Top 10 Ladies in Skating History?

[janetfan]

That was an option to choose from at our discretion. Obviously Michelle has to be in our list. So if Kristi gets the 90s, Michelle gets the 2000s and Yuna has to stay in until Soochi to secure her place

If you give the 90s to Michelle, Kristi loses her place. But you could give the 2000s to Irina or Yu-Na.

Irina won more titles and more Olympic medals than Michelle in the 2000 decade. Not to mention more head to head victories against Michelle and a better Grand Prix record.

It seems odd to give Midori the 80's over Kat. Kat absolutely owned the 80's.
I think Michelle was at her best in the 90's - so bye-bye Kristi, and no way I put Midori ahead of Michelle in the 90's either.

I don't think I like your decade system afterall

 

[prettykeys]

Well, it's not my fault, the problem lies with the definition of Decade, if a decade was only five years, it would work wonderfully

I was going to suggest "pentade", but I think the correct term is "lustrum".

Or, why not rank skaters based on Titles/Competitions; Innovators and Standard-setters; Athletic Ability; Memorable Performances?

Of course some skaters would appear in the Top 10 for multiple lists.

 

[Olympia]

Seems like more emphasis is being placed on spirals and spins these days than it used to be, but you can go back and look at various skaters who had that in spades, yet didn't have the jumps (Nathalie Kreig, Lucinda Ruh, Katherine Healy, even Fluer Maxwell). Sasha is mentioned the most because she did have the jumps and she is more recently a top elite skater. But they all were capable of the same spins/spirals Sasha did.

So, while I believe Midori and Sasha have left their mark on the sport, I wouldn't consider them missing from the list.

Ah, Katherine Healy. I used to love watching her when she skated as a youngster, and she was John Curry's protege. In fact, when Sasha first showed up on the scene, I thought of her as "Katherine Healy with jumps."

As you say, Sasha is the one balletic lady who has come closest to combining the extensions, placement, and posture of a dancer with the jumps that could get her onto the podium. She'll always be a favorite of mine for that reason, whether she gets on a top ten list or not.

Okay, Mathman: who did coach Callaghan and Nichol? I know Nichol's Canadian. Was it that skater who died recently, who also coached Patrick Chan?

 

[Mathman]

Osborne Colson?

Okay, Mathman: who did coach Callaghan and Nichol? I know Nichol's Canadian. Was it that skater who died recently, who also coached Patrick Chan?

Close. Colson was the famous coach who coached Patrick Chan. Lori Nichol's coach was the guy who caoches Patrick now, Don Laws.

 

[hikki]

Much as I love Chen Lu (and that second Olympic bronze was one of the most satisfying moments in skating history), I think I'd have to agree with the idea of putting Midori Ido instead of Chen. Ito wasn't just a triple axel on blades. She actually was a very musical, emotional skater. Because she didn't have the long limbs and supple torso people often interpret as graceful, it was easy to assume she was merely a powerhouse. She was powerful, of course, but she was also graceful. And she pioneered the triple axel for ladies.

Completely agreed.

 

[Mathman]

Irina won more titles and more Olympic medals than Michelle in the 2000 decade.

Oh, I don't know about that. Michelle won three world championships in the 2000s (calendar years) and five world medals in all. She also won 6 of her 9 U.S. championships in the new millennium.

If you go by memorable performances, Michelle has her Red Violin at 2000 Worlds, her Song of the Black Swan at 2001 Words, her Fields of Gold exhibition at the 2002 Olympics, her Aranjuez at 2003 Worlds, her Tosca at 2004 U.S. Nationals, her Feeling Begins SP at 2004 Worlds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snYDB9VEdbo

IMHO only Irina's free skate at 2005 Worlds compares.

 

[janetfan]

Oh, I don't know about that. Michelle won three world championships in the 2000s (calendar years) and five world medals in all. She also won 6 of her 9 U.S. championships in the new millennium.

If you go by memorable performances, Michelle has her Red Violin at 2000 Worlds, her Song of the Black Swan at 2001 Words, her Fields of Gold exhibition at the 2002 Olympics, her Aranjuez at 2003 Worlds, her Tosca at 2004 U.S. Nationals, her Feeling Begins SP at 2004 Worlds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snYDB9VEdbo

IMHO only Irina's free skate at 2005 Worlds compares.

I go first by Olympic medals and Irina is the only Lady that won two in this decade.
Next is the head to results which I believe Irina also won this decade.

But it is fine with me to give Kristi the 90's and Michelle this decade.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Kristi was a great champion of her era and it is hard to claim that about Midori. She was more like Janet in that sense, a great skater but not the one able to win many major titles.

Carol went undefeated for four years showing a consistency that Midori never came close to matching.

Going back and comparing eras can be difficult. Katarina is remembered today as the last woman to win back to back OGM's along with four WC's.

The single most underrated thing I find at skating boards is the lack of appreciation and understanding of competitive nerve. It is so difficult to win skating titles without it and Kat had it in spades. Sorry, but Midori maybe not nearly as much compared to Kat.

What you're saying about Midori is completely false.

From 1987 to 1990, Midori's consistency was excellent. BETTER than Katarina's.

Midori should have been the 1987 World Silver Medalist, 1988 Olympic Champion, 1988 World Champion, 1989 World Champion, and 1990 World Champion.

I very much respect Carol Heiss but competing during that era wasn't nearly as difficult. Midori showed the same amount of consistency and did so with incredibly difficult technical content. The judges simply held Midori down most the time. Partly because of school figures and partly because of racism.

Also, Kristi was not a "great champion of her era". She rose to the top for 2 seasons and wasn't even at the top for most of those seasons. She was behind Midori on the Grand Prix in both 1991 and 1992 and only managed to become Champion at the end of those seasons when Midori was injured.

My recollections of Midori are of a skater who did not always perform with joy or land her big jumps. The LP at 89 Worlds is amazing - but you make it sound like that was the norm for her when it was more like the exception.

Hardly the exception at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ahr-qVj7_E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIDkgyLjcPQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIzYlQhiBRo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyu8GYBRIjE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wE5ojtzx8ko

Midori performed beautifully many, many times. Not just at 1989 Worlds.

 

[janetfan]

What you're saying about Midori is completely false.

From 1987 to 1990, Midori's consistency was excellent. BETTER than Katarina's.

Midori should have been the 1987 World Silver Medalist, 1988 Olympic Champion, 1988 World Champion, 1989 World Champion, and 1990 World Champion.

I very much respect Carol Heiss but competing during that era wasn't nearly as difficult. Midori showed the same amount of consistency and did so with incredibly difficult technical content. The judges simply held Midori down most the time. Partly because of school figures and partly because of racism.

Also, Kristi was not a "great champion of her era". She rose to the top for 2 seasons and wasn't even at the top for most of those seasons. She was behind Midori on the Grand Prix in both 1991 and 1992 and only managed to become Champion at the end of those seasons when Midori was injured.



Hardly the exception at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ahr-qVj7_E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIDkgyLjcPQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIzYlQhiBRo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyu8GYBRIjE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wE5ojtzx8ko

Midori performed beautifully many, many times. Not just at 1989 Worlds.

We just disagree about some of this. If you read the thread, I did consider your earlier post and thought Midori should be on the list. Others did not.

My lasting images of Midori will be of Albertville and her falling on her 3L in her SP and then her 3A in her LP. I rememeber after the pressure was off she did land her second 3A in the LP.

Another lasting image is of Midori jumping off the ice and into a camera man.

Also some other very unpleasant memories that were NOT Midories fault of Bonaly and her disgusting warmup back flip into Midori and of course the bad warmup collision.

I don't have time now to watch the clips you just posted but I will check them out later. I enjoyed the one from '89 Worlds that you posted yesterday

 

[Mathman]

I go first by Olympic medals and Irina is the only Lady that won two in this decade.

Next is the head to results which I believe Irina also won this decade.

Are those really the criteria? In the 1970s, both Beatrix Schuba and Karen Magnussen defeated Janet Lynn every single time they met.

1972 Olympics: Schuba 1st, Magnussen 2nd, Lynn 3rd.

1970 Worlds: Schuba 2nd, Magnussen 4th, Lynn 6th
1971 Worlds: Schuba 1st, Magnussen 3rd, Lynn 4th
1972 Worlds: Schuba 1st, Magnussen 2nd, Lynn 3rd
1973 Words: Magnussen 1st, Lynn 2nd (Schuba had retried)

Not in the decade of the 70s, but

1969 Worlds: Schuba 2nd, Lynn 5th (Magnussen did not compete)
1968 Worlds: Schuba 4th, Magnussen 7th, Lynn 9th.

Maybe a case can be made for Trixie Schuba as the skater of the decade for the 1970s. She excelled in figures, and after all, back then figures were the name of the game. (They are still the name, but not the game.)

However, it is Janet Lynn who heads everyone's list, not Schuba or Magnussen. Why? Because of the quality of her performances, not because of the number of Olympic medals or her head-to-head match-ups with her rivals.

Same with Michelle, IMHO.

 

[prettykeys]

Blades of Passion is passionate.

I just wanted to say that I admire and am touched by your respect for Midori. I agree that she is too often overlooked, while being a female skater whose athletic standards remain unsurpassed. Her jumps seem to have gotten bigger towards the end of the 80's and early 90's, and I hadn't seen her before those years (partly because well, I wasn't alive then.) But it is indeed striking how different her style was in her earlier competitive years, as in that 1984 Skate Canada. "Confidence, grace, poise"...were not words commonly used to describe Midori's skating--and I recall her being unfairly hit by her Presentation marks from time to time. I don't know if it was outright racism per se, but I agree that she often wasn't given credit for her expression and frequently referred to as only a "jumper".

Unfortunately, I don't think janetfan is alone in his evaluations. For better or for worse, someone like Katarina Witt consistently enters people's heads of exceptional female skaters more often than Midori Ito does. Partly because of their record, and partly because of the difference in charisma, I think.

 

[prettykeys]

I must say though, it seems very apparent that learning Figures significantly affected the quality of skating. When I see some clips of skaters from previous eras, the quality of the stroking, and the crisp, clean blade-work look to be on a different level than what we have today.

Does anyone else agree, or am I imagining this?

 

[janetfan]

Blades of Passion is passionate.

I just wanted to say that I admire and am touched by your respect for Midori. I agree that she is too often overlooked, while being a female skater whose athletic standards remain unsurpassed. Her jumps seem to have gotten bigger towards the end of the 80's and early 90's, and I hadn't seen her before those years (partly because well, I wasn't alive then.) But it is indeed striking how different her style was in her earlier competitive years, as in that 1984 Skate Canada. "Confidence, grace, poise"...were not words commonly used to describe Midori's skating--and I recall her being unfairly hit by her Presentation marks from time to time. I don't know if it was outright racism per se, but I agree that she often wasn't given credit for her expression and frequently referred to as only a "jumper".

Unfortunately, I don't think janetfan is alone in his evaluations. For better or for worse, someone like Katarina Witt consistently enters people's heads of exceptional female skaters more often than Midori Ito does. Partly because of their record, and partly because of the difference in charisma, I think.

I enjoyed your post, particularly the last paragraph which I think is very true.

Images and fading memories are what many of us have to go on as the years pass.

Midori may have been hurt by racist judging at times and Kristi was much luckier to be from a strong federation.

I think about '08 Worlds and how Yukari (a skater who is not one of my favorites) skated such a great LP and missed the podium. I always wondered if the powers that be or the large number of Euros on the judging panel propped up Caro to prevent an all Asian podium.

Another lasting and bitter memory I have of Midori was seeing part of her apology speech to the Japanese people. That upset me.....and as if poor Midori wasn't harrassed and pressured to the breaking point by her countries fans and media - to have to apologize to them for not winning the OGM just felt so wrong.
If anything they should have apologized to her.

Naturally I rooted hard for Kristi to win in Albertville and my feeling were not racist but nationalistic. Aside from that last statement I have always loved Kristi and always will.

 

[Blades of Passion]

My lasting images of Midori will be of Albertville and her falling on her 3L in her SP and then her 3A in her LP.

Another lasting image is of Midori jumping off the ice and into a camera man.

I'm not sure why you would choose to remember someone's career like that.

I suppose my lasting images of Yamaguchi should be when she nearly fell on her Triple Loop in Albertville and followed it up by doubling her Salchow.

What a champion

 

[prettykeys]

Another lasting and bitter memory I have of Midori was seeing part of her apology speech to the Japanese people. That upset me.....and as if poor Midori wasn't harrassed and pressured to the breaking point by her countries fans and media - to have to apologize to them for not winning the OGM just felt so wrong.
If anything they should have apologized to her.

Naturally I rooted hard for Kristi to win in Albertville and my feeling were not racist but nationalistic. Aside from that last statement I have always loved Kristi and always will.

The story of Midori Ito's apology to her nation breaks my heart. I, too, rooted slightly more for Kristi (although I remember liking them both: Japanese girl from Japan, Japanese girl from America ) solely because I was more bewitched by her spunky personality, I think. I was like 4 or 5 years old. I recall hearing the commentators talk about Midori's amazing abilities, but seeing her fall while Kristi nailed most of her jumps. I never knew then the immense pressure Midori had been under.

 

[janetfan]

I'm not sure why you would choose to remember someone's career like that.

I suppose my lasting images of Yamaguchi should be when she nearly fell on her Triple Loop in Albertville and followed it up by doubling her Salchow.

What a champion

Sarcasm won't build a case or ever make a point with me. Funny sarcasm will make me laugh though.

My remarks about how I remember Midori may be unfortunate or wrong - but they were very honest. There was no sarcasm intended on my part.
I don't have warm and fuzzy memories of her. There could be contributing factors and discussions like this can sometimes change a persons mind.

I used to have a thing against Irina - just because she was always a threat to beat Michelle or Sasha. Unlike Midori, I saw Irina skate so many times that eventually she won me over . What a skater she was!

If I had seen Midori more I probably would have warmed up to her. I wanted Debi to beat Midori and the others in Calgary and I wanted Kristi to win in Albertville.

I seriously doubt if I am the only American fan who was not rooting for Midori to win.

 

[seniorita]

why you make it complicated?I read all pages but I have no clue what you debate, the résumé is the same :
The Queen is Michelle, the King is Evgeni, life is simple.

 

[janetfan]

why you make it complicated?I read all pages but I have no clue what you debate, the résumé is the same :
The Queen is Michelle, the King is Evgeni, life is simple.

:agree:

 

[Olympia]

I must say though, it seems very apparent that learning Figures significantly affected the quality of skating. When I see some clips of skaters from previous eras, the quality of the stroking, and the crisp, clean blade-work look to be on a different level than what we have today.

Does anyone else agree, or am I imagining this?

You're not dreaming it, Prettykeys. Many people have commented on the negative effects of discontinuing figures training. In fact, one person who has publicly said that today's skaters would benefit from learning figures is none other than Janet Lynn, whose medal haul suffered from her weakness in figures. Definitely a facility with figures improves a skater's stroking.

I certainly rooted for Yamaguchi over Ito in Albertville, but largely this was due to a blend of nationalism and personal preference for Yamaguchi's style. Even in the tension of the Albertville long program--at the end of a sixteen-year-long gold medal drought for the U.S.--I was stirred by Ito's sheer grit when she completed the triple axel: still, after all these years, I think the only one done by a woman in the Olympics. One thing I noticed through Ito's career (including later appearances at the pro competition in Landover) was Ito's gentle personality. She was at a disadvantage with North American audiences because she could not speak much English (unlike Yuka Sato, for example, or Witt), so she wasn't a swell interviewee, but her smile communicated her sweetness and modesty. I gather she's now revered in Japan, which is exactly as it should be.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Figures are very unnecessary.

Coaches should be teaching their students blade control. Having a competition to determine who can do the best figures is a waste of time.

There is a "skating skills" program component score. If a skater is lacking in this area then they will be marked down for it.

I don't see skaters from the school figures era having stronger skating skills. Or at least, the best skaters from those times weren't any stronger than the best skaters of today.

Perhaps lesser skaters in modern times have weaker skating skills and would be more forced to improve if the school figures existed, but that's not a very good argument. If those skaters wanted to be on top then they would be trying to improve their skating skills anyway. Introducing school figures wouldn't suddenly make them amazing.