 and 4 on everything, and the judges just looking where to overmark, didn't get that high a tech score. So of course it looks strange, and people will comment.

ETA: I'm not Kozuka's biggest fan, but why was he screwed on the PCS like that? He skates beautifully and that part of his score should reflect it.

Yes, Daisuke's score was quite huge. Lower than Patricks's today, though.

I don't think it would be so annoying if the scoring was uniformly inflated... But after watching the programs (except Evan's, which I haven't found yet) I feel that the scores were completely ridiculous. In no way there should be such gap between Patrick's PCS and Takahiko's/Nobunari's. Takahiko's scores look extremely ungenerous when compared to his GPF SP (high 7's dropping to migh/mid 6's)... After seeing the scores I thought that the Japanese boys completely fell apart, which wasn't the case.
I agree that Patrick should be in the lead, but to beat his his PB by more than 7 points?! His previous PB was 81.39 at TEB, and people already thought that the scoring at TEB was very generous.

Ant - my own feeling is that 4CC is a generally overscored event. But scoring seems to have gone up this season in general, with PBs for just about everyone. It seems like in Plushenko's time the judges were overscoring through the PCS, whereas now any cleanly done element will score +GOE. I thought positive GOE meant good/excellent, not just competent. So now we regularly see 80+ SPs and LPs in the 150s or even higher - but I don't see how the skating has improved, or even how the skaters/coaches have figured out how to work CoP better. Guys were regularly getting high levels as early as the 2005-6 season, but not these sort of scores (with a few exceptions).

I have no problem with Patrick Chan getting high levels; from what I have seen of his skating, the levels are indeed reflective of what he is doing. I do not think, however, that he should be getting the GOEs he likely received last night (and in earlier events). Yes, I've heard all about how he does steps leading into everything and takes no time to set up jumps. I've looked at his programs. He doesn't. That is - he does on some jumps, but certainly not universally and in some cases no more than other skaters.

As Okami noted, Patrick Chan was better scored than Dai last year; in fact, it looks like he just got the highest SP score by any skater not named Plushenko. He did this without a quad - ok, so did Dai last year, or Kozuka at GPF (which, you guys will remember, neither Kozuka nor Chan won). But Chan is not the first skater to skate a very well excuted SP, and the others were not scored like this - not even close, except for Dai. Stephane Lambiel and Jeffrey Buttle never got higher than 84, and regularly got less - yet I seem to remember some super programs from both. Johnny's Swan got him exactly 80 at Torino. I cannot believe it was 9 points worse than whatever Chan did. So why are we seeing such crazy scores that we haven't before, except during Plush's overscored final season? I have no answer to that one.

Comments like this are troubling, and the comments about the PCS. However good/great Chan is, is he truly THAT much better than everyone else? Come on, really? Better than Kozuka, better than Dai at his best, etc.?

If he lips, he should get dinged for it. And if we're going to scrutinize UR so much, then we need to look at pre-rotation, too.

I know several people are being offended by the so-called "bashing," but I haven't heard anyone say Chan isn't super -- just that he's maybe not THAT much better than every other current or past skater ever scored under COP.

It's just worrying. I don't overall like COP, but I will say that it has often seemed to lead to more actual judging of the event and the performances of the day, rather than reputation judging, so when we see results like this, it gives you a kind of "nothing's changed" feeling.

I just wanted to say that I wholeheartedly agree with all of the above comments. :thumbsup: You guys expressed exactly I wanted to say, so I don't have to add anything.

 

[Spun Silver]

I don't know. To me Patrick is in a class by himself and deserves to be set apart. But then I feel that way even when he makes mistakes (eg his FP at SC that had people so upset). He's like Johnny - just princely. I could watch him forever.

(Forgive the emotionalism - I'm in love!)

 

[skatingbc]

I don't know. To me Patrick is in a class by himself and deserves to be set apart. But then I feel that way even when he makes mistakes (eg his FP at SC that had people so upset). He's like Johnny - just princely. I could watch him forever.

(Forgive the emotionalism - I'm in love!)

Me too! Beyond the skating, he seems really mature for his age. It's hard to believe he's only 18!

 

[Spun Silver]

Hmmm, to me Patrick's interpretation is superior to Jeremy's. While I admire Jeremy very much, I feel sometimes complexity gets confused with maturity and interpretation. Jeremy's choreo is so packed with detail it is downright fussy, IMO. (I realize he packs in the points that way too, though, just like Mao in her FP this season, so from a competitive point of view it's smart.) Interpretation-wise, though, he pulls it off, but barely. Patrick seems to have very high difficulty without the fussiness. Result: he always makes it look easy, with that beautiful smoothness and purity. Now THAT's entertainment!

 

[Particle Man]

There is a slight difficulty with this system that certain things tend to score higher technically.

Slight difficulty... like the Hindenburg...

Somehow the ISU needs to find a way to balance that out with the PCS scoring that would allow the simple moves that would enhance the music's style and make the program beautiful like some of the older programs that still hold up in some senses. I do think that skaters will need to get more creative if the ISU doesn't manage to tinker with the scoring system

This is the primary problem with CoP. 6.0 was around for decades, so it was tested. Also, it did not have anywhere near the number of absolute marks or deductions, so any inherent flaws could be compensated for. Here you have a relatively new scoring system based on tons of absolute marks, and every competition, major and minor is like one giant beta test. Fine, but the ISU refuses to make obvious and desperately needed alterations to the system. I can understand not making changes in the middle of a season, but they should at LEAST apply fixes every spring, after the season is over. But they care more about how they look than about the sport.

Get rid of anonymous judging and have separate panels for tes and pcs.

Many people in the ISU and elsewhere, including the top man, are corrupt. Anonymous judging will last as long as the corruption lasts.

 

[shine]

Jeremy's choreo is so packed with detail it is downright fussy, IMO. (I realize he packs in the points that way too, though, just like Mao in her FP this season, so from a competitive point of view it's smart.) Interpretation-wise, though, he pulls it off, but barely. Patrick seems to have very high difficulty without the fussiness. Result: he always makes it look easy, with that beautiful smoothness and purity. Now THAT's entertainment!

Funny, that's the exact same thing I'd have said except I'd have swapped Jeremy and Patrick's names. A lot of the times I find Patrick's Lori Nicol programs excessively and unneccesarily difficult, but not always interpretive of the music. It's obvious he's trying to jam pack in all the most difficult turns with complex upper body movement ALL THE TIME. Whereas everything Jeremy does is for a reason with varying degrees of difficulty, and the steps and movement being very particular to the music.
And I definitely wouldn't call Mao's FP "packed". It's nothing more than stroking and three turns most of the time, though the music may make the program seem fuller than it really is. And amidst the emptiness it sudden becomes "overpacked" come the final SSLS with all the going back and forth that makes me wish it would just stop. I definitely think both Jeremy's and Patricks programs are better than Mao's, by a mile. Though I prefer Jeremy's programs to Patricks by still quite a bit.

 

[museksk8r]

Funny, that's the exact same thing I'd have said except I'd have swapped Jeremy and Patrick's names. A lot of the times I find Patrick's Lori Nicol programs excessively and unneccesarily difficult, but not always interpretive of the music. It's obvious he's trying to jam pack in all the most difficult turns with complex upper body movement ALL THE TIME. Whereas everything Jeremy does is for a reason with varying degrees of difficulty, and the steps and movement being very particular to the music.
And I definitely wouldn't call Mao's FP "packed". It's nothing more than stroking and three turns most of the time, though the music may make the program seem fuller than it really is. And amidst the emptiness it sudden becomes "overpacked" come the final SSLS with all the going back and forth that makes me wish it would just stop. I definitely think both Jeremy's and Patricks programs are better than Mao's, by a mile. Though I prefer Jeremy's programs to Patricks by still quite a bit.

I totally agree with everything you said! :agree: I'm so thankful to Jeremy and Patrick and the styles they bring to the ice. They are two whom I always root for, though I do prefer Abbott. I hope they provide us with many years of beautiful skating!

 

[museksk8r]

For what it's worth, the judges were from Australia, Canada, China, Finland, Japan, Mexico, Norway, Slovakia and USA.

Just something I'm wondering . . . has 4CC always had European judges and do the European Championships have judges from the other 4 Continents? I had always just assumed these continent specific championships had continent specific judges.

 

[Spun Silver]

And I definitely wouldn't call Mao's FP "packed". It's nothing more than stroking and three turns most of the time, though the music may make the program seem fuller than it really is. And amidst the emptiness it sudden becomes "overpacked" come the final SSLS with all the going back and forth that makes me wish it would just stop.

So, two 3A incl. 1 in combo no longer counts as packed - together with 4 or 5 other triples, 4 doubles, new spins (that one with her holding her face), and those complicated steps, all danced in time to that perpetuum-mobile waltz music? Poor Mao, she's not doing enough.

But as for what you say about Jeremy & Patrick - well, I don't see it, but I'll keep it in mind.

 

[shine]

So, two 3A incl. 1 in combo no longer counts as packed - together with 4 or 5 other triples, 4 doubles, new spins (that one with her holding her face), and those complicated steps, all danced in time to that perpetuum-mobile waltz music? Poor Mao, she's not doing enough.

But as for what you say about Jeremy & Patrick - well, I don't see it, but I'll keep it in mind.

Um, okay? I thought you were talking strictly about choreoraphy here:

Jeremy's choreo is so packed with detail it is downright fussy, IMO. (I realize he packs in the points that way too, though, just like Mao in her FP this season, so from a competitive point of view it's smart.) Interpretation-wise, though, he pulls it off, but barely. Patrick seems to have very high difficulty without the fussiness. Result: he always makes it look easy, with that beautiful smoothness and purity. Now THAT's entertainment!

I didn't know your comments had anything to do with her jump content? Usually when I talk about choreography, I don't really take into account what triples the skater lands.
And can you point out where the complicated steps in Mao's program are besides the SLSS?

 

[dancingqueen]

Patrik’s skating is much more fun to watch than any other skaters in this event , but still his TES 50 is incredibly over scored. Also his PCS, :scratch: Evan’s PCS, Abbot’s TES 40 with one fall also.:scratch: My impression.:sheesh:

 

[Spun Silver]

Um, okay? I thought you were talking strictly about choreoraphy here:

I didn't know your comments had anything to do with her jump content? Usually when I talk about choreography, I don't really take into account what triples the skater lands.

You may be right technically - but I was talking about the entire program. Again, it's not just triples but triple-axels (!), combos and doubles. Nonstop - and then the difficult spins and steps.

And can you point out where the complicated steps in Mao's program are besides the SLSS?

You're right - they're all at the end, but after everything that came before I'm breathless!

 

[Mathman]

Just something I'm wondering . . . has 4CC always had European judges and do the European Championships have judges from the other 4 Continents? I had always just assumed these continent specific championships had continent specific judges.

I think Europeans always has European judges.

For Four Continents, I think the problem is that there are not enough countries outside of Europe that have judges who are qualified at the ISU championship level.

Edited to add: By the way, I just noticed that for worlds, USA does not have a judge in men's, ladies' or dance.

Mexico has a judge in both men's and ladies.

 

[Hsuhs]

The protocols are up (have it been posted here before?):
http://web.icenetwork.com/documents/2009/02/06/60921/1/Mens_short_scoers.pdf

What lip?

 

[Medusa]

But this kind of ties in to this thread, too. I find it interesting that Brian Joubert has been criticized repeatedly for not going all out in Tokyo. Fans regularly applaud performances by skaters who choose not to do everyting they can - particularly SPs, from which the quads seem to have disappeared. The system now emphasizes good execution - perhaps too much so. Patrick Chan knows this, and plans his programs accordingly. Are skaters being too conservative now? I think in some areas, they are. I also think Patrick Chan was probably overscored yesterday. But he's doing exactly what he should: he's working with the system to make sure he's rewarded. That's smart.

That's a very good point. All these guys - Buttle, Chan, Weir, Abbott - they are all playing it safe. But somehow there is just one guy who somehow gets pounded for playing it safe. (I miss Lambiel! See, this guy had everything - the choreography, the passion, the musicality, the creativity - and he always went for the Quads and nearly always for that stupid 3A...)

Funny, that's the exact same thing I'd have said except I'd have swapped Jeremy and Patrick's names. A lot of the times I find Patrick's Lori Nicol programs excessively and unneccesarily difficult, but not always interpretive of the music. It's obvious he's trying to jam pack in all the most difficult turns with complex upper body movement ALL THE TIME. Whereas everything Jeremy does is for a reason with varying degrees of difficulty, and the steps and movement being very particular to the music.

I agree. It's hard to describe it, but I always have the feeling that Abbott completely feels the music, he is the music. His musicality seems to me more innate, more heartfelt than Chan's. It may even have something to do with age, Abbott spent years skating without real success - what did he skate for? All what I have read about him, how he spends enormous amounts of time choosing the music etc., and all I have seen him skate - makes me think that what kept Abbott going was the art. Chan looks extremely polished - like Takahashi, but I miss this musical passion, that makes Abbott (and Lambiel) so special to me. It also makes them overcook it a little at times, and sometimes they hit awkward positions during their skates - something that never happens to Chan or Takahashi. But, well, I just love this musicality, this emotion - and jeez, I just can't describe it with words. :scowl:

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I dont know Jeremy Abbot got a pretty good score for falling on the lutz and then stumbled through the last 60 seconds

Not to menton Denis Ten who was sloppy throughout. But the retort is always, there are other factors to consider in scoring. yeah :scratch:

 

[Wrlmy]

I'll be taking a short excursion to Vancouver to hunt down judge no.3 and judge no. 6.
6.00 pcs for Kozuka. Seriously? What are they smoking?

 

[skatingbc]

I'll be taking a short excursion to Vancouver to hunt down judge no.3 and judge no. 6.
6.00 pcs for Kozuka. Seriously? What are they smoking?

Hey, it is Vancouver...

 

[Medusa]

Hey, it is Vancouver...

Oh, is it like the Netherlands? You know, where stuff is legal? Would explain so much...

 

[skatingbc]

Oh, is it like the Netherlands? You know, where stuff is legal? Would explain so much...

Technically, it's not legal, but it may as well be.