I don't think you can have more than three jumps in a combo.
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Base values of quads and triple Axels raised, new 1/4-1/2 rule for under-rotations
- Thread starter Mathman
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I don't think you can have more than three jumps in a combo.
yeah, I can understand the BV of 3Lo being raised a little, but why the heck they lower that of 3F? and now the difference between 3T and 3S is just 0.1???
Does anyone know if these BV changes are actually based on some kind of statistics of success rate?
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- Nov 12, 2009
Maybe because the queen of figure skating doesn't do 3lo along with a lot of other people.
The nature of the errors are different, it's difficult to compare falling vs. UR directly. You could fall on a fully rotated jump, which means you have mastered the jump (e.g. Quad Flip) whereas the UR could mean the skater is not even close to mastering the required rotations to call the said jump a Quad or Triple. The latter could be a very serious consideration given that a Quad Toe is worth 10.3 whereas a Triple is only 4.1 If UR is not severely penalized, there would be a surge of bogus claims re: skaters who claim to be able to land Quads for example. Using an example, if a skater severely UR a Quad Toe attempt, it wouldn't be fair to give him 10.3 of BV - 3 for GOE - 1 for falling because that would equal 6.3, a value greater than the Triple Lutz even though the Quad is more like over rotated Triple Toe. If so, a program could be filled of bogus Quad attempts with 6 or 7 falls and still end up having a total TES equal to 6 or 7 Triple Lutzes combined. Clearly, I don't believe you think that makes any sense.
Sometimes a fall isn't as bad it seems. The encouragement should be focused on getting the skaters to learn the proper technique and fully rotate their jumps as opposed to encouraging gaming behavior. So to answer your question, yes, I think UR can be a much more serious problem than a fall.
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2005
You can have one combo consisting of 3 (listed) jumps and the other 2 (max) combos may only contain 2 (listed) jumps. With the 1/2 Lo now getting a value, a 3T+1(h)Lo+3S is considered your 3 jump combo pass.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Wally Lutz - Too much gobble de gook to explain a simple question. That's a lot of company support you are given to Falls. With sometimes can be. The issues of the URs and the Falls are quite clear.
Losing the last third of a 3part element is serious. A Fall on a jump is much more serious than landing a jump with an error. Clearly, I think you know that.
Not all errors are equal and you know that. Some are more serious than others. Fall is only one of many type of errors and it's not even an automatic -3 GOE, FYI, a common misconception, nonetheless, worth pointing out.
Just as you'd like to generalize that UR isn't as serious as a mistake compared to a fall - the answer is clear - it depends. Some falls, like Javier Fernandez's fall on his 4T in Vancouver was unfortunate but most people would agree it was a good attempt with full rotations. Sorry to say using your misguided logic, we may even be seeing Quad Axel attempts because falling on a 4A clearly wouldn't seem so bad given its 15 BV value -- more like 16.5 points if you do it during the 2nd half of the LP -- if UR or Downgrade doesn't serve as a deterrent to such attempt to game the system because the fall would only provide -3.6 in negative GOE + another -1 for mandatory fall, clearly a very small price to pay for such a big carrot.
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Yes and No. No, because the methodology hasn't changed compared to years past, 3-3 GOE is based on the most difficult jump in the combo. Yes, because the GOE for jumps have been mostly revised downward so it has more variation than before.
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2008
Well, the ISU at least listened. Their execution fails yet again, though.
Why did they decrease the -GOE for jumps????
If you fall on a Quad Toe, it's now worth 6.3 points.
Making the underrotation penalty less severe is good, but the way they implemented it is not perfect either.
Really, ISU, I've written entire detailed essays on exactly how you need to fix your system. It took you 4 years just to implement a lazy change to the way underrotated jumps are scored. You're not the United States Government. It shouldn't take so long to fix the judging system.
Why did they decrease the -GOE for jumps????
If you fall on a Quad Toe, it's now worth 6.3 points.
Making the underrotation penalty less severe is good, but the way they implemented it is not perfect either.
Really, ISU, I've written entire detailed essays on exactly how you need to fix your system. It took you 4 years just to implement a lazy change to the way underrotated jumps are scored. You're not the United States Government. It shouldn't take so long to fix the judging system.
I guess you will get used to it with time. We just need to see how different skates are scored and build a frame of references.
But you're right. You have very little hope of correctly scoring the skaters in your head unless you're Asian or Mathman
How about jumps that are fully rotated and landed on 2ft? So how will the new rules score Dice's 4f at Torinio worlds
I seriously doubt the BV change in the 3 lo is based on just one skater, whoever the so called "queen" maybe. If that is the case, the rules committee should increase marks for full extension with great amplitude on spirals.
I seriously doubt the BV change in the 3 lo is based on just one skater, whoever the so called "queen" maybe. If that is the case, the rules committee should increase marks for full extension with great amplitude on spirals.
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2.7 rotation in the air for an axel jump will be counted as a double axel
If a fall is severly penalized, then would it advance FS? We praise skaters' guts attempting extremely hard jumps such as 3a for women and 4 for men. Shouldn't we give them a break if we want to see more skaters attempting difficult jumps?
Full base mark, probably -2 GOE.
It wasn't fully rotated.
Say it gets the base< score for a quad flip (8.6) and straight -2 GOE (in 1.0 increments for quads, so 2.0).
So 6.6. More than a pretty good triple flip, less than a triple axel.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
That's very Orwellian of you. All people are equal but some are more equal than others.I'm not talking about the differences in an error. I'm talking about a complete loss of a part of an Element. If someone does not land a jump he has not completed the Element. That is tres serieux. I don't know why you can't grasp that.
If a skater attempts a spin but happens to skid and fall do you give partial credit for the attempt or a big nothing because there was no spin. It's a humongous mistake in the Element. There was NO SPIN. One has to look at an attempt to see if there was an element to judge. At least in the case we are discussing, it's just one part of an Element. Credit could be given for the two other parts.
Now... The Under Rotation means that the skater has landed the jump with an error. I think we can both agree on this, and I would say further that if the skater can continue with the FLOW of the program, the penalty could be less than automatic. And I can agree that within the context of a situation, errors can be penalized differently, but only if it is within a particular jump.
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