Mens' LP

[sisinka]

He won TEB in FRANCE!

I'm actually really sick of hearing about the "unfair" Canadian judging. Canada has a strong team this year. They're performing well in front of their home country. Their performance should be admired, not picked apart by people who perceive unfairness because their favourites didn't perform as well as was desired.

If you have two skaters and both of them will show an element in great quality and one skater gets 0 from judges and the second skater gets +2 from judges....what would you think? Anybody pointed that Patrick gets plus points for every nice element while other skaters doesn't.

Vaugh Chipeur is great jumper without quad but his jumps are the top of his skating - he is jumper only. How he could get over 212 point?

Jeremy Ten is not very good jumper. He rotates his jumps (I believe he finishes rotation) but he is struggling with 3axel and there is no beauty in his jumps. And he got +1 or +2 from judges for almost every jump element.

And now dear skatingbc try to close your eyes and imagine that Patrick, Jeremy and Vaugh wouldn't be Canadians...try to imagine that they are skating for Kazachstan like our small cute Denis Ten....in this case Patrick wouldn't be on the podium and Chipeur's and Jeremy's points would be much more lower.
If Denis Ten would skate for Canada or USA he would get much close to top 6 and his points would be much higher. Look at him - his presentation is very good although he is 15 only. But what surprise - Denis got 5 points less in components than Chipeur (who has no presentation) and 7 points less than Jeremy.

I agree with you that Canada has some talented skater - al least Patrick, Joannie and Tessa & Scott, Jessica & Bruce. But there is no doubt that some skaters are always supported by judges disregarding the fact how they are skating in that moment - it is not a question where Championships takes place, it is happening at almost every comp.

 

[sisinka]

Wel Brian almost said it last year!

And you can notice that Evan is more popular among judges than Brian.

 

[i love to skate]

Anyway, Chan skated the best, I have no problem at all with him winning. Rochette, similar thing, I have no problem with her placement. However, they both had inflated scores. I can't comment on the Pairs and Dance because I honestly didn't care about the results. But Canadians were boosted in points, it was obvious, and again -- to me this just shows once again why CoP was a mistake. It has not brought about fairness, and for every positive thing it's introduced, it's taken 2 away. What a waste of time.

If you want to talk about "unfair judging" look at how the Chinese were scored in the pairs short program. Pang and Tong had the lead over a clean D/D when they did SINGLE side by side jumps and they also received positive GOE on their horrid side by side spins. Zhang and Zhang were only a point behind D/D for doing side by side DOUBLE jumps and also had poor spins. Seems people are singling out Canadians that were overmarked when that is not the case...

 

[mycelticblessing]

^^That's not unfair judging. That's just the judges telling D/D to go fire their choreographer.

New judging system was created to make figure skating more objective (in my opinion it was never less objective than it is now). New judging system should make jumps, spins and presentation equal. The best skater should bring on the ice perfect jumps, spins and presentation and he should be consistent.

Well, no matter what they come up with, judging will still never be objective. What I liked about the past though, was that they would show which judge from which country put up what score. I have no idea why they don't do the same thing now. Anonymity isn't going to make judges more honest.

And he is missing quad. In 1998 one quad was executed in long program, in 2002 two quads were needed in long, in 2006 at least one quad in short and one quad in free and in 2010? Only one 3axel?

Gee, I sure hope not. But then again that's what happened at US Nationals this year.

2002 was a super year for Men's skating though. Yagudin vs Plushenko vs Goebel. The three medalists must have landed six quads in the LP.

In 2010, There'll still be Joubert, Takahashi (I hope), Oda, Kozuka (I know he'll have it consistent by then to land quads. Many of the male skaters can land good quads. Just take a look at Europeans. Who they'll crown Olympic champion though, is unfortunately another matter entirely.

 

[Buttercup]

Wel Brian almost said it last year!

Heh, he said it only about Buttle's LP, not about every performance of his. But it just goes to show that if you are critical, you get bashed, because Brian took a lot of criticism over his reaction, and still does... here's how the Vancouver Sun described him just a few days ago: Brian Joubert, the petulant Frenchman who was beaten by Buttle last year and pouted his way through the post-game interviews (emphasis mine).

I thought Jeffrey was a bit overscored at Worlds - the judges were GOE-happy for that one, too - but he was a very deserving winner and both programs were superbly executed. This year neither big elements nor superb execution appear to be required for huge scores. Patrick Chan now has a better PB than Buttle, Joubert, and Lambiel. I think that's ridiculous, and I would say this if he were Italian, Chinese, or Mexican, too.

 

[Medusa]

Well, apparently Chan thinks

Does he think he can win Worlds? "All I have to do is skate two clean programs like Jeff did."

I just give him the benefit of the doubt here - that he doesn't really mean that he that much superior to everyone else that 2 clean programs will automatically give him the title. He probably just misunderstood the question.

That's what I think is so dangerous about the scoring: it makes it look as if Chan is the one and everyone else is just hunting him. But that's not really obvious. It is also highly subjective. It's not like Yagudin or Plushenko who just outjumped everyone, who were both consistent with high-risk jumps and at the same time could present great programs. If someone is watching KVDP and Chan, it will be very obvious that Chan is just the superior skater, more speed, musicality, fast turns etc. But not everyone who is watching Chan vs. Kozuka, or Chan vs. Abbott or Chan vs. Oda will automatically understand why Chan got 10 points PCS over Taka and Nobu.

 

[merrybari]

I also think it's bad for figure skating. I like seeing nice footwork and good triples, but if this is what the system is rewarding now to such an extreme, I think it's a solid step backwards for figure skating, and frankly, over time I think I'll just be bored. I don't care what Chan's nationality is; there are Canadian skaters whom I like and non-Canadian skaters whom I don't like. But 160 with no quad, no 3A combination, a popped jump (1A-2T combo... I seem to recall a certain French guy being criticized for doing that last year*) and a base value of 66.69 sends the wrong message about risk-taking and innovation.

* ETA: my mistake, the combination I was referring to was 2A-1T.

Just to clairfy: A quick check of Patrick's planned elements sheet compared to the protocol stating executed elements would indicate that you were correct with your first statement - the 1A-2T was a popped combination intended to be a 3A/2T. I checked because I was surprised it still rec'd a small +GOE.

Can someone explain to me why it wasn't downgraded to a 1A thus receiving/requiring a negative GOE? Not being nitpicky here - just trying to learn.

Thanks.

 

[Buttercup]

Just to clairfy: A quick check of Patrick's planned elements sheet compared to the protocol stating executed elements would indicate that you were correct with your first statement - the 1A-2T was a popped combination intended to be a 3A/2T. I checked because I was surprised it still rec'd a small +GOE.

Can someone explain to me why it wasn't downgraded to a 1A thus receiving/requiring a negative GOE? Not being nitpicky here - just trying to learn.

Thanks.

1. I know Patrick wasn't planning that kind of combination because, well, he's not an idiot, but it doesn't change the fact that skaters should be marked on what they actually did. For a guy to skate away with 160 for the LP, with a base value of less than 70 is rather questionnable.

2. The jump wasn't URed, it was popped. So the judges don't have to give him -GOE. Maybe they were really impressed with the 2T on the end?

 

[rosee]

^^That's not unfair judging. That's just the judges telling D/D to go fire their choreographer.

My thoughs exacly :thumbsup: : "Get a real program!"

Heh, he said it only about Buttle's LP, not about every performance of his. But it just goes to show that if you are critical, you get bashed, because Brian took a lot of criticism over his reaction, and still does...

It seems to me that most of the critics were from North Americans. In Europe it was more like: "That's what he thinks....whathever...it's his opinion Go Jeff!" and they moved on.

I thought Jeffrey was a bit overscored at Worlds - the judges were GOE-happy for that one, too - but he was a very deserving winner and both programs were superbly executed.
That's what Brian said too: I didn't skated perfectly, I lost. Jeff skated two perfects programs and won. But with score? There's something wrong with the system.

But not everyone who is watching Chan vs. Kozuka, or Chan vs. Abbott or Chan vs. Oda will automatically understand why Chan got 10 points PCS over Taka and Nobu.

Agree about that one. He's one of the best right now. He's not 10 points better than everyone else. I can't imagine what kind of pressure he has now.

 

[sisinka]

In 2010, There'll still be Joubert, Takahashi (I hope), Oda, Kozuka (I know he'll have it consistent by then to land quads. Many of the male skaters can land good quads. Just take a look at Europeans. Who they'll crown Olympic champion though, is unfortunately another matter entirely.

Yes, I am sure that many men especially from Europe will go for quad and many will land them but what it will be for?

When Chan gets incredibly high score for all his programs with or without mistakes (because nobody from judges is interesting if he makes mistakes or not) then no other skater will be able to get over him even with perfect skate.

Many skaters get nervous because they know that they need a clean skate to win - also Evan already knows it very well. But Patrick doesn't need to be nervous - he gets extremely high points for every program with/without mistakes.

 

[Mathman]

2. The jump wasn't URed, it was popped. So the judges don't have to give him -GOE. Maybe they were really impressed with the 2T on the end?

An interesting peculiarity of the judging system. It is better to pop a jump than to gut it out trying -- but not quite succeeding -- to get the revolutions.

 

[skatefancan]

Evan's Quad

Was Evan's quad marked as underrotated? Because on the replay it was severely underrotated.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I didn't see it as a 'popped' jump, but an intended single axel regardless of what his PPS showed. I realize it was not intended but it was a valid single axel, not a pop, imo.

There is no rule in the whole of figure skating that demands: 'go for the quad'. The way I read the rules, is "go for the points" the best way one can. Choosing risks is decidedly optional.

 

[Buttercup]

There is no rule in the whole of figure skating that demands: 'go for the quad'. The way I read the rules, is "go for the points" the best way one can. Choosing risks is decidedly optional.

But I'm not sure you can even argue that Chan went for the points, Joe. His base value was pretty low for an elite skater; he just got really high GOEs, and I'm not sure they were well-deserved - at least not on all the elements. I'll throw something else out there: do you guys think Chan would be getting these scores had Jeffrey Buttle not retired?

Two and a half weeks ago I watched Yannick Ponsero skate a gorgeous long program at Europeans, with a beautiful quad, two triple axels (one in combination) and no major mistakes, just a couple of iffy landings. He got 151.85. How can it be right for there to be such a disparity in the scoring between events? How can we take the scoring seriously if that's the case? I've been defending CoP on various threads and I still think it's the right idea, but there must be some adjustments and more accountability.

And you're right that risk-taking is optional these days. I can't say I'm too happy about that.

 

[demarinis5]

Maybe we should send the judges to "camp". The disparity between scores that the judges are giving seems to be a bit out of whack. I am trying to be COP savy but honestly I am totaling confused at times.

 

[siberia82]

I keep in touch with Allison Scott (a.k.a. Jeremy Abbott's mother), and she confirmed to me this morning that Jeremy was ill during the competition. In her own words, he gave 110% of the 50% he was able to give. As long as he's healthy for Worlds, I'm sure pigs will fly in L.A.

He's one of the best right now. He's not 10 points better than everyone else.

You took the words right out of my mouth. I really like Chan's skating, but I don't consider him to be the greatest skater who has ever lived (at least not yet) and I don't find that he's superior to his peers by THAT much. I think it's absolutely ludicrous that his combined score at this event was higher than Takahashi's at last year's 4CC!!!

Yes, I am sure that many men especially from Europe will go for quad and many will land them but what it will be for?

When Chan gets incredibly high score for all his programs with or without mistakes (because nobody from judges is interesting if he makes mistakes or not) then no other skater will be able to get over him even with perfect skate.

Many skaters get nervous because they know that they need a clean skate to win - also Evan already knows it very well. But Patrick doesn't need to be nervous - he gets extremely high points for every program with/without mistakes.

That's an interesting observation. As others have already pointed out, I think this is taking the sport in a very bad direction. This situation must be extremely frustrating for the other male skaters. Indeed, what does Patrick need to worry about when he can do almost no wrong in the judges' eyes?

 

[merrybari]

Was Evan's quad marked as underrotated? Because on the replay it was severely underrotated.

No it was not marked as URed.

My take is that the official replay slo/mo may have had a better angle to show when his blade actually touched down. The unofficial camera angle didn't have the same perspective so while it may have looked under-rotated ( I ? severely) what we saw may not have been when the blade actually touched.

Just a guess.

 

[merrybari]

1. I know Patrick wasn't planning that kind of combination because, well, he's not an idiot, but it doesn't change the fact that skaters should be marked on what they actually did. For a guy to skate away with 160 for the LP, with a base value of less than 70 is rather questionnable.

2. The jump wasn't URed, it was popped. So the judges don't have to give him -GOE. Maybe they were really impressed with the 2T on the end?

Thanks, Buttercup.

I agreee they should be marked for what they do, not what they planned. I also agree 160 is high for such a low base value.

Hmmm - better to "pop" than try for it and miss. Unique approach for an athlete - not the best one imo. *shrug*

 

[Buttercup]

I keep in touch with Allison Scott (a.k.a. Jeremy Abbott's mother), and she confirmed to me this morning that Jeremy was ill during the competition. In her own words, he gave 110% of the 50% he was able to give. As long as he's healthy for Worlds, I'm sure pigs will fly in L.A.

Oh, poor Jeremy! I hope he'll be in better shape in LA, and that we'll see him skate well.

You took the words right out of my mouth. I really like Chan's skating, but I don't consider him to be the greatest skater who has ever lived (at least not yet) and I don't find that he's superior to his peers by THAT much. I think it's absolutely ludicrous that his combined score at this event was higher than Takahashi's at last year's 4CC!!!

I have to defend the judges on that one. Dai's total score was much higher than Patrick's, his LP scored a good 15 points higher. Of course, he skated a much more difficult program.

That's an interesting observation. As others have already pointed out, I think this is taking the sport in a very bad direction. This situation must be extremely frustrating for the other male skaters. Indeed, what does Patrick need to worry about when he can do almost no wrong in the judges' eyes?

Judging from Medusa's quote, I think this is not good for Patrick, either. He seems over-confident.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

^^^
I haven't seen the protocols on Chan yet, so I will accept what you say on his Tech (low) GoEs (high). Btw, I disagree with the CoP on plus GoEs. I think they are well shown in the PC scores, or should be.

About Chan getting scores because Jeffrey is not around, is kind of unproveable. On the plus side, Jeffrey was more lyrical intensive while Chan is more lyrical suave. Pick you choice if you must. I like them both.

We both know the greatness as well as the ordinary of Ponsero. I think he is the best in the world, and I also think he may be the worst. As for comparing Chan with Ponsero, both at their bests, I would say, it's in the mind of the beholder.

As to the judges in both comps, it is just that. Two different comps, two different sets of judges, all with their own personal tastes, will give different scores for eah similar PPS. I do not believe in Personal Bests for that reason.

Imo, risk taking is just part of strategy. I am sure the boys with practice quads will use them in Worlds if they are in the proper skating order.