Chock Full of Gold

[npa]

If you're going to worry about Meryl's leg length, frankly we should save the money and skip the skating entirely. We should just name Miss Universe (who is always tall and leggy) the ice dance world champion.

You every time wright the same things. We have in ice dance a lot off small girls with good body type and lines and who skated really well - Khohlova, Chock, Isa (compare to Oly), Rubleva, Capelinni..... They are not Miss Universe, but have greate body types.
And Samuelson not Miss Universe, but have good balettick preparation. And Hubbel....
I agree - Zuerlein is weakest patner for Shpilband group (maby in another group he will be best - i dont know), but Chock is strongest girl in his group (since Silvershtein - IMHO) and she is only 16th. Will be interesting what she will show for us in future

 

[dorispulaski]

And indeed I will continue to say it every time that criticism is brought out .Fine, complain about the girl's extension or toe point. That is a valid thing to complain about. Length of leg or physical proportions?

stumpy

Not so much.

Just insulting someone's physical features is stupid. And mean, too.

In fact, Jamie Silverstein had a very similar body type to Meryl Davis, and in addition, while we are criticizing physical appearances, she had a large mouth and no chin. None of that takes away from the brilliance of the way she and Justin were able to move in and out of holds. However, you will notice that in addition to having relatively short legs, she also did not have perfect toe point and extension.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkLcfe6Wkvw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-bMDNpwAMI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wz5CvkGfqUo

Yes, Emily Samuelson has significantly better leg extension and toepoint than Meryl Davis (and also than most anyone else, including Shae Lynn Bourne in the above first clip, not to mention Jamie Silverstein). However, she and her partner do not have the speed and depth of edge that Meryl and Charlie do. And they are really weak in the dance spins. Each team has something to work on, and something that they are exceptional for.

Yes Madison Chock is a very interesting dancer, and it will be interesting to see how she develops. However, she could use a stronger partner. I hope Greg will work hard to bring himself up to her level. These days, that is a particular problem with the spins and lifts, given there are so many in the required, graded technical elements. I was not particularly impressed with C&Z's lifts (as senior lifts. They were more than adequate for junior lifts.).

Or Madison could get a different partner. She is very young, and I expect to see her develop nicely. Zuerlein is only a year younger than Charlie White, and has a long, long way to go to reach Charlie's level.

 

[npa]

Thank you for the video!
In fact, Jamie Silverstein had a very similar body type to Meryl Davis, and in addition, while we are criticizing physical appearances, she had a large mouth and no chin - for me Jamie had different body type in 15th (on this video). And i didnt talk about Meryl face - i talk only about her lines and body lines, wich is very important in ice dance. Jamie was born for ice dance - she was reall diva on ice
Emily Samuelson has significantly better leg extension and toepoint than Meryl Davis (and also than most anyone else, including Shae Lynn Bourne in the above first clip, not to mention Jamie Silverstein). However, she and her partner do not have the speed and depth of edge that Meryl and Charlie do.
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I think S/B have a greate speed and power (like Hubbels). Thats was there difference from another junior teams. Strange, before you post, that worst part of S/B skating is there balletick preparation, now you talk they didnt have speed - what we will read next time? Something about Emily face?
I was not particularly impressed with C&Z's lifts - reallys strange, because there first lift - D/W lift, one lift - Kh/N - you like D/W liftes i thought
I must admit, i didnt say, C/Z is better D/W - no. I said - Chock with Wiht could be greatest team now.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Wow, poor Greg, how he is being beaten down for appearing like the 'boy next door' instead of the 'leader of the pack'.

If I am not mistaken, they are Juniors and they won the Worlds Junior Championhip despite the outcries before the competition that they had no rapport. Maybe Greg should take a course in how a Cossak would dance. Apparantly, some fans demand homogenized skating, and they do not see improvements in future. No?

btw, how long have they been together? How long the Shibutani's?

 

[npa]

btw, how long have they been together? How long the Shibutani's?

I think Shibutani have been together from Mai birth
I think, that problem with Greg is because he is 1 year younger, than Wiht and Moir, but skate like this both was skating maybe in 16-17. But.... Wiht and Moir are one of the best patners in the World. Novitsky not so good, but win ECh - i dont think Greg will have problems in future, because he have greate patner, like Novitsky have graete pathner too.

 

[dorispulaski]

I think S/B have a greate speed and power (like Hubbels). Thats was there difference from another junior teams.

Actually not. Hubbells have great speed and power. S&B, not as much as H&H. or D&W.

Strange, before you post, that worst part of S/B skating is there balletick preparation, now you talk they didnt have speed - what we will read next time?

I never said there was anything wrong with balletic preparation. What I said was that not all dance styles should have excessive ballet pointy toe stuff in them-which is partially a matter of my taste, but is partially a matter of the character of the dance, which is a graded item. (admittedly, not often graded, but some day the judges may discover the PCS rules) S&B would put pointy toes in every step in a polka or in a hoedown. If they're doing Swan Lake, the ballet stuff is lovely and in the character of the dance. If they're doing Let Yourself Go, it's inappropriate and not in the character of the dance.

QUOTE=npa;378653]Something about Emily face?[/QUOTE]

Nope. Emily always looks lovely.

I was not particularly impressed with C&Z's lifts - reallys strange, because there first lift - D/W lift, one lift - Kh/N - you like D/W liftes i thought
I must admit, i didnt say, C/Z is better D/W - no. I said - Chock with Wiht could be greatest team now.

I'm sorry, I can't figure out entirely what you mean by this sentence. However, here's what I think:
1. K&N's lifts are better than D&W's. 2. D&W's lifts are better than C&Z's.
I don't see those two statements as contradictory. (I am not talking about the choreo of the lift, but the execution of the lift.)

BTW, I think Chock & White could be an awesome team.

These days, an awesome lady is not all it takes to have a winning partnership. That indeed was the way it was when Fusar-Poli and Margaglio won a world championship, but the current version of the rules forces the guy to be able to skate well for a change.

However, there is nothing that says Greg Zuerlein will not improve. However, npa, I agree that the fact that he is only one year younger than White & Moir means he's already behind the curve. He has some serious work to do. Rather than C&Z passing D&W, I expect them to have trouble getting past S&B, and they will have to improve steadily to keep ahead of Shibutanis.

 

[npa]

I'm sorry, I can't figure out entirely what you mean by this sentence. However,
1. K&N's lifts are better than D&W's. 2. D&W's lifts are better than C&Z's.
I don't see those two statements as contradictory. (I am not talking about the choreo of the lift, but the execution of the lift.

BTW, I think Chock & White could be an awesome team.

Sorry, but C/Z and D/W have the same lifts. And only one - from Kh/N FD.
About speed and power- well, i saw D/W, maybe i will see S/B in future (life) - ater this i could agree or disagree.
I saw greate skating skills from D/W (and speed) only in exibition number and when they skate only part of it. Yes, they looked much faster, than Kh/N

 

[rosee]

Doris told you that she's talking about the execution of the lifts
They have the K&N lift but nobody does the K&N lift better than Jana herself!

I do not find Greg Zuerlin to be that weak (he has IMO nice twizzles, edges, lines...). His "problem" is that he does not stand out...or maybe she stand out too much. It can be a compliment because some people like to see the woman in focus and the man only to present her.
I personnally do not worry for their TES but really their artistic approach if you see what I mean.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

For what it is worth, I have seen quite a bit of improvement in Bates of S&B. He started out as a scrawny kid following her around and now he is beginning to take command. I think it's the case of the medals they won, and the desire for gold. Boys to Men do happen even in Ice Dance.

 

[dorispulaski]

Sorry, but C/Z and D/W have the same lifts. And only one - from Kh/N FD.
About speed and power- well, i saw D/W, maybe i will see S/B in future (life) - ater this i could agree or disagree.
I saw greate skating skills from D/W (and speed) only in exibition number and when they skate only part of it. Yes, they looked much faster, than Kh/N

K&N's lifts
1. The most distinctive of their lifts starts with her doing a Biellmann and him picking her up with one arm, swinging her around like a pocketbook. They do it in both the OD & the FD. It's their signature lift and no one does it, probably because no one else can do it. Neither D&W nor C&Z do this lift.

2. They do a variety of lifts that start with Sergei in a squat spread eagle and Jana jumps up with her feet on his thighs.. Sometimes she jumps up with her back to his front as in their gypsy OD, where she does gypsy shoulder wiggles while standing on his knee. Sometimes she stands on one of his thighs, holding her leg up in a candle position. C&Z have tried a simplified version of this lift, not, obviously as well as K&N. D&W do not use this lift.

3. They do a variety of handstand and shoulderstand lifts (Jana being the one in the handstand or shoulderstand. These lifts sometimes end up with one or both of Jan'as legs clasp clasped around Sergei's neck and going into rotations. D&W do not do this lift, either anything with Meryl's legs around Charlie's neck, or with Meryl in a handstand or shoulder stand. C&Z do the leg around the neck rotational thing.

4. They do a complicated version of the girl lies across the guys knee in the FD (their simplest lift). Neither C&Z nor D&W do one of these. This one starts with standing on his thighs before Jana ends up on his knees.

5. The first lift in K&N's FD is a fancy version of Jana ending up in a unassisted 'spiral' leg up position. This is similar to DomShabs really pretty lift in their FD.

So I do not see D&W doing anything that looks like K&N's lifts.

D&W's lifts (this year only)
1. The swoop lift-K&N nor C&Z do this one. It's the first lift in the FD.
2. A curve lift with Charlie in a spiral and Meryl hanging off his back. Neither K&N and C&Z do this one.
3. A fast rotational lift with Meryl's leg on Charlie's shoulder at the end of the FD. This is a pretty generic rotational level 4 lift and a lot of people do it (although neither K&N nor C&Z do). D&W started out with a much more interesting lift at the end of the FD, but it got scored as level1, so they went to the generic version
4. A lift that starts with Meryl going around Charlies back, ending up with Meryl doing running in place in the air steps (OD) and a reversing lift that goes over the back both ways in the FD. C&Z do 2 lifts that start over the back like that, but they are not exactly the same as D&W's lifts (no running steps, and no reverse version).
5. C&Z do that drag into a spiral off the boot edge move that D&W do in their FD. C&Z demonstrate that that move is not as easy as you might think, since it is distinctly worse than D&W's version.

So: K&N don't do any of D&W's lifts. D&W don't do any of K&N's lifts. However, C&Z do some simplified versions of both D&W's and K&N's lifts. And they don't do them as well as the people they are copying. Which is not surprising. They're a junior team and one does not expect them to have an individual style yet.
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Just to be quite clear, at this point in time, I think K&N are better than D&W overall. Which makes the point that a guy of 26 with weaker skating skills (Novitski) can make a heck of an improvement in one year, because this year (Novitski is now 27) K&N's step sequences are a lot better than they were.

If Zuerlein works on it, he has plenty of time to improve.

 

[Tammi]

In dance, you typically find that the ages of the partners are much closer (as opposed to pairs). Because many boys develop later, I think it's more on the common side to find a very mature 16 year old girl with a 19 year old boy who still may be in that awkward stage. I'm not saying that Greg is awkward and I think he has the potential to continue developing and grow stronger. For me, I definitely saw his skating grow this past season. To be honest, I was surprised to read that Greg will be 21 this year. All aspects of his physical appearance seem to indicate that he would be younger. If they stay with it, they can put themselves in a very good position at Senior over the next 2 years.

btw, how long have they been together? How long the Shibutani's?

Madison & Greg started skating with each other at the Novice level in 2006. They finished 5th in Novice at the 2007 US Nationals. Both have had previous partners.

Maia and Alex started at the Juvenile level together in 2004. They were the Juvenile silver medalists at the 2005 US Junior Nationals. They both were single skaters prior to dance and have had no other partners.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Madison & Greg started skating with each other at the Novice level in 2006. They finished 5th in Novice at the 2007 US Nationals. Both have had previous partners.

Maia and Alex started at the Juvenile level together in 2004. They were the Juvenile silver medalists at the 2005 US Junior Nationals. They both were single skaters prior to dance and have had no other partners.

Thank you Tammi for the information..

and just to add to the comments by Doris. There is nothing that says Greg can not improve.

 

[AwesomeIce]

If you're going to worry about Meryl's leg length, frankly we should save the money and skip the skating entirely. We should just name Miss Universe (who is always tall and leggy) the ice dance world champion.

The problem is not so much that Meryl has super-short legs, but the fact that she refuses to fully extend her legs and point her toes. I'm not saying that extending would make her look as leggy as, say, Tanith, but it would make everything look neater and more polished and, well, less stumpy.

 

[~tapdancer]

The problem is not so much that Meryl has super-short legs, but the fact that she refuses to fully extend her legs and point her toes. I'm not saying that extending would make her look as leggy as, say, Tanith, but it would make everything look neater and more polished and, well, less stumpy.

She has been extending better and pointing her toes. It may not be enough to satisfy you (I doubt she will ever be good enough to satisfy you), but she has been working on it. There's always room for improvement but what Davis and White are doing this year sure ain't bad!!

As Doris has so brilliantly been trying to explain to some folks on here, ice dance has changed and CoP has a lot to do with that. I think that the shorter-legged girls are having a better time of it than the long-legged storks. I love what CoP has done for ice dance, it's much more competitive and the dances are interesting and inventive.