Caroline Zhang's 2009-10 season

[Tinymavy15]

I think Caroline has to win Natls to get a spot on the Olympic team especially if Sasha returns and finishes 2nd or 3rd. If we get Rachael or Sasha finishing first I am afraid Caroline might get bumped out of second. Maybe as you have said previously a very strong GP season will help her. But it will be tough in Paris making it to the podium against that field. But I have faith in Caroline and think this will be her year to breakout.

I just have this awful feeling that USFSA will send the top two period. Not matter who they are.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

One has to accept the fact that Sasha does not have to podium at Nats but must make an impression to a reviewing body for placement on the USFS Oly Team.

I believe the gold medal skater at Ladies USFS Nats will automatically be on the Team so it's just a second member of the Team which will be assessed.

How impressed will the reviewing body be will hinge on how impressionable she was at TEB and SA as well as Nats along with other competitors.

Thinking of Mao, YuNa and Joannie, which American senior lady can compete against those three? That is how the Reviewing Body should view their work. Remember, Sasha did not have to skate the GPs.

 

[R.D.]

I just have this awful feeling that USFSA will send the top two period. Not matter who they are.

How is it awful? I think it's quite fair.

 

[janetfan]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinymavy15
I just have this awful feeling that USFSA will send the top two period. Not matter who they are.
________________________________________________________________

How is it awful? I think it's quite fair.

I agree and also think it is fair - as long as the judging is aslo fair

 

[PolymerBob]

How is it awful? I think it's quite fair.

Yes, it's fair, it's reasonable, it’s equitable, it’s logical.

The only thing it is NOT is what the USFSA told us they were going to do.

 

[R.D.]

The only thing it is NOT is what the USFSA told us they were going to do.

 

[janetfan]

Not sure, but perhaps he is referring to the two ladies US Skating sent to Worlds last season.

 

[Mathman]

The only thing it is NOT is what the USFSA told us they were going to do.

This is what the USFSA told us they were going to do. They told us that they would choose the team according to the following criteria, in order of importance.

1. Placement at U.S. Nationals. (This is number one. Number one is more important than number two. Or number three. That's why it is number one.)

2. Placement at the Grand Prix Final. (Not, "doing well in the individual events," not "doing better in the Grand Prix than the other American ladies," not merely "making the Grand Prix final." Acheiving a high placement at the Grand Prix Finals -- in other worlds, beating some of the big girls.)

3. Placement at Worlds. This means Lysacek. Rachael's fifth place finish, 16 points behind the fourth place skater and 35 points behind the winner, will not be enough to trigger this bullet, way down the list at number three.

4., 5., 6., etc. Junior Worlds, etc. Will not play a role.

 

[Andalusia]

I think people are referring to concerns that the top 2 at Nats will be sent to the Olympics. Last I heard, the USFSA wasn't going to use placements at Nats as the sole criteria for determining the Olympic team. Say, Skater X stinks up the GP circuit and then happens to do well at Nats. It wouldn't be terribly fair to me if he/she gets sent to the Olympics simply by virtue of having placed in the top 2.

And, feraina - ITA with you again, as usual. Why is that? It's funny how Caroline idolizes Michelle, and yet she doesn't embody what Michelle is best known for. We know Michelle has advised Caroline to skate more from the heart and to be more expressive. I don't think Caroline's entirely to blame, though. Michelle had it easier back in her day, whereas skaters these days have to worry about so much more whilst performing that it's hard to focus on the more artistic aspects of the sport. I've noticed that Caroline showed more flair and personality in her programs before she started getting underrotation calls and such.

Caroline also needs to expand her choreographic selections in order to break out of her artistic shell. Michelle became a mature skater quite dramatically skating to music like Salome and Taj Mahal (and also at 15 to 16 years of age), while Caroline is still perceived to be stuck in the drab, pwetty princess mould.

 

[janetfan]

I think people are referring to concerns that the top 2 at Nats will be sent to the Olympics. Last I heard, the USFSA wasn't going to use placements at Nats as the sole criteria for determining the Olympic team. Say, Skater X stinks up the GP circuit and then happens to do well at Nats. It wouldn't be terribly fair to me if he/she gets sent to the Olympics simply by virtue of having placed in the top 2.

And, feraina - ITA with you again, as usual. Why is that? It's funny how Caroline idolizes Michelle, and yet she doesn't embody what Michelle is best known for. We know Michelle has advised Caroline to skate more from the heart and to be more expressive. I don't think Caroline's entirely to blame, though. Michelle had it easier back in her day, whereas skaters these days have to worry about so much more whilst performing that it's hard to focus on the more artistic aspects of the sport. I've noticed that Caroline showed more flair and personality in her programs before she started getting underrotation calls and such.

Caroline also needs to expand her choreographic selections in order to break out of her artistic shell. Michelle became a mature skater quite dramatically skating to music like Salome and Taj Mahal (and also at 15 to 16 years of age), while Caroline is still perceived to be stuck in the drab, pwetty princess mould.

Actually my fear is that Caroline will finish 2nd at Natls and get bumped for a 3rd place Rachael or Sasha. People are forgetting the youngster who made the BIG coaching change this season - Mirai. And Alissa is still around and is taking this season off from school to concentrate on skating.

But my earlier comment was meant to imply that Caroline does not seem to get marked so fairly at US Natls. She seems to outscore Rachael and Alissa at Intl events but not at home.

 

[feraina]

Caroline also needs to expand her choreographic selections in order to break out of her artistic shell. Michelle became a mature skater quite dramatically skating to music like Salome and Taj Mahal (and also at 15 to 16 years of age), while Caroline is still perceived to be stuck in the drab, pwetty princess mould.

The thing that really struck me about Michelle when I watched her clips again is that she always skated with such supreme confidence. She exuded this sureness that that the audience would love her performance, that they were just entralled and in the palm of her hand and didn't ever want it to end -- she *knew* this and she skated with this knowledge, and lo behold, the audience behaved exactly the way she believed they would. I think that's also part of the this "sharing" process she created -- she had expectations of the audience, and they obliged.

Caroline doesn't have this air of confidence at all, nor does Mao -- despite the fact that she has superhuman jumping abilities, plus awesome spins, spirals, footwork seq's and tremendous skating skills. Yu-na has the most confidence of all current ladies, I think, and Joannie suddenly gained a good amount in the past season (and then look at how her PCS shot up!). Alissa kinda skates like she knows the audience loves her and is cheering for her (but her technical prowess is somehow just inadequate for the occasion).

Part of that confidence that Michelle oozed came from her technical ability and general fitness. She knew she was rock solid technically, so she could get away from obsessing with it during a performance. But part of it is also personal maturity, some adults never feel comfortable performing in front of a large audience, and some kids are natural performers, but in general people become more confident as they grow older and get more experience. Michelle obviously went through a radical transforming in this respect at 15.

This is why I posted a while back in this thread saying that I'm optimistic about Caroline's growth as a skater in the near future, because I sense she's maturing fast and she does have a natural diva-esque performer inside her that's just waiting to burst all as soon as she has the mental confidence to let it show, even in a stressful competitive situation. She was actually a better performer when she was younger, but then she went through this awkward young teenager phase where she got really self-conscious and self-doubting. I can't wait to see the young lady that will emerge once she grows out of it!

P.S. Of course music choice and choreography matter, but I think Michelle could've brought almost any reasonably choreographed piece to life and the audience to their feet. She skated with so much belief and expectation, that you felt like you wanted to be part of the story with her. It's like watching a movie, it's much more enjoyable if you can believe in it.

 

[PolymerBob]

Very well put, Feraina.

Actually my fear is that Caroline will finish 2nd at Natls and get bumped for a 3rd place Rachael or Sasha. People are forgetting the youngster who made the BIG coaching change this season - Mirai. And Alissa is still around and is taking this season off from school to concentrate on skating.

But my earlier comment was meant to imply that Caroline does not seem to get marked so fairly at US Natls. She seems to outscore Rachael and Alissa at Intl events but not at home.

That is exactly our friends at the USFSA learned the hard way. What went through their minds when they saw Team USA get their butts mule-kicked by a scrub at 4CC?

If Michelle and Sasha don't come back, I would be confident our Olympic team will be chosen before stainless steel ever scratches national ice. ( Much like a Presidential candidate being chosen before the convention. ) But with those two in the mix, I just don't know. They have serious star power. Will that be enough to override the stars of the GPF ( if any )?

My best guess would be that Nationals will be a skate-off between Sasha, Michelle, and the girls who do better than them in the Grand Prix ( again, if any ).

 

[bekalc]

That is exactly our friends at the USFSA learned the hard way. What went through their minds when they saw Team USA get their butts mule-kicked by a scrub at 4CC?

Yes but Rachael did better on the GP series that year, and well you cannot forget about Caroline's implosion at Junior Worlds.

But yes the USFSA should be kicking themselves that they didn't make the team Flatt/Zhang.

 

[Andalusia]

[entire post]

Get out of my mind, feraina! You've expressed precisely how I feel about these 2 skaters, but much better than I could've.

I still think, however, that judges would better reward a FS like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKmUW8wPB0s

than this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdwZoENkTXw (both skaters are 15 in these clips)

The first has tension and drama, and 7 beautiful triples. The music is also varied and has changes in tempo. I doubt Michelle would've been able to break out and enthrall everyone as she did that year had she skated to Ave Maria. If I were a judge, I'd much rather see something mature and different, rather than a generic princessy program. The judges must've seen umpteen Ave Maria or Sleeping Beauty programs by young skaters all over the world - perhaps this is why the more challenging music and choreography in Michelle's Salome program has only ever been produced by her. That's why I'm slightly disappointed in Caroline's choice of The Nutcracker (Pas de Deux) - the music lends itself well to a program akin to her Ave Maria LP (I can even picture her wearing a similar pretty pastel dress). She is playing it safe, when something much more different might be in order for her to 'establish' herself during an Olympic year.

Hopefully, all the above concerns will prove to be unfounded.

Yes but Rachael did better on the GP series that year, and well you cannot forget about Caroline's implosion at Junior Worlds.

But yes the USFSA should be kicking themselves that they didn't make the team Flatt/Zhang.

Since you're always eager to get down to the nitty-gritty, it should be noted (and someone can correct me if I'm wrong) that Caroline had physical difficulties at the start of last season, problems that might explain why her jumps looked the worse I've ever seen them at SC and TEB. If she had then the form and conditioning she had later in the season, she might very well have done better than Rachael did in the GP circuit. Who knows, she might even have made the GPF, as she did the previous season. The fact that Caroline has beaten Rachael in most recent international competitions (even when both were relatively clean) lends credence to this theory.

 

[Tinymavy15]

I think feraina really hit on something with the confidence idea. Being confident in you ability is the key part of anything..a job interview, a runway walk, a date, even a figure skating program. skaters like Michelle and Yu-na know how to mask any weakness they have by selling their strengths. michelle wrote in her autobiography that her triple lutz was a very bad jump for her in the early years....but you would never know that watching her. She landed them everytime, usually with great ease. Once the music started she was in program mode and turned into a performer who was saying "look at this!" with every move.

Mao always strikes me as being a nervous wreck before she skates and only is relieved after the music ends. She reminds me of a tight rope act...always attempting the impossible and holding her breath hoping that she makes it.

 

[feraina]

Get out of my mind, feraina! You've expressed precisely how I feel about these 2 skaters, but much better than I could've.

Haha, we're not twins separated at birth, are we? I've always wanted a sister.

I still think, however, that judges would better reward a FS like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKmUW8wPB0s

than this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdwZoENkTXw (both skaters are 15 in these clips)

What about Lyra Angelica vs Ave Maria?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okPRcajUQrM
That's one of my favorite of Michelle's LP's. The music is quite similar to Ave Maria, slow, swelling, lyrical string phrases. But Michelle made it come to life. I bet if she had skated to Ave Maria that year instead of Lyra Angelica, she would've enthralled people just as much. The fact is, everything Michelle touched turned into gold. It's the skater that makes the music, not the music that makes the skater.

 

[bekalc]

Caroline has beaten Rachael in most recent international competitions (even when both were relatively clean) lends credence to this theory.

Rachael wasn't clean at Four Continents, if I recall correctly.. And well, I believe that she had some minor downgrades that Zhang did not have at WTT (on a combo jump)

Flatt got higher Pcs than Zhang at World Team Trophy. If she can continue to improve her skating skills, repeat the loop instead of her flutz or work on the flutz, and work on getting her 3/3 around. Flatt can beat Zhang...

The fact is though at that year's Nationals Rachael was coming off of beating Caroline at Junior Worlds, and the best Grand Prix finish of the ladies.

I would also like to point out that Caroline had nothing to lose at Four Continents and Junior Worlds. We don't know if she would have really finished ahead of Flatt at Worlds.

 

[skates]

Rachael wasn't clean at Four Continents, if I recall correctly.. And well, I believe that she had some minor downgrades that Zhang did not have at WTT (on a combo jump)

Flatt got higher Pcs than Zhang at World Team Trophy. If she can continue to improve her skating skills, repeat the loop instead of her flutz or work on the flutz, and work on getting her 3/3 around. Flatt can beat Zhang...

The fact is though at that year's Nationals Rachael was coming off of beating Caroline at Junior Worlds, and the best Grand Prix finish of the ladies.

I would also like to point out that Caroline had nothing to lose at Four Continents and Junior Worlds. We don't know if she would have really finished ahead of Flatt at Worlds.

By half a point.

I would not say that Caroline had nothing to lose at 4CC. She needed to beat Alissa and Rachael to prove that she was as good as they were after questionable judging at Nationals.

 

[Alicja]

Man, I like Caroline and I'd love to see her make the team. But this thread is getting soo annoying. No other opinion than Caroline is the best US lady, the uncrowned top US lady, the USFSA hates her, she gets screwed at Nationals seems to be allowed.

If anything the top US lady is Alissa, becaue she's the national champion. Like it or not. She is. Nobody can take it away from her.
Internationally, it was Rachael, just point-wise. And it doesn't matter why, it's just that way.

 

[janetfan]

Man, I like Caroline and I'd love to see her make the team. But this thread is getting soo annoying. No other opinion than Caroline is the best US lady, the uncrowned top US lady, the USFSA hates her, she gets screwed at Nationals seems to be allowed.

If anything the top US lady is Alissa, becaue she's the national champion. Like it or not. She is. Nobody can take it away from her.
Internationally, it was Rachael, just point-wise. And it doesn't matter why, it's just that way.

I think everyone here acknowledges that Alissa is the reigning US Ladies Champion. I for one, happen to love Alissa's beautiful skating. I also see what a great competitor Rachael is. I think Caroline is also a very good competitor and see nothing wrong with pointing out that she outskated Rachael at 4CC and WTT.

I also mentioned Mirai - who if healthy this season has a very good chance to make the podium at Nationals. It is Mirai - and not Caroline or Rachael who has already won a Sr US Ladies title. It is Mirai who skates most like a senior skater with her bigger jumps and superior speed and ice coverage. It never gets mentioned much but Rachael is a very slow and cautious skater which is something Caroline is constantly criticized for. Rachael also needs to show much more maturity if her skating is to reach the next level.

The fact is that Caroline seems to have more fans that Rachael, Alissa and Mirai combined. I am not sure why - or what it is about Caroline because many of the posts here point out flaws and parts of her skating that could be improved.
But Caroline has something - not sure if it is the most potential - or the undeniable beauty of her skating - or maybe it is an underlying "it" factor that will emerge and blossom this season. Whatever, it will be fun to see what happens this season. :yes: