Sasha. Comeback. Believe it.
- Thread starter Particle Man
- Start date
I think that not relying exclusively on Nationals results is more a means to allow naming a skater to the team who did not compete (or finish the competition) at Nationals at all for some reason but would have been a favorite and will be recovered from whatever the problem was in time for Olympics or Worlds.
I don't think they ever intend to send the 3rd or 4th place finisher instead of the 1st or 2nd place finisher. Age and (for Olympics) citizenship restrictions aside.
I don't think they ever intend to send the 3rd or 4th place finisher instead of the 1st or 2nd place finisher. Age and (for Olympics) citizenship restrictions aside.
It's only fair though if Nationals is judged fairly. If Caroline Zhang cannot beat Alissa in a free skate at Nationals, when Zhang lands six triples and Alissa three triples, and Flatt only gets to beat Alissa's free by a point/less than. Then, what prayer does Zhang and Flatt have of being putt ahead Sasha or Michelle Kwan, Even if both girls skate well and those two don't.
I'm fine with using Nationals IF I could be convinced that Nationals would be judged well fairly.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
I agree with all of this except the "secretly" part. I don't think it is a secret that they will send the Nationals winners to the Olympics.
I think the right way to look at it is this. The rule says that 6 competitions will be taken into account, in "decreasing order of importance." Number one is U.S. Nationals. That is way, way, way up there on top, miles ahead of anything else.
Then way down at the bottom are competitions 2-6.
This gives USFS a little bit of wiggle room in case something truly bizarre happens, and also technically protects them from falling under the USOC regulations for official "Olympic qualifying events."
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2007
Actually, I am all for the new rules. The USFSA is essentially saying that ISU judges have some say in who goes to the Olympics. And since our American judges and ISU judges don't always agree, I think this is a great idea.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
hmmmm. The old American penchant for money and look where it got us in the financial markets.
more important - The OIC demands that their member countries hold a special Olympic Trials and for the Summer Olys that is adhered to. And further many are the favorite athletes who fail to qualify due to one of those exceptionally bad days is no longer qualified. For whatever reason the Winter Oly members choose to ignore the olympic trials.
.
If they didn't, there would be no connection between the any Nats and GPs.
Now I would like to know:
1.What official roll does the USFS play in the Oly game? and is the OIC ok with it?
2.What official roll does the ISU play in the Oly game? and is the OIC ok with that?
3. When all is complied with, how does the OIC review the entrants? (Apparently the OIC welcomes back former olympians.)
Once we know these moves, we will cut this thread easily.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
^ I am no expert about all this, but my understanding of the process is something like this.
I think the selection process is different for different sports.
The IOC sanctions international organizations (like the ISU) to be in charge of each sport. That organization in turn approves national federations to select the team for each county in each sport, subject to the rubber stamp by the national Olympics committees like the USOC.
Some sports, like track and field and swimming, have an official "Oympic Trials competition." Win or go home.
Others sports, like gymnastics, have a more complicated procedure. First there is U.S. Nationals. On the basis of that competition (and perhaps others) gymnasts are invited to the Olympic trials. After they perform, the gymnasts that do the best, for the most part, make the Olympic team.
But not necessarily. The powers that be -- namely Bela and Marta Karolyi -- decide who they want on the team, taking everything into account, including whether they want to go with mostly all-around gymnasts or with specialists on particular apparatuses.
Gymnastics has been criticised for this procedure (by gymnasts who didn't make the team, among others) for being arbitrary and capricious and for just coming down to who the Karolyis like or don't like.
Again, it is up to the sanctioned body for the individual sport.
Curling
, for instance, had its official Olympic qualifying tournament last February. The winners of the tournament are automatically the U.S. representatives in that sport at Vancouver.
.
That is correct. There is no connection between the U.S. National Figure Skating Championships and the Grand Prix.
As I understand it, the USFS is the official body designated by the ISU to "nominate" the U.S. figure skating team to the USOC. I cannot imagine any circumstance where the USOC would not accept the nominations of the USFSA.
The IOC, having authorized the ISU as the official governing body for figure skating, is pretty much OK with anything the ISU does. By the way, Ottavio Cinquanta is a highly placed member of the IOC, with aspirations of running for President.
I am not sure exactly what the IOC rules are, as far as age limits, returning professionals, citizenship, drug abusers, etc., are. But the ISU makes sure that their rules are not in conflict with IOC rules. If anything, the ISU rules will be more restrictive.
I don't think it ever happens that the official governing body for a sport is overruled by the IOC in terms of athlete eligibility. In 2008 when there was a big uproar about Chinese gymnasts being too young, they were too young by the rules of the International Gymnastic Association (or whatever it is called), not by IOC rules. When complaints were raised, the IOC asked the Gymnasyics Association to look into it, they did not take any action themselves.
(Something like that.
)
I think the selection process is different for different sports.
The IOC sanctions international organizations (like the ISU) to be in charge of each sport. That organization in turn approves national federations to select the team for each county in each sport, subject to the rubber stamp by the national Olympics committees like the USOC.
Some sports, like track and field and swimming, have an official "Oympic Trials competition." Win or go home.
Others sports, like gymnastics, have a more complicated procedure. First there is U.S. Nationals. On the basis of that competition (and perhaps others) gymnasts are invited to the Olympic trials. After they perform, the gymnasts that do the best, for the most part, make the Olympic team.
But not necessarily. The powers that be -- namely Bela and Marta Karolyi -- decide who they want on the team, taking everything into account, including whether they want to go with mostly all-around gymnasts or with specialists on particular apparatuses.
Gymnastics has been criticised for this procedure (by gymnasts who didn't make the team, among others) for being arbitrary and capricious and for just coming down to who the Karolyis like or don't like.
Again, it is up to the sanctioned body for the individual sport.
Curling
, for instance, had its official Olympic qualifying tournament last February. The winners of the tournament are automatically the U.S. representatives in that sport at Vancouver..
That is correct. There is no connection between the U.S. National Figure Skating Championships and the Grand Prix.
As I understand it, the USFS is the official body designated by the ISU to "nominate" the U.S. figure skating team to the USOC. I cannot imagine any circumstance where the USOC would not accept the nominations of the USFSA.
The IOC, having authorized the ISU as the official governing body for figure skating, is pretty much OK with anything the ISU does. By the way, Ottavio Cinquanta is a highly placed member of the IOC, with aspirations of running for President.
I am not sure exactly what the IOC rules are, as far as age limits, returning professionals, citizenship, drug abusers, etc., are. But the ISU makes sure that their rules are not in conflict with IOC rules. If anything, the ISU rules will be more restrictive.
I don't think it ever happens that the official governing body for a sport is overruled by the IOC in terms of athlete eligibility. In 2008 when there was a big uproar about Chinese gymnasts being too young, they were too young by the rules of the International Gymnastic Association (or whatever it is called), not by IOC rules. When complaints were raised, the IOC asked the Gymnasyics Association to look into it, they did not take any action themselves.
(Something like that.
)
Last edited:
Cohen participated in the Olympic shoot that's been taking place this week:
http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/S...cat=Event&rt=CA: NBC / USOC Promotional Shoot
Rachel Flatt, Mirai Nagasu, Caroline Zhang, Ashley Wagner and Alyssa also took pics.
http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/S...cat=Event&rt=CA: NBC / USOC Promotional Shoot
Rachel Flatt, Mirai Nagasu, Caroline Zhang, Ashley Wagner and Alyssa also took pics.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
^ 
She may not have her triple Lutz back yet, but she is photogenic as ever.
Here's Johnny Weir.
http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/S...l&assetType=image&p=johnny weir&src=standard#
She may not have her triple Lutz back yet, but she is photogenic as ever. Here's Johnny Weir.
http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/S...l&assetType=image&p=johnny weir&src=standard#
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
The fur hat is amazing. It looks like Johnny has a big fluffy cat on his head with its tail wrapped around his neck.
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2005
If you ask me; the judging for the ladies event at Nationals these past two years have been truly bizarre. I starting to think the USFA will come out better if they don't take nationals in account at all when it come to the ladies. Or gets some official ISU judges for nationals.
Math. You don't have the whole US Gymnastics idea right. From what I understand. It's based on
US Nationals
US Olympic trials -then the top two girls in the All Around are given spots as long as they show readiness.
Everyone else advances to Selection Camp. Some girls get byes straight to the camp, and Marta chooses the team from there. The thing is that given the nature of the team event now, with 3 up 3 count. It's absolutely necessary to fill the event with specialists.
The problem? Though is the fact that all of these competitions wear and tear on the girls and many were beaten up by the time the Olympics rolled around. Another problem could have been the National scoring. This didn't really affect the team (this time!) BUT, it may have severely hurt Shawn Johnson. Who got some severe deductions at the Olympics that she wasn't getting at Nationals....
The Chinese and the Romanians in 2004 had a better process. They had nationals and internal meets, but they also sent their gymnasts to international competitions. And they saw how their gymnasts reacted to the competitions and the scores they were getting. And they filled up their team based on that...
The problem with US Nationals is favorites are totally being used. I refuse to think that Alissa would have defeated Rachael and likely Caroline too if US Nationals was judged by international judges. I really don't see that one happening. It does no good when favorites are played like that..
In that sense using events like Grand Prix etc can be a smart thing.... The key though was to judge based on recent international competitions. IF the Japanese in 2006 had done this, Nakano would have made the Olympic team over Ando.
But it should be embarrassing and suggests I think the mockery of the scoring that international judges reacted so differently to programs from Alissa/Zhang/Flatt with similar technical content.
US Nationals
US Olympic trials -then the top two girls in the All Around are given spots as long as they show readiness.
Everyone else advances to Selection Camp. Some girls get byes straight to the camp, and Marta chooses the team from there. The thing is that given the nature of the team event now, with 3 up 3 count. It's absolutely necessary to fill the event with specialists.
The problem? Though is the fact that all of these competitions wear and tear on the girls and many were beaten up by the time the Olympics rolled around. Another problem could have been the National scoring. This didn't really affect the team (this time!) BUT, it may have severely hurt Shawn Johnson. Who got some severe deductions at the Olympics that she wasn't getting at Nationals....
The Chinese and the Romanians in 2004 had a better process. They had nationals and internal meets, but they also sent their gymnasts to international competitions. And they saw how their gymnasts reacted to the competitions and the scores they were getting. And they filled up their team based on that...
The problem with US Nationals is favorites are totally being used. I refuse to think that Alissa would have defeated Rachael and likely Caroline too if US Nationals was judged by international judges. I really don't see that one happening. It does no good when favorites are played like that..
In that sense using events like Grand Prix etc can be a smart thing.... The key though was to judge based on recent international competitions. IF the Japanese in 2006 had done this, Nakano would have made the Olympic team over Ando.
But it should be embarrassing and suggests I think the mockery of the scoring that international judges reacted so differently to programs from Alissa/Zhang/Flatt with similar technical content.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Quote:
If they didn't, there would be no connection between the any Nats and GPs.
That is correct. There is no connection between the U.S. National Figure Skating Championships and the Grand Prix.
Why did you reply to my query out of context? I was referring to have the USFS hold a special Olympic Trial. Nothing at all about the Grand Prix It was just a suggestion..
You do think a lot in your responses to queries on official matters. That can be misleading'
_______________________________________________________
The discussion on Sasha, the GPs and the Nats have enlightened me on some of those queries throughout the thread on solid official statements, and I am sure others have learned a bit that they didn't know before.
If they didn't, there would be no connection between the any Nats and GPs.
That is correct. There is no connection between the U.S. National Figure Skating Championships and the Grand Prix.
Why did you reply to my query out of context? I was referring to have the USFS hold a special Olympic Trial. Nothing at all about the Grand Prix It was just a suggestion..
You do think a lot in your responses to queries on official matters. That can be misleading'
_______________________________________________________
The discussion on Sasha, the GPs and the Nats have enlightened me on some of those queries throughout the thread on solid official statements, and I am sure others have learned a bit that they didn't know before.
- Joined
- Apr 2, 2009
Thank you for the update and link.
That gave me a bit of an Olympic thrill lol. It's much too soon for me to get pumped for the Olympics.
Sasha is prettier than ever.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Sorry. I guess I misunderstood your question.
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2007
I just had a nasty thought. Some of us think the USFSA will factor in international competitions to pick the Olympic team, and others think only Nationals will be considered. But maybe they have a plan to do both to avoid a controversy.
They can use the five international competitions on that list to see who does best in front of ISU judges. Then jury rig the results at Nationals to make those skaters/teams come out on top. That way, the best skaters/teams go to Vancouver, the National results are respected and nobody cries foul.
That sounds like something the USFSA would pull.
They can use the five international competitions on that list to see who does best in front of ISU judges. Then jury rig the results at Nationals to make those skaters/teams come out on top. That way, the best skaters/teams go to Vancouver, the National results are respected and nobody cries foul.
That sounds like something the USFSA would pull.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
This is a posting style that I have learned to adopt on message boards. My hope is that by sprinkling my posts with "I think," "I believe," "in my opinion," "my understanding is," etc., maybe I won't come off as an insufferable know-it-all. In fact, however, I almost always check the official documents before jumping in. When I answered your questions about the relation between the IOC and the ISU, and between the USOC and USFS, I referred to the International Olympic Charter. (Google is a wonderful thing!)
http://multimedia.olympic.org/pdf/en_report_122.pdf
The ISU, however, makes it difficult, because there are so many rules and conventions that do not seem to be written down anywhere that is accessible to the public. This document, for instance, supposedly carries all the rules for the selection procedures for Grand Prix events.
http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=1403
But many details are missing, and that's where the confusion comes in. Posters who know the inside dope, like ChuckM and Sylvia, are an invaluable resource to the board. :agree:
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2006
Yu Na *used* to wear only pastel costumes once. She has been using at least 3 or 4 light blue dresses through the years.Don't Yu-Na and Mao wear non-pastel costumes? Miki does, too, and Caro. But only Jenna McCorkell dares to wear pants.
.
This years she was dressed in black for the sp and red for the lp and looked much more mature!
Anyway also Kostner wore pants in her winning sp in Goteborg
http://www.carolina-kostner.it/pictures/worlds08/SP/02.jpg
SC: Hey, Michelle, you’re not actually serious about Vancouver, are you?
MK: Nah. You?
SC: Yeah, right
MK: OK, so here’s the plan. You announce that you are going to do Skate America. Then the week before you sprain your ankle practicing your quad Sal. We’ve got USFS by the short hairs. After spending a fortune promoting SASHA AT STATE AMERICA!!!!!!!!, now they have to give everybody their money back.
SC: I get it, so then – for the right price -- MICHELLE KWAN!!!!!!!!! jumps in and saves the event.
MK: It’s foolproof. I’ll do a couple of spirals and a double Axel – make that a double toe – and graciously accept the bronze medal behind Yu-na and Rachael. No one will blame me, because, after all, I only had four days to get ready.
SC: Sounds good to me. When you go to Vancouver as a commentator for NBC, say hi to ZHENYA!!!!!!!!!! for me.
(Just kidding, everyone.
This really..really! made my day
You mean besides Yu-na perfect 3/3?
Maybe we haven't seen many,not this year, with Kostner having a no season. In 2008 she did 3f+3t in every single short program she skated winning all of them expect gp final.
I am a notorious Kostner fan, so assuming that Kim is skating in a league of her own and Kostner (which jumps 3+3+2 as well) is too inconsistent to tell, how is Sasha supposed to beat:
Mao (which has consistent 3 axel, won a WC even without it, and is going to put it in the short program)
Rochette (with 3sal+3 toe SEQ)
Nakano
Ando
in order to get a Bronze or a Silver medal?
Then considering what kind of competition the Olys are,maybe.. Kim is going to fall over the place and Orser will step on the ice and skate in her place, Mao will totally forget how to jump an axel, Ando is going to stop skating and start crying at the middle of the program, Kostner will single all of her jumps (ops, that did actually happen before) and Nakano...well I don't know, but if it happens something to her as well..yes, Sasha is going for the gold
Last edited:
Similar threads
