NYT article "Skate Scoring Has Little for Artistry"

[janetfan]

No I don't think they have a similar style. Joannie has world class skating skills, programs chock full of transitions, and great choreography and execution. Maybe someday Rachael will be like Joannie but she isn't there yet. What is with your fixation on Joannie? It doesn't seem to matter what skater is being discussed you bring her into the discussion for some reason.

Geez, I wasn't aware of that. You mention Joannie cosntantly when talking about Sasha - how one fixed her flutz and the other didn't.

It is also mentioned that Rachael has worked hard to fix her flutz so that would certainly give her something in common with Joannie.

But I think Joannie and Rachael are as far apart stylistically as Ashley and Rachael are. Not much similarity to me.

As a matter of fact skaters rarely remind me of other skaters.

Mirai reminds me of ...Mirai.

 

[Mathman]

Mirai was still ahead overall on PCS. Rachael won transitions, performances, and interpretation. Mirai was ahead on skating skills and choreography.

P/E is the hardest program component to understand. "Establishes an invisible connection with the audience?" -- that was Mirai (indeed, the connection was palpable.)

Interpretation. Here is another area where the gap between the experts and just plain folks is large. It is easy for the audience to see a character-driven display, like a snappy Carmen (hey, the girl is only 16, we can't expect more "Carmen" from her than "snappy." ) What exactly was Rachael was trying to convey with Somewhere in Time (a girl who is sad because Christopher Reeve has left us?) That's not so transparent to the great unwashed. (Same problem with Belbin and Agosto's free dance -- huh?)

Anyway, I would have given Mirai the edge on both P/E and INT. But I don't say anything because I am cowed into submission by those who have greater knowledge of and sensitivity to the performaing arts than I do. And that takes the fun out of it -- it is not fun to be cowed.

 

[i love to skate]

Geez, I wasn't aware of that. You mention Joannie cosntantly when talking about Sasha - how one fixed her flutz and the other didn't.

I mentioned that once. Anyways, enough of this. Good luck to Rachael and Mirai at the Olympics! I hope people will be able to get over the "wuz robbed" accusations and mean spirited comments and will support both girls.

Interpretation. Here is another area where the gap between the experts and just plain folks is large. It is easy for the audience to see a character-driven display, like a snappy Carmen (hey, the girl is only 16, we can't expect more "Carmen" from her than "snappy." ) What exactly was Rachael was trying to convey with Somewhere in Time (a girl who is sad because Christopher Reeve has left us?) That's not so transparent to the great unwashed. (Same problem with Belbin and Agosto's free dance -- huh?)

What was Michelle trying to convey with Lyra Angelica, East of Eden, Tosca, Ariane, The Red Violen, Song of the Blackswan? What was Sarah Hughes displaying with her 2002 long program? Sasha's Rach program, her short program from 2002, or Moonlight Sonata? How about Lipinski's programs from 1996-1998? Lots of times it is just a pretty piece of music which the skater likes, enjoys skating to, and performs lights out. Audiences react to great skating. Didn't Rachael get a standing ovation?

 

[Mathman]

That's not true. You can dictate to the audience how tough and difficult those triple jumps are. And you can dictate and explain to the audience that jumps are evaulated strictly for rotation edges because this is a technical sport and that its easier to do a cheated triple than it is to do a fully rotated triple jump.

Well, of course. You can dictate all you want.

The dictatee may not, however, pay any attention to the would-be dictator.

 

[janetfan]

I mentioned that once. Anyways, enough of this. Good luck to Rachael and Mirai at the Olympics! I hope people will be able to get over the "wuz robbed" accusations and mean spirited comments and will support both girls.

That would only be step one for me.
I still am not happy with CoP - but have narrowed it down to the evil tech callers. :yes:

Maybe if my favorite wins next time because their opponent was taken out by the tech caller I will begin to appreciate it .

 

[i love to skate]

Maybe if my favorite wins next time because their opponent was taken out by the tech caller I will begin to appreciate it .

Well that is pretty much what happened with Sasha in the short - they ignored all her calls, so you should be happy with it

 

[DesertRoad]

The solution, of course, is to implant trackers on all skate boots, and have sensors determine whether a jump is short of 360°. Every time a skater lands a jump, your broadcast will have a beep for acceptable rotation, and a bzzzt for the dreaded under rotation. Or perhaps we can have a flashing bar at the bottom of the screen.

Or, figure skating rules can lighten up, and go back to standards that are perceptible by the human eye. How about, unless a skater lands forward on a jump, it's not an under rotation (in fact, current rules on under rotation on takeoff follow this model)? And let's settle on one kind of score penalty, either a negative GOE or a much lower base value, rather than have both like we do now.

Figure skating is one of the few sports where victory and ranking are, in large part, determined by human judgment and emotion. Therein lies its flaw, but also its charm. It's a sport where the feeling a competitor inspires in the audience can have a direct correlation to his/her results. It's a sport that demands and requires humanity. If we don't get back in touch with that, we've lost something.

 

[janetfan]

Well that is pretty much what happened with Sasha in the short - they ignored all her calls, so you should be happy with it

I think that whenever Sasha competes the LP should be eliminated and the SP should be skated twice.
That might make me happy

 

[janetfan]

The solution, of course, is to implant trackers on all skate boots, and have sensors determine whether a jump is short of 360°. Every time a skater lands a jump, your broadcast will have a beep for acceptable rotation, and a bzzzt for the dreaded under rotation. Or perhaps we can have a flashing bar at the bottom of the screen.

Or, figure skating rules can lighten up, and go back to standards that are perceptible by the human eye. How about, unless a skater lands forward on a jump, it's not an under rotation (in fact, current rules on under rotation on takeoff follow this model)? And let's settle on one kind of score penalty, either a negative GOE or a much lower base value, rather than have both like we do now.

Figure skating is one of the few sports where victory and ranking are, in large part, determined by human judgment and emotion. Therein lies its flaw, but also its charm. It's a sport where the feeling a competitor inspires in the audience can have a direct correlation to his/her results. It's a sport that demands and requires humanity. If we don't get back in touch with that, we've lost something.

Dick Button couldn't have said it better.

 

[Mathman]

What was Michelle trying to convey with Lyra Angelica, East of Eden, Tosca, Ariane, The Red Violen, Song of the Blackswan? What was Sarah Hughes displaying with her 2002 long program? Sasha's Rach program, her short program from 2002, or Moonlight Sonata? How about Lipinski's programs from 1996-1998? Lots of times it is just a pretty piece of music which the skater likes, enjoys skating to, and performs lights out. Audiences react to great skating. Didn't Rachael get a standing ovation?

Yes..yes..yes...but...Rachael got a standing ovation for skating lights out. That is not the same as saying that she gave such a convincing interpretation of the music that she deserved a 7.75 in this catagory.

I might be wrong, but I think if you ask the average person, Who interpreted Tosca better, Michelle or Irina, he or she would say, well, I just loved Michelle's performance, especially at 2004 U.S. Nationals.

But "interpretation?" Irina grabbed her head like she was about to throw herself off the precipice.

I think if you asked the average person whether Michelle "interpreted" the Red Violin music well, he would say, Wow, what a skater! Was there a violin playing? Sorry, I didn't recognize the tune.

 

[i love to skate]

Yes..yes..yes...but...Rachael got a standing ovation for skating lights out. That is not the same as saying that she gave such a convincing interpretation of the music that she deserved a 7.75 in this catagory.

Well you can use the same logic on Mirai. Did she give a convincing and mature interpretation of Carmen? I don't think so. Mirai did not get a standing ovation for her interpretation either - she got one because the audience thought she skated great. Which puts her in the same boat as Rachael.

 

[bekalc]

The solution, of course, is to implant trackers on all skate boots, and have sensors determine whether a jump is short of 360°. Every time a skater lands a jump, your broadcast will have a beep for acceptable rotation, and a bzzzt for the dreaded under rotation. Or perhaps we can have a flashing bar at the bottom of the screen.

Or, figure skating rules can lighten up, and go back to standards that are perceptible by the human eye. How about, unless a skater lands forward on a jump, it's not an under rotation (in fact, current rules on under rotation on takeoff follow this model)? And let's settle on one kind of score penalty, either a negative GOE or a much lower base value, rather than have both like we do now.

Figure skating is one of the few sports where victory and ranking are, in large part, determined by human judgment and emotion. Therein lies its flaw, but also its charm. It's a sport where the feeling a competitor inspires in the audience can have a direct correlation to his/her results. It's a sport that demands and requires humanity. If we don't get back in touch with that, we've lost something.

I'm sorry but do you seriously think it was fair that previously a girl who did a flutz was getting the same credit as a girl who did the jump correctly? Do you realize how much time and work the girl who did the lutz correctly put into getting the jump correct? How "humane" is it that people before were getting credit for cheated jumps and wrong edge take offs/landings? How do you think it made the girl who learned how to do the lutz correctly feel? It had to feel that her time was wasted spending all that effort learning to do things the right way. But I guess such things as yes fairness and encouraging people to follow the rules and do things the right way aren't humane.

Maybe the answer is that coaches teach skaters correct technique when it comes to jumps. Which I think is happening more and more because bad technique is getting penalized. When everyone is jumping correctly than we can get back into the coolness of audience responses factoring into things. Besides actually better for girls bodies for them to learn how to do the jumps right.

 

[janetfan]

. When everyone is jumping correctly than we can get back into the coolness of audience responses factoring into things. .

I hope we still have enough of an audience to see it in the future.

 

[bekalc]

I hope we still have enough of an audience to see it in the future.

I'm sure we will. There are girls with good technique and artistry out there. And I honestly think that a lot of fans if educated are capable of understanding that these things should be penalized. But NBC is doing a horrific job educating fans.

 

[i love to skate]

But NBC is doing a horrific job educating fans.

exactly. Again, Dick Button last night was complaining for the millionth time about the "very complicated scoring system". With all the attention they gave to his ramblings and his ravings about Sasha they could have run three segments on the scoring system!

 

[Layfan]

That's not true. You can dictate to the audience how tough and difficult those triple jumps are. And you can dictate and explain to the audience that jumps are evaulated strictly for rotation edges because this is a technical sport and that its easier to do a cheated triple than it is to do a fully rotated triple jump.

The issue here is that the current comentators explained none of this and downplayed it too. And I seriously don't think that artistry is truly getting knocked down. Rachael has a hard time against skaters like Yu-na Kim even when Yu-na makes mistakes and Rachael-doesn't. Its just the issue here is that the US doesn't have a girl who is a strong technician and a strong artist. And I didn't hear anyone in the article saying Mirai's jumps were rotated they were just complaining about the rules.

However I suspect the skaters who follow the rules and worked hard at mastering fully rotated jumps are thankful that cheated jumps are no longer rewarded.

Well, hopefully young skaters everywhere are taking note and really working on their rotations. That will make skating a better sport. In the long term, I think the strictness of rotation calls could be good for the artistry of the sport. It will mean that skaters with blah artistry won't be rewarded for doing cheated triple triples. It will bring make the athleticism of the sports honest and harder to achieve. Sarah Hughes wasn't completely lacking in the artistry department but in the end I thought she was a forgettable skater who won with cheated 3-3. That wouldn't happen under CoP. On the other hand, I believe CoP needs to find a way to be harsher on ungraceful skating. Otherwise, skating will continue to lose fans even if they mail earbuds to every TV viewer in America. I can't be dictated or guilted into enjoying Rachael's skating. Just won't work for me.

 

[Mathman]

Which puts her in the same boat as Rachael.

What can I say? In my opinion, Mirai is in a boat that is a little bit ahead of Rachael's Interpretation boat. If Rachael is in the 7.75 boat then Mirai is in the 8.00 boat. Just my opinion, of course.

Where I think figure skating is suffering is that under the IJS I do not have a right to an opinion about these matters. All I can do is sit dumbly by and listen to the experts tell me which bullets and features skater X got credit for. ("You thought Mirai had good musical interpretation? Oh, you silly boy, go read ISU document #347263-(b).")

 

[bekalc]

exactly. Again, Dick Button last night was complaining for the millionth time about the "very complicated scoring system". With all the attention they gave to his ramblings and his ravings about Sasha they could have run three segments on the scoring system!

Exactly. Scott/Sandra's job is to sell the sport. I definetly have some issues (major!) issues with COP. But theres a level of basic fairness to making sure people jump from correct edges and making sure they rotate their jumps, making sure they get appropriate levels on foowork/spins too. That's only fair. These are things that makes this a credible sport. With the focus on better edges and skating skills we are seeing better skaters too. I'm not saying there aren't issues with the sport. But if the people commentating cannot find a reason to explain the system and yes sell the system to the viewers than they need people who can. Period.

 

[Layfan]

exactly. Again, Dick Button last night was complaining for the millionth time about the "very complicated scoring system". With all the attention they gave to his ramblings and his ravings about Sasha they could have run three segments on the scoring system!

I give Dick Button credit for sensing immediately that TV audiences needed to know that Mirai lost because of UR calls and explaining that to them. I could be wrong but I think he was the first person to mention that to NBC's audiences.

 

[Spun Silver]

Bekalc, your defense of correct scoring of jumps makes sense, but do you not believe that Mirai and other skaters work their butts off on the program components as well?

My problem isn't so much that Mirai's jumps got dinged -- although frankly if Scott Hamilton can't see a problem I have to believe the calls were questionable -- but that her superiority in other areas was not recognized. Or to put it as you did, how do you think it makes the girls feel who learned to skate beautifully and not just correctly?

Where is the incentive for Rachael and other technician types to develop themselves artistically? As far as I can see, the only incentive is if they'd like to be beloved by the general public. Their scores are not suffering at all.

I believe CoP needs to find a way to be harsher on ungraceful skating. Otherwise, skating will continue to lose fans even if they mail earbuds to every TV viewer in America. I can't be dictated or guilted into enjoying Rachael's skating. Just won't work for me.