I do hope you are wrong, it would be too horrible!
Plushenko will honour us with his presence in 2010!
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I do hope you are wrong, it would be too horrible!
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
I hope I am wrong too. I have nothing against the man who, arguably, was the greatest jumper in figure skating.
If he hasn't changed his style of mugging the audience after each jump and have little girls swoon, then ok, but it does not interest me as to any kind of aritstry. Just jumps, my dear. C'est tout. He will do well on all accounts if the jumps are still his forte.
Check out the Gala of Lambiel's performance from the Team Trophy. Senorita: Hay una gran diferencia entre el y Plushy. Different style. Pick your choice.
If he hasn't changed his style of mugging the audience after each jump and have little girls swoon, then ok, but it does not interest me as to any kind of aritstry. Just jumps, my dear. C'est tout. He will do well on all accounts if the jumps are still his forte.
Check out the Gala of Lambiel's performance from the Team Trophy. Senorita: Hay una gran diferencia entre el y Plushy. Different style. Pick your choice.
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2008
joe i m pretty sure i have watched all plushy competitions even the ones i had missed from web, and I dont know how this mugging the audience after each jump comes as result. I have seen him reacting after some 4-3-3 or some fist-ing at the end of programs and stuff, but your phrase brings another skater in my mind.
There was a big difference between stephan and plushy since ever, but both drag the audience in..par example same audience..different style, yes
just jumps, no
There was a big difference between stephan and plushy since ever, but both drag the audience in..par example same audience..different style, yes
just jumps, noExactly! I quite agree with you!
Jumps are very important part of skating but they are not the whole skating, at least they should not be! And he did get 2 Oly medals handed on a silver platter for his jumps, much more than enough , IMO!He did only one 4-3-3 actually, to be exact!
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2008
He did only one 4-3-3 actually, to be exact!
Three times came to my mind just as I read your sentence, 2002-03 season, Cup of Russia, Worlds Q , Grand Prix Final but if you like to be exact i can search for the rest.
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2008
I'm not a Plushenko fan, as seniorita can attest, but IMO, Plushy earned both his medals, and didn't get anything handed to him on a silver platter. Especially in 2006 - sure, the programs were not as interesting as those he did a few years earlier, but he landed the jumps (which is more than can be said for basically everyone else) and he had some high level spins and footwork. 2002 was under a different system, and I'll allow he was probably held up in the SP, but his LP was very good and I don't think it can be argued that he should have been off the podium.
I've read the "it's not figure jumping" line more times than I'd care to count - not in your post, which is good
- and although I'm all for increasing the importance of other aspects of skating (which CoP is trying to do, at least in theory), jumps are important. I don't want to see the other elements emphasized to the point that jump content regresses. Looking at some recent winners of major events, that is exactly what's happening. Nobody was more consistent with landing the hardest jumps than Plushenko, and at his best he did that while skating very demanding programs. BTW, I hope he doesn't come back, because I don't really care for his style of skating. But that doesn't take away from what he's accomplished.
If Plushenko had been judged fairly in the SP at the 2002 Olys, there`d have been no chance for him to perform in the LP among the top six guys and in such a case I do doubt he`d have jumped in his LP so consistently as he did. At the 2006 Games: If the judges had not overrated him so ridiculously in the SP (he performed at the very beginning of the competition and therefore they shouldn`t have given to anyone such huge marks), I do doubt that: 1) the other top guys`d have started falling down as they actually did,2) he himself could have stayed clean in his LP! That is why I said that, IMO, he got those medals handed on a silver platter!
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- Feb 5, 2004
Seniorita are you reading this? You know i'm not a Plushy defender, however, I can't see any argument for pluschenko being out of the top six. I can't remember Abt's short programme exactly but remember that there was an error, perhaps Pluschenko should have placed below Abt, but behind Li? No way. Speculating on how he might have jumped had he not been in the final group is crystal ball gaznig and has nothing to do with being handed anything on a silver plate at all.
At the 2006 Games: If the judges had not overrated him so ridiculously in the SP (he performed at the very beginning of the competition and therefore they shouldn`t have given to anyone such huge marks), I do doubt that: 1) the other top guys`d have started falling down as they actually did,2) he himself could have stayed clean in his LP! That is why I said that, IMO, he got those medals handed on the silver platter!
The part in bold is simply not true. Under 6.0 the judges used to have to leave themselves room for skaters still to come because of the comparative scoring system in place (even if 6.0 had been used, there wasn't a single other skater who would perform a more difficult SP than Plushcenko anyway so they could easily have handed out top marks to him skating early under 6.0), COP is an absolute scoring system where you mark what you see, judges don't need to leave themselves any room.
I do think the judges wanted to give him the Gold in 2006, however, since no other skater stepped up to the plate it wasn't particualrly controversial.
Ant
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- Jun 3, 2008
At the 2006 Games: If the judges had not overrated him so ridiculously in the SP (he performed at the very beginning of the competition and therefore they shouldn`t have given to anyone such huge marks), I do doubt that: 1) the other top guys`d have started falling down as they actually did,2) he himself could have stayed clean in his LP! That is why I said that, IMO, he got those medals handed on a silver platter!
2006 it was Cop, it didnt matter when you skated, it is mathematics.
Aaa, soooooo it was plush marks that forced everybody else to fall down
, I think he should be also accused for the Global Warm effect.Euros was three weeks before and he skated better than anyone being rather ill and gasping for air at the end. And he skated last. In Olympics even with less marks in sp he could have stayed clean or enough clean in his Lp because since when plush could not deliver his Lp due to his sp or his co-athletes results?As a matter of fact since when he could not deliver in general?
and please watch your tapes again before the caramel about sp in 2002, yes he was held up but watch his deductions and the rest of men's sp, he should be in top 6 no matter.
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2008
Plushy's Baby Sex Bomb is responsible for many ills, but not for global warming.Aaa, soooooo it was plush marks that forced everybody else to fall down
I'm trying to limit my number of posts per day but I just had to say that this struck me as a strange argument too. But then, Brian Joubert definitely attributed his lousy performance at Torino to Plushy's high marks, and noted that Plushenko shouldn't have won without a quad, and Patrick Chan said Plushy's PCS should have been lower than his, at least on transitions... no, I'm getting my competitions mixed up here
. What is it that Plushenko failed to do at Torino (other than pay attention to his music)? Are the hardest jumps (clean), high-level spins and difficult step sequences no longer sufficient? I actually agree Plushenko was overmarked a bit in the SP, and Johnny Weir, who was second at that point, was undermarked. But IIRC, most of the guys ran into trouble in the LP, not the SP - and by then they were so far behind Plushenko, I fail to see how they could have been impacted by anything he'd done. * Fun protocol fact: Plush did not have the highest base value in the LP (looks like he was second) but his TES was highest.
Re 2002, Abt, who was 5th to Plushenko's 4th in the SP, did not skate as well as he could have. Though he didn't fall, only his 4-3 was cleanly landed. I believe Eldredge was 6th in the SP, can't recall what he did.
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- Joined
- Jun 3, 2008
I m reading this but i dont know how to say to someone that watches something green and says it is red that this is actually green, how many arguments I can have?
But I knew you could fill me in!The only person that could have been 4th is Abt, he did land his combo but he didnt sell his program, his circular was two footed, to be honest I know he could have been 4th as well as he was 5th and I would be fine with it, but Abt was like the bridesmaid of russians so... Li had done 2axel as the 3rd element, Stoiko was far behind in marks, it was not like he was close, eldrege was 9th, plush was correct in technical and probably hold up in presentation,he tried to sell it well so maybe judges like M.Jackson's music, I run out of reasons...and it is like history now
When i saw Tosca i didnt even remember that footwork was faster than music until someone told me and I noticed, the music was very powerful and his performance was dramatic and over the top, i liked choreo and his triple axel was just amazing landed, his costume was maybe the best he ever had, I think i had a very big grin at the end!
What Plush failed to do in Torino (in Lp for me) is skate to please everyone, he has said numerous times he chose to skate to secure his medal, fair enough.
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
No Chgiang Li was 6th, I forget who was 7th, Weiss was 8th and Eldredge 9th who IRRC fell on a quad toe attempt but landed everything else....hmmm interesting!
Ant
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- Mar 25, 2008
Oh, right - Todd was 6th overall, thus my mistake. I checked on Wikipedia - Elvis Stojko was 7th in the SP.
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- Jun 3, 2008
I`m sorry if my other strange argument amazes you again but still, I have to say that I`ve always thought that paying attention to the music is very important for a figure skater/dancer, but in case of Plushenko, I so understand, it doesn`t work... Talking of spins/footwork: "high-level spins"-are you sure? do you remember his sit spin for instance? "difficult step sequences"-even if it is so, whether you could sincerely qualify his footwork as being at least pleasant not to say beautiful? do you REALLY think they deserve so mad PCS he got for them at the Games? I personally think they don`t and didn`t!
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- Joined
- Jun 3, 2008
high level in spins doesnt have to do with his sit spin, if it was not low enough he should have gotten -Goe.
high level in footwork doesnt mean it needs to be pleasant. And yes it was beautiful for some. ( I remember english eurosport comment for example)
pcs he got doesnt mean he got a medal on a silver plate.
if joumbert gets 86 for safri duo then yes, 90 was fine for tosca.
high level in footwork doesnt mean it needs to be pleasant. And yes it was beautiful for some. ( I remember english eurosport comment for example)
pcs he got doesnt mean he got a medal on a silver plate.
if joumbert gets 86 for safri duo then yes, 90 was fine for tosca.
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2008
Here are the SP and LP protocols from Torino.
As seniorita points out, spin and step sequence levels are not determined by aesthetic appeal. I would love to have them reworked a bit. But in the system Plushenko was competing under, he was the rightful winner of the 2006 Olympic gold. Under 6.0, he would have also been the rightful winner. I'm not a fan, I didn't enjoy his programs, but there is no doubt in my mind that he skated better than the other men competing in Torino.
The argument that his success and super-high marks at the 2006 Olympics made other skaters skater badly is the one I found strange, not the suggestion that his performances were lacking in certain areas. Nobody forced Jeffrey Buttle to do his quad fall, Evan Lysacek did not skate badly in the SP because Plushy went over 90 etc. I agree with you that the scores Plushenko received were excessive, but the placement was not. He earned his gold - unlike the other two medalists, who were there almost by default because everyone was so awful.
As seniorita points out, spin and step sequence levels are not determined by aesthetic appeal. I would love to have them reworked a bit. But in the system Plushenko was competing under, he was the rightful winner of the 2006 Olympic gold. Under 6.0, he would have also been the rightful winner. I'm not a fan, I didn't enjoy his programs, but there is no doubt in my mind that he skated better than the other men competing in Torino.
The argument that his success and super-high marks at the 2006 Olympics made other skaters skater badly is the one I found strange, not the suggestion that his performances were lacking in certain areas. Nobody forced Jeffrey Buttle to do his quad fall, Evan Lysacek did not skate badly in the SP because Plushy went over 90 etc. I agree with you that the scores Plushenko received were excessive, but the placement was not. He earned his gold - unlike the other two medalists, who were there almost by default because everyone was so awful.
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
hmmm, please no
Don't worry seniorita, as much as i'm not a fan of Pluschenko, i'm REALLY not a fan of Eldredge!Ant
