Plushenko will honour us with his presence in 2010!

[antmanb]

Is Plushy the master of the quads? I don't recall him being an innovator in this respect or having a better quad than the others. He probably was a bit more consistent with it than most of the men, esp. after SLC, and could do more difficult quad combinations. But I wouldn't consider him a master of that jump.

I don't think someone has to be an innovator of an element to be a "master" of the element, but as you rightly point out he was the innovator of the 4/3/2 and 4/3/3 and was also attempting (though didn't successfully land) the quad lutz in competition.

As far as his quad being better than others - he did have a slightly weak landing (in the same way that Yags and Joubert did/do) but i think the height he got was more or less unrivaled along with the speed going into it.

For me, I called him a master of the quad simply because, no-one has successfully landed the quad in the short and long for the same period of time with the same level of consistency. Falling or having problems with it was the exception to prove the rule.

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Is Plushy the master of the quads? I don't recall him being an innovator in this respect or having a better quad than the others. He probably was a bit more consistent with it than most of the men, esp. after SLC, and could do more difficult quad combinations. But I wouldn't consider him a master of that jump.

Joubert's been talking about quads since well before Plushy's, um, temporary retirement? Is that a good term? Anyway, here's Brian on the subject of quads in January 2006:

Plushy is slightly the better toe quadder but what else? another quad? what else? certainly nothing that defines his skating. He will skate, jump, stop and pose. his footwork will be slam bang up the ice; he will attempt some spins, his style will be braggadocio-like, with no variation throughout. But if the Quad is your thing, then Plushy is your man.

Brian can do better but he will not get the scores that Plushy will get. It would be interesting to see if they meet toerake-to-toerake in Euros. NO?

 

[Fashionista]

Ok, Buttercup, let's call Plushenko not master of quads but master of jumps.
I really think he was the most consistent male skater in figure skating history.

 

[Fashionista]

Brian can do better but he will not get the scores that Plushy will get.

And you know why? because he has poor consistency and it's very likely that he melts down on Olympics.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

And you know why? because he has poor consistency and it's very likely that he melts down on Olympics.

hmmm. And you are a fan of Plushy. No?

 

[antmanb]

Never give up! Never surrender!

I can't believe i'm actually getting involved in the Plush/Joubert debate when if anything I prefer Joubert to Plush!

You are talking about longevity, which is not I meant. Though a certain French skater just finished his 8th senior season, and as far as I know has never stopped doing quads - in a time when few even try them occasionally. And his jump issues tend to be on elements other than the quad. Ha! Admit it! Brian Joubert totally rules! He is the reigning master of the quad!

But longevity is a great consideration when talking about success (and logically being a "master" of something). Joubert might well have just finished his 8th senior year but he hasn't hit quad after quad in SP and LP consistently for all of those years, in fact for some back to back years he's been lucky to squeak out a couple.

In terms of consistency, there were other contemporaries of Plushenko who were pretty consistent with the quad, especially when more men were doing them. I will hand it to Plushy - when it came to doing the hardest quad combinations, I'm pretty sure he was in a league of his own. Though who knows what Yagudin might have done if his career had not been ended by injury. But the bottom line for me is that Evgeni Plushenko wasn't better at doing quads than every single skater he faced in his career, and therefore cannot be described as the master of them.

So who are we really discussing here because i'm struggling to think who you could be talking about? Yagudin is my favourite male skater, but his quad was identical to Pluschenko's (having learnt from Mishin, including set up, dropped upper body on landing etc) so it could not be said to be better goven that they were more or less identical. Yags has a couple of seasons on Plush as a senior, but Plush has more or less a full four seasons longer in the sport so on longevity with the quad he probably has him beat.

The only other skater I can think of with success at the quads was Tim Goebel, but really with his terrible outrigged technique on the quad sal (which would surely be worth of -1 to -2 GOE), consistency issues with the quad toe, and comparatively short reign landing the quad with any consistency, again i'd have to say Plush has him beat. Aside from Joubert (who i've already explained why his mastery of the quad is lesser than Plush's), who else is there?

Ant

 

[seniorita]

I think longevity is really important for a skater, cause many dropped it or got injured and never tried again in their amateur carrier, and not many that kept landing them rarely falling in sp and lp for so many years, I think he was doing something really well not to fall in pieces after all these years. Height and speed and air position and concetration and you just knew he would not fall. And he had the ability to save his jumps, I remember cases when i would swear he would fall.
I know yagudin could have done more, and if these two continued to be rivals we would have seen even more. At the bottom, master or no master of quads, these titles are not so important for me, what you see in a skater matters, no?

He will skate, jump, stop and pose. his footwork will be slam bang up the ice; he will attempt some spins, his style will be braggadocio-like, with no variation throughout

Brian for me is surely big in jumps but what Joe described about Plush I see it in Joubert, plus no flexibility and motion in his upper body and no details in his movements. Just what I feel when watching.

hmmm. And you are a fan of Plushy. No?

Come on Joeee, we are minority here, threatened to extinction

Now i give up.

 

[Buttercup]

I'll try to explain - it seemed so simple when I was thinking it...

Plushenko in terms of longevity and consistency combined is/was indeed very strong. The point is that in terms of real time consistency, he did not have a better or more consitent quad than all of his competitors. Therefore he was an excellent skater, just not the "master of the quads". There is no such person. Who cares, really? OK, obviously with this being my third post on the subject I sort of care. But this is my defense of proper usage of the term, not a take on Plushy's merits or lack thereof.

My memory of Joubert's earlier seasons is by now pretty hazy, but as far as I can remember, his jump issues are usually not with the quad; that jump is actually pretty consistent for him - probably more consistent than any of the current guys, though that's not saying much. He doesn't have the prettiest quad, though; Yannick and Tomas, when they're not making mistakes, win that category, I think.

 

[seniorita]

I can't believe i'm actually getting involved in the Plush/Joubert debate when if anything I prefer Joubert to Plush!
Ant

I told you must be ill a little bit

I dont know if I can debate either, firtsly cause obviously I ll be biased and at the bottom line these two have met on ice multiple times, what to say?

 

[Buttercup]

I dont know if I can debate either, firtsly cause obviously I ll be biased and at the bottom line these two have met on ice multiple times, what to say?

Well, Michelle Kwan and Lu Chen met on the several times, and we know how most of those turned out. And yet, I still prefer Lulu. Just because someone gets better results (sometimes justifiably) doesn't mean we need to like that skater/pair/ice dance team best. I like the Kerrs and Pechalat/Bourzat better than all of the medalists at this year's Worlds. But let's not go there.

I think Plushy was skating with a bit of a point cushion because of his success and reputation, and for some skaters it may have been a factor in their own performance, because it would have been pretty stressful. For instance, some judges had Plushenko first after his hideous 2004 Euros LP, and that point lead he had over Johnny at Olys after the SP was ludicrous.

 

[seniorita]

I didnt mean we need to like them, I just meant that whatever we say here skaters speak on ice.
I disagree about Tosca, but 2004 euros Joubert was far better but in anycase this is judges' problem who they put first, not the skaters'.

Honestly 86 score for Jouberts sp is ok? Success and reputation dont come to any skater with easy way, Plush had gained it as Joubert has gained it now and gets big marks in sp, I dont see anything wrong towards the other skaters if they are stressed or not. (there is slight possibility i didnt understand what you said). What is point cushion?

 

[life684]

Well, Michelle Kwan and Lu Chen met on the several times, and we know how most of those turned out. And yet, I still prefer Lulu. Just because someone gets better results (sometimes justifiably) doesn't mean we need to like that skater/pair/ice dance team best. I like the Kerrs and Pechalat/Bourzat better than all of the medalists at this year's Worlds. But let's not go there.

I think Plushy was skating with a bit of a point cushion because of his success and reputation, and for some skaters it may have been a factor in their own performance, because it would have been pretty stressful. For instance, some judges had Plushenko first after his hideous 2004 Euros LP, and that point lead he had over Johnny at Olys after the SP was ludicrous.

Johny weir had a technical inferior program than plushenko which resulted in the huge lead for Plushenko, their was a difference of 9 points on technical side which explains whole score difference. Whole argument that since weir had a ok performance and hence score should be close, I cannot understand that point, i believe want he decided to put in the program decided the scores.

 

[Buttercup]

Honestly 86 score for Jouberts sp is ok? Success and reputation dont come to any skater with easy way, Plush had gained it as Joubert has gained it now and gets big marks in sp, I dont see anything wrong towards the other skaters if they are stressed or not. (there is slight possibility i didnt understand what you said). What is point cushion?

I thought you'd maybe write about Chan's 4CC score .

I believe Plushnko's reputation points exceeded those of other skaters. Essentially he got points for being Plushenko, and would have gotten them even for the Buttercup-patented program of skating around the rink (in all fairness, his edges would have been better ). Yes, all the top guys earn themselves a little bit extra eventually. It's just that Plushy earned more than the others. He didn't win events he shouldn't have, but he did sometimes win by more than he should have.

life684, at Torino, Plushy indeed had a higher base mark (fully justified). But he also got two extra points on PCS and another two extra points or so on GOEs. I don't see how Plushenko's performance deserved those.

 

[antmanb]

I'll try to explain - it seemed so simple when I was thinking it...

Well since i haven't had a good long debate with anyone in a while, and particularly because we've always been able to disagree with each other strongly and not get bent out of shape about it i'll have to continue

Plus it gives me bonus points with seniorita because it looks like i'm defending Plush when everynoe knows i can't stand him

Plushenko in terms of longevity and consistency combined is/was indeed very strong. The point is that in terms of real time consistency, he did not have a better or more consitent quad than all of his competitors. Therefore he was an excellent skater, just not the "master of the quads". There is no such person. Who cares, really? OK, obviously with this being my third post on the subject I sort of care. But this is my defense of proper usage of the term, not a take on Plushy's merits or lack thereof.

So what is the proper use of the term? I've just looked it up and the relevant definitions are the following:

1. a person with the ability or power to use, control, or dispose of something: a master of six languages; to be master of one's fate.

2. a person eminently skilled in something, as an occupation, art, or science: the great masters of the Impressionist period.

3 a person holding this title.

4 a victor or conqueror.

5 being master; exercising mastery; dominant

6 characteristic of a master; showing mastery.

And mastery meaning command or grasp.

I think it is being used correctly with Pluschenko and more so than anyone else (and you knw i don't laud Pluschenko with compliments often!).

My memory of Joubert's earlier seasons is by now pretty hazy, but as far as I can remember, his jump issues are usually not with the quad; that jump is actually pretty consistent for him - probably more consistent than any of the current guys, though that's not saying much. He doesn't have the prettiest quad, though; Yannick and Tomas, when they're not making mistakes, win that category, I think.

Actually in terms of beauty I think Sandhu had Pluschenko beaten when he landed it. I like Tomas's quad, but i'm not the biggest fan of Ponsero's simply because it always looks quite wild, the set up feels short and choppy rather than smooth, even though the flow and speed on the landing is superior to anyone else. However, you have to land it, land it well and land it often, I would say to be the "master"! None of Sandhu, Verner or Ponsero landed/land it frequently enough.

I told you must be ill a little bit

Maybe it's swine flu?!

Ant

 

[seniorita]

I thought you'd maybe write about Chan's 4CC score .
Essentially he got points for being Plushenko

I would give him +10 GOES for his beauuuutiful triple axel in Tosca.

I forgot about Chan, but i have no bad feelings neither for joubert high marked, as I have said this is not their business, and there are many that take gifts anyway.This is how it goes. Usually people spot these gifts only for the top names.
Have you thought that to bulid his profile and stay on top was not so piece of cake? It is too many years in fs terms. Maybe it was hard also for him to come to competitions and be Plushenko who never makes false and delivers. I remember the reaction of hamilton in his SLC sp, I think he was more upset than plushy himself.

Plus it gives me bonus points with seniorita because it looks like i'm defending Plush when everynoe knows i can't stand him

(i can read the small letters you know..)

Wow, you cant stand him? i didnt know that...I hope you understand now our friendship is coming to an end :boohoo:

No it is famous Plyushchenko flu, you ll survive..

 

[Buttercup]

I would give him +10 GOES for his beauuuutiful triple axel in Tosca.

I forgot about Chan, but i have no bad feelings neither for joubert high marked, as I have said this is not their business, and there are many that take gifts anyway.This is how it goes. Usually people spot these gifts only for the top names.

That's because they're the only ones being gifted... No doubt Plushy and the other top guys worked very hard to get to the point where the judges were giving them the benefit of the doubt. It's just that sometimes with Plushy it was just blatant, beyond even what people like Lambiel or Joubert would enjoy.

My brother (who, for the record, liked Plushenko's skating better than Yagudin's) informs me that our discussion is silly. I'm kind of feeling like he is, well, right . I've just written 4 or five posts about whether Plush was excellent or the master. This is splitting hairs. We should stop.

 

[seniorita]

All I wanted to write this morning was that plushy got in national team and gave his plan.

It's just that sometimes with Plushy it was just blatant, beyond even what people like Lambiel or Joubert would enjoy.

so we come back to 2 hours before... that was happening maybe because he was the master?
I think Lambiel and Joubert were also given gift points when they reached the top cream, but you are right, the most important thing is now I like your brother

 

[elanna]

Exciting news!! The guys who weren`t very good at the 2006 Olys seem to be going to get an excellent opportunity for revanche: each of them can become a new Oly champ and, in addition to this, give a very nice kick to the previous one! How very interesting! The men`s field isn`t that strong these days, yes, but Plushenko`s promising to be even more bleak and dull than he was at Turin either! In any case, the competition will be highly entertaining!

 

[Fashionista]

hmmm. And you are a fan of Plushy. No?

Never was.
But I've always thought that it's an objective truth.

 

[life684]

I thought you'd maybe write about Chan's 4CC score .

I believe Plushnko's reputation points exceeded those of other skaters. Essentially he got points for being Plushenko, and would have gotten them even for the Buttercup-patented program of skating around the rink (in all fairness, his edges would have been better ). Yes, all the top guys earn themselves a little bit extra eventually. It's just that Plushy earned more than the others. He didn't win events he shouldn't have, but he did sometimes win by more than he should have.

life684, at Torino, Plushy indeed had a higher base mark (fully justified). But he also got two extra points on PCS and another two extra points or so on GOEs. I don't see how Plushenko's performance deserved those.

That can be well explained by the flip weir did, judges gave him - goe for that and plushy received + goe for his lutz; this along with circular step sequence made the big difference in points.

As far as pcs concerned, judges always have given plushy better marks. soon i would argue why Weir received higher marks than lambiel (who was the world champion), whom i think on skating should have received better marks.