NYT article "Skate Scoring Has Little for Artistry"

[miki88]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/25/sports/olympics/25rings.html?ref=sports

The article talks about Flatt's confusing win over Mirai. Apparently, the audience in the rink also thought Mirai would have come in first. Seems we are not alone in being confused about the final results.

 

[cornell08]

Yeah I read this too, and am pretty much in agreement. But I also think we should stop equating jumps-without-choreo with athleticism and choreo-into-jumps with artistry but not athleticism. Skating a program in character filled with choreographic elements that are both beautiful and difficult IS BOTH artistic AND athletic. I've read alot of articles saying Mirai is the artist and Rachael is the athlete, but I feel like Mirai is both the artist and the athlete. Her speed, ice coverage, extention-- what about that isn't athletic? As much as I find Mirai to be a beautiful skater, I feel like that simplification does not do her skating justice. Its the most well rounded (currently) of any of the top US ladies. A few years ago, weren't we saying Caroline was the artist and Mirai was the athlete? All relative isn't it...

 

[janetfan]

What an interesting article.
Apparently some of the most recognized skating experts who watched last night's LP were sure Mirai won.

Just as I was reconsidering my opinionated comments I realize I am far from alone and in very good company.

Rachael's fans have every right to think she won. CoP geeks can relish this moment where only nitpicking of the worst sort - the type that can destroy skating imo - have a victory.

Apparently not only the experts thought Mirai won last night but so did the crowd watching in the arena as Mirai's ovation was the loudest and the longest.

Thanks for posting the article.

 

[Figure88]

The problem is more with inconsistent judging rather than the overall system. If Mirai had equally rotated her jumps to Flatt's, she shouldn't have been hit with so many UR's. Moreover, ice skating is essentially a sport, not a "beauty pageant" as someone in put it in the article. Artistry is very subjective and not really quantifiable and judging solely on artistry can easily open to the door biased judging as happened under the old system. Besides that, all the skaters know the rules before going in, so it's their best interest to skate within the rules if they're expecting to be rewarded with the points. I think the CoP system of the 50/50 split between TES/PCS is the ideal system, but inconsistently implementing the rules may be the real problem here.

 

[janetfan]

The problem is more with inconsistent judging rather than the overall system. If Mirai had equally rotated her jumps to Flatt's, she shouldn't have been hit with so many UR's. Moreover, ice skating is essentially a sport, not a "beauty pageant" as someone in put it in the article. Artistry is very subjective and not really quantifiable and judging solely on artistry can easily open to the door biased judging as happened under the old system. Besides that, all the skaters know the rules before going in, so it's their best interest to skate within the rules if they're expecting to be rewarded with the points. I think the CoP system of the 50/50 split between TES/PCS is the ideal system, but inconsistently implementing the rules may be the real problem here.

The article also says the ur calls were very questionable.
Think Yuna's SP at the GPF.
Should questionable calls from the techpanel be determing the results this way?

Apparently many experts disagree.

 

[Figure88]

The article also says the ur calls were very questionable.
Think Yuna's SP at the GPF.
Should questionable calls from the techpanel be determing the results this way?

Apparently many experts disagree.

Like I said:


"If Mirai had equally rotated her jumps to Flatt's, she shouldn't have been hit with so many UR's."

 

[demarinis5]

Thanks for the article.

A lot of people watching the competition thought Miria had won. I just got off the phone with my niece and she said tell me again how Rachael scored higher. I had been giving her lessons on COP but she still gets confused sometime, heck I do too. I explained about the Ur calls on Mirai's jumps and how it is a system that is based on points and Rachael did not get any Ur calls because her jumps were fully rotated so she scored higher. She said yeah o.k. I understand, but Mirai was better.

 

[Buttercup]

There are plenty of issues with the IJS that need to be addressed, but if a skater has problems with jump technique - which, based on Nagasu's scoring in recent years, it seems she does - should that skater be rewarded as though everything was perfect? If the argument is that Nagasu's PCS should have been higher, that's okay. But UR calls and their implications are not new, and it really shouldn't have been so hard for NBC and the commentators to explain to the audience what had happened.

Here, I'll give it a shot: "Mirai Nagasu has wonderful presentation, she's an exciting skater, and she landed her jumps. However, several of the jumps she landed were not actually triples because she did not make three rotations in the air. This means that they were scored as doubles, and you can't win US Nats by doing double jumps, even if your presentation of the program is fantastic." I've heard the "marked as a double" line so many times on Eurosport, and it's not as though US commentators can't point it out, too. This is not rocket science.

p.s. why are the senior disciplines in the US referred to as championship disciplines? Are the junior and novice skaters not champions, too?

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

I was being a jerk so I edited this.

 

[miki88]

I don't argue about Mirai's UR calls, but what I don't understand was that there was not much difference between her and Rachel's PCS scores. There should be more of a balance between the technical and the artistic aspects of the scores.

 

[demarinis5]

There are plenty of issues with the IJS that need to be addressed, but if a skater has problems with jump technique - which, based on Nagasu's scoring in recent years, it seems she does - should that skater be rewarded as though everything was perfect? If the argument is that Nagasu's PCS should have been higher, that's okay. But UR calls and their implications are not new, and it really shouldn't have been so hard for NBC and the commentators to explain to the audience what had happened.

Here, I'll give it a shot: "Mirai Nagasu has wonderful presentation, she's an exciting skater, and she landed her jumps. However, several of the jumps she landed were not actually triples because she did not make three rotations in the air. This means that they were scored as doubles, and you can't win US Nats by doing double jumps, even if your presentation of the program is fantastic." I've heard the "marked as a double" line so many times on Eurosport, and it's not as though US commentators can't point it out, too. This is not rocket science.

p.s. why are the senior disciplines in the US referred to as championship disciplines? Are the junior and novice skaters not champions, too?

NBC should hire you. I don't understand why it is so diffcult for them to explain what is going on.

 

[mylastduchess]

There are plenty of issues with the IJS that need to be addressed, but if a skater has problems with jump technique - which, based on Nagasu's scoring in recent years, it seems she does - should that skater be rewarded as though everything was perfect? If the argument is that Nagasu's PCS should have been higher, that's okay. But UR calls and their implications are not new, and it really shouldn't have been so hard for NBC and the commentators to explain to the audience what had happened.

Here, I'll give it a shot: "Mirai Nagasu has wonderful presentation, she's an exciting skater, and she landed her jumps. However, several of the jumps she landed were not actually triples because she did not make three rotations in the air. This means that they were scored as doubles, and you can't win US Nats by doing double jumps, even if your presentation of the program is fantastic." I've heard the "marked as a double" line so many times on Eurosport, and it's not as though US commentators can't point it out, too. This is not rocket science.

p.s. why are the senior disciplines in the US referred to as championship disciplines? Are the junior and novice skaters not champions, too?

okay... point taken but isn't this arguement about PCS and how Flatt outscored everybody in it who are much more interesting to watch than she is?

 

[i love to skate]

okay... point taken but isn't this arguement about PCS and how Flatt outscored everybody in it who are much more interesting to watch than she is?

Mirai beat Rachael on PCS. Who do you have a problem with Rachael beating on PCS? Ashley? I would say those two have very similar skating styles. Sasha? She was tight, nervous, and did not perform. She also got negative GOE on all of her jumps and these affect the overall performance. So, who shouldn't Rachael have beaten?

 

[janetfan]

Mirai beat Rachael on PCS. Who do you have a problem with Rachael beating on PCS? Ashley? I would say those two have very similar skating styles. Sasha? She was tight, nervous, and did not perform. She also got negative GOE on all of her jumps and these affect the overall performance. So, who shouldn't Rachael have beaten?

I don't see much similarity between Rachael and Ashley's skating.

I think Ashley is much more artistic with better positions and stretch and much more attention to choreo. She skates much faster than Rachael and jumps much higher.

How do you think they are the same?

ETA: Mirai and Rachael finished in a virtual tie on the pcs.

 

[mylastduchess]

Mirai beat Rachael on PCS. Who do you have a problem with Rachael beating on PCS? Ashley? I would say those two have very similar skating styles. Sasha? She was tight, nervous, and did not perform. She also got negative GOE on all of her jumps and these affect the overall performance. So, who shouldn't Rachael have beaten?

who shouldn't she have beaten... you want me to name all of them?

 

[Mathman]

There is no question that Rachael should have won. 200 points is more than 188 points.

However, IMHO the ISU is in denial about the disconnect between what the audience sees and reacts emotionally to, and what the technical specialists, judges, and skating officials have been trained to look for. It is not a solution to say that the audience needs to become more knowledgeable – you cannot dictate to the audience what they are supposed to appreciate.

Example: Everyone in the insular world of figure skating hates Carmen. Audiences love it. Mirai deserved an extra +2 for music choice. :yes:

Anyway, the ISU’s stance is, this is a sport and the performance aspect is of secondary importance. So be it. But then they must accept the consequences. Sadly, I believe the consequences will be a shrinking of the appeal of skating as a unique spectator sport.

If I had a solution I would say more. But since I don’t, I will just say, Rachael skated two outstanding programs and won a double-digit victory over the field. Mirai is on the path to becoming a megawatt star. I liked Ryan Bradley’s performances better than Johnny Weirs’s – shame about that SP.

 

[i love to skate]

I don't see much similarity between Rachael and Ashley's skating.

I think Ashley is much more artistic with better positions and stretch and much more attention to choreo. She skates much faster than Rachael and jumps much higher.

How do you think they are the same?

ETA: Mirai and Rachael finished in a virtual tie on the pcs.

The only area I would say Ashley is better is in extension - but it's not as if Rachael has poor extension. They have very similar skating skills, close to the same amounts of transitions, and both perform and execute well.

I feel as if people don't think Rachael fits into the "box" that an American lady must be. I would think that people would be glad that there is an American lady who has improved her jumps, can fully rotate them, and is consistent.

Mirai was still ahead overall on PCS. Rachael won transitions, performances, and interpretation. Mirai was ahead on skating skills and choreography.

 

[janetfan]

The only area I would say Ashley is better is in extension - but it's not as if Rachael has poor extension. They have very similar skating skills, close to the same amounts of transitions, and both perform and execute well.

I feel as if people don't think Rachael fits into the "box" that an American lady must be. I would think that people would be glad that there is an American lady who has improved her jumps, can fully rotate them, and is consistent.

Mirai was still ahead overall on PCS. Rachael won transitions, performances, and interpretation. Mirai was ahead on skating skills and choreography.

Then maybe Rachael and Joannie are a better comparison. Do you think they are similar in skating style?

Here are the pcs totals from last night's LP

Rachael: 61.71
Mirai: 61.78

Like I said - close enough to call a tie.

The SP marks were just as close.

 

[i love to skate]

Then maybe Rachael and Joannie are a better comparison. Do you think they are similar in skating style?

No I don't think they have a similar style. Joannie has world class skating skills, programs chock full of transitions, and great choreography and execution. Maybe someday Rachael will be like Joannie but she isn't there yet. What is with your fixation on Joannie? It doesn't seem to matter what skater is being discussed you bring her into the discussion for some reason.

 

[bekalc]

There is no question that Rachael should have won. 200 points is more than 188 points.

However, IMHO the ISU is in denial about the disconnect between what the audience sees and reacts emotionally to, and what the technical specialists, judges, and skating officials have been trained to look for. It is not a solution to say that the audience needs to become more knowledgeable – you cannot dictate to the audience what they are supposed to appreciate

That's not true. You can dictate to the audience how tough and difficult those triple jumps are. And you can dictate and explain to the audience that jumps are evaulated strictly for rotation edges because this is a technical sport and that its easier to do a cheated triple than it is to do a fully rotated triple jump.

The issue here is that the current comentators explained none of this and downplayed it too. And I seriously don't think that artistry is truly getting knocked down. Rachael has a hard time against skaters like Yu-na Kim even when Yu-na makes mistakes and Rachael-doesn't. Its just the issue here is that the US doesn't have a girl who is a strong technician and a strong artist. And I didn't hear anyone in the article saying Mirai's jumps were rotated they were just complaining about the rules.

However I suspect the skaters who follow the rules and worked hard at mastering fully rotated jumps are thankful that cheated jumps are no longer rewarded.