Adelina Sotnikova - flutz or not?
- Thread starter koheikun90
- Start date
Janet + Mao
I always felt Janet and Mao shared similarities in their skating styles. They are both so graceful and fluid on the ice. I find this especially true when I watched Janet's Afternoon of a Faun and Mao's Clair de Lune programs. They are one of the few skaters that did justice to Debussy.
I always felt Janet and Mao shared similarities in their skating styles. They are both so graceful and fluid on the ice. I find this especially true when I watched Janet's Afternoon of a Faun and Mao's Clair de Lune programs. They are one of the few skaters that did justice to Debussy.yes--she flutzes a little,
but sasha beating those girls in 1999, well they OVERLOOK HER MISTAKES, her flutzing, her wrong edge and her ur's
they didn't overlook michelle, jenny or naomi. in 2000 michelle made 3 mistakes and sasha didn't "supposedly make any" which infact she did but was overlook in 2000.
but adeline has a ways to grow and hopefully will fix those mistakes.
she has a bright future along with the other up-comer russian ladies, it is whichever russian girl
wants it and will skate for it. also which one the russian federation wants to push.
by the way adeline is way better than sasha at that age.
adeline as well as other ladies just need to natural mature with their music and feel the music and project it to audience.
but adeline has a bright future. yes she was overmarked in
but sasha beating those girls in 1999, well they OVERLOOK HER MISTAKES, her flutzing, her wrong edge and her ur's
they didn't overlook michelle, jenny or naomi. in 2000 michelle made 3 mistakes and sasha didn't "supposedly make any" which infact she did but was overlook in 2000.
but adeline has a ways to grow and hopefully will fix those mistakes.
she has a bright future along with the other up-comer russian ladies, it is whichever russian girl
wants it and will skate for it. also which one the russian federation wants to push.
by the way adeline is way better than sasha at that age.
adeline as well as other ladies just need to natural mature with their music and feel the music and project it to audience.
but adeline has a bright future. yes she was overmarked in
A better version of her LP.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFk5mz1qD6Q&feature=player_embedded#!
I like this music and her skating! She seems to have speed too.
She has TIME to work out the most correct edge, doesn't she?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFk5mz1qD6Q&feature=player_embedded#!
I like this music and her skating! She seems to have speed too.
She has TIME to work out the most correct edge, doesn't she?
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2009
Thanks for the video, she is even more impressive when you can see her movements clearly! Also, in this version you can tell that she has grown up some since last season, as her shoulders have broadened and her torso is now more proportional to the length of her legs. She is a star!
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2008
Just watched the new video - yes, she flutzes.
What's more disconcerting here, though, is that her Triple "Flip" in the program is not a Flip. It's a Lutz (well, a flutz). She holds the back glide too long after doing the turn and then pulls over to an outside edge (and then back to an inside edge) - that is NOT a Flip jump.
Adelina Sotnikova is doing two Lutzes in her SP, Elena Leonova is doing two Flips...this seriously needs to be stopped. The tech controller needs to call the jumps as being the same and the second one should get an automatic -3 GOE across the board (ideally there would be rules in place for this which impose an actual point deduction rather than messing with the GOE of the jump, though).
What's more disconcerting here, though, is that her Triple "Flip" in the program is not a Flip. It's a Lutz (well, a flutz). She holds the back glide too long after doing the turn and then pulls over to an outside edge (and then back to an inside edge) - that is NOT a Flip jump.
Adelina Sotnikova is doing two Lutzes in her SP, Elena Leonova is doing two Flips...this seriously needs to be stopped. The tech controller needs to call the jumps as being the same and the second one should get an automatic -3 GOE across the board (ideally there would be rules in place for this which impose an actual point deduction rather than messing with the GOE of the jump, though).
.Looks like she's nailed for the flutz
http://www.isuresults.com/results/jgpgbr2010/jgpgbr2010_JuniorLadies_SP_Scores.pdf
http://www.isuresults.com/results/jgpgbr2010/jgpgbr2010_JuniorLadies_FS_Scores.pdf
but why is the -GOE only -0.5? 2 seasons ago, for each flutz, Mao got -2 to -3, making the flutz worth less than a toe. They should take -3 in the SP, -6 for two in the LP.
Yasmin should have won. And Christina Gao should have won in Austria.
Who was the technical caller in Austria? What a horrible caller.
http://www.isuresults.com/results/jgpgbr2010/jgpgbr2010_JuniorLadies_SP_Scores.pdf
http://www.isuresults.com/results/jgpgbr2010/jgpgbr2010_JuniorLadies_FS_Scores.pdf
but why is the -GOE only -0.5? 2 seasons ago, for each flutz, Mao got -2 to -3, making the flutz worth less than a toe. They should take -3 in the SP, -6 for two in the LP.
Yasmin should have won. And Christina Gao should have won in Austria.
Who was the technical caller in Austria? What a horrible caller.
There are levels of flutzing. It can be blatant and obvious or questionable. FOr a lutz done in a combo you have to judge GOE based on the other jump as well so if a judge wanted to give a -3 for a flutz but then the second jump was perfectly fine well that has to be counted as well so that -3 may be changed to -2 or -1 and you have to factor in the entry and Sotnikova is tremendous all throughout programs in and out of jumps.
^ I thought of that, but it wouldn't be consistent with past results.
1. one solo flutz from the LP only got -0.6. Her flutz is really bad, like Mao Asada bad. It was a deep inside edge.
2. Patrick chan has all kind of interesting entrance into the jumps, but when he couldn't land them cleanly, those + bullets didn't help him get a -1. He still got -2 or -3.
3. What happened to mandatory -3 GOE on edge call?
1. one solo flutz from the LP only got -0.6. Her flutz is really bad, like Mao Asada bad. It was a deep inside edge.
2. Patrick chan has all kind of interesting entrance into the jumps, but when he couldn't land them cleanly, those + bullets didn't help him get a -1. He still got -2 or -3.
3. What happened to mandatory -3 GOE on edge call?
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2009
This is interesting because according to ISU Communications 1611 GOE for starting from wrong edge in F/Lz(sign "e"), for which the final GOE must be in the minus, the deduction is from -2 to -3. For "Unclear edge at take-off in F/Lz(sign "e")" for which the final GOE is not restricted, the deduction is from -1 to -2. In her protocol, it showed e, not e for the triple Lutz in Combo and by itself. However, 2 of the judges gave Adelina +1 GOE for the stand alone 3Lz. Are the judges informed about the edge calls this year??
Adelina FS.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Utt253GRpCA
1:29
Even the lady doing commentary thought her flip was a lutz.
She could potentially get ding for both lutz and flip like Yukari Nakano. Time to fix those technique.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Utt253GRpCA
1:29
Even the lady doing commentary thought her flip was a lutz.
She could potentially get ding for both lutz and flip like Yukari Nakano. Time to fix those technique.
But the technical caller called her flip a flip and there was no edge call. There was no problem with the flip. You shouldn't make up a problem with her flip! The issue is doing a lutz and then switching to flip at the last minute. Announcers are just that-they can miscall jumps all the time!
But her flip is a problem. It looks too much like a flutz. I'm not making up anything. It's odd looking. It's not normal. It's not pretty.
If mule kick is a problem then this faux flip is also a problem.
- Joined
- Nov 22, 2009
Haven't looked at the (f)lipping yet, but I think one could make a case that so far this season, Adelina's flutzing is either being overlooked or soft pedalled by the TC and/or judges. Compare to that other famous junior flutzer from last year: Kanako Murakami.
Kanako at 2009 Torun: SP, lutz in combo, "e" call, GOE all -1 to -2. LP, lutz solo, "e" call, GOE all -1 to -2.
Kanako at 2009 Zagreb: SP, lutz in combo, "e" call, GOE all -1 to -2. LP, lutz solo, "e" call, GOE all -1 to -2...but lots more -2's.
Kanako at 2009 Final: SP, left out the lutz entirely. LP, lutz solo, "e" call, GOE all -1 to -2.
Takeaway from this: Same execution error, with pretty consistent penalties applied across callers and judges.
Adelina at 2010 Graz: SP, lutz in combo, no call, GOE all 0 to +2. LP, lutz #1 in combo, no call, GOE all 0 to +2. Lutz #2 solo, no call, GOE all 0 to +2.
Adelina at 2010 Sheffield: SP, lutz in combo, "e" call, GOE 0 to -2 but 3T downgraded also. LP, lutz #1 in combo, "e" call, GOE -2 to -3 but 3Lo downgraded. Lutz #2 solo, "e" call, GOE +1 to -2. That's a huge range, with 3 judges giving her neutral or positive GOE's!
From the initial poor quality video that came out of Graz competition, I and plenty of others could see Adelina flutzing on the SP and LP lutz #2 (couldn't see for certain on LP lutz #1 combo), but she wasn't called on it. Looks like the tech caller at Sheffield had better eyes, and at least some of the judges. But yes, I'd say she's been "gently handled" compared to others. Not sure if I'd go so far put this down to some conspiracy theory though.
Kanako at 2009 Torun: SP, lutz in combo, "e" call, GOE all -1 to -2. LP, lutz solo, "e" call, GOE all -1 to -2.
Kanako at 2009 Zagreb: SP, lutz in combo, "e" call, GOE all -1 to -2. LP, lutz solo, "e" call, GOE all -1 to -2...but lots more -2's.
Kanako at 2009 Final: SP, left out the lutz entirely. LP, lutz solo, "e" call, GOE all -1 to -2.
Takeaway from this: Same execution error, with pretty consistent penalties applied across callers and judges.
Adelina at 2010 Graz: SP, lutz in combo, no call, GOE all 0 to +2. LP, lutz #1 in combo, no call, GOE all 0 to +2. Lutz #2 solo, no call, GOE all 0 to +2.
Adelina at 2010 Sheffield: SP, lutz in combo, "e" call, GOE 0 to -2 but 3T downgraded also. LP, lutz #1 in combo, "e" call, GOE -2 to -3 but 3Lo downgraded. Lutz #2 solo, "e" call, GOE +1 to -2. That's a huge range, with 3 judges giving her neutral or positive GOE's!
From the initial poor quality video that came out of Graz competition, I and plenty of others could see Adelina flutzing on the SP and LP lutz #2 (couldn't see for certain on LP lutz #1 combo), but she wasn't called on it. Looks like the tech caller at Sheffield had better eyes, and at least some of the judges. But yes, I'd say she's been "gently handled" compared to others. Not sure if I'd go so far put this down to some conspiracy theory though.
To be honest, I have no problem with flutzers. Some flutz can be really pretty.
What I have a problem with is the inconsistency. If you are going to call on one girl, you have to call on the other girls. If the judges saw an e mark, they have to follow ISU protocol. Give it a mandatory -2 or -3.
What I have a problem with is the inconsistency. If you are going to call on one girl, you have to call on the other girls. If the judges saw an e mark, they have to follow ISU protocol. Give it a mandatory -2 or -3.
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2010
I'm glad the technical specialist called the wrong edge this time. Adelina is a beautiful skater and despite the errors, she was still far superior than the rest of field.
Instead of calling flutzes and lips, why won't the ISU mandate that credit for a jump should be given by the edge the skater takes off in?
If a skater does two flutzes and a flip, then why not give credit for the two jumps taken from the inside edge as a flip and call the 3rd jump an invalid element?
Instead of calling flutzes and lips, why won't the ISU mandate that credit for a jump should be given by the edge the skater takes off in?
If a skater does two flutzes and a flip, then why not give credit for the two jumps taken from the inside edge as a flip and call the 3rd jump an invalid element?
- Joined
- Sep 22, 2010
Because it's the take-off edge that differentiates one jump from another.* For all jumps, the landing edge is an outside edge. So landing a flutz on an outside edge doesn't mean it's a valid lutz. Wrong take-off edge doesn't "invalidate" a jump (I don't know what you mean by that). In fact, it's not even given a mandatory negative GOE anymore. But if a flip is an inside edge and a lutz an outside edge, then no skater should get credit for a lutz if they actually executed a flip (inside edge). It's only fair to get credit for what you actually did, isn't? I mean, if a burger by definition contains a beef patty but you give me chicken, is it OK to call it burger? Isn't it correct to call it a chicken sandwich?
*Technically, it's not just the outside edge that differentiates a lutz from a flip, but it is one of the key defining features. The other key distinguishing feature is that the momentum of the entrance to the lutz is counter to the direction of the rotation.
