How much should U.S. Nationals count for World team selection? | Page 13 | Golden Skate

How much should U.S. Nationals count for World team selection?

I feel that I need to clarify something- again. No matter what system you propose- and no matter how you do the selection- you will ALWAYS have skatefans on your tail. Fans of the skater who got cut off the team, and felt like she should be on, will raise a stink. Nonfans who disagree with the analysis of the Committee will raise a stink. I mean, look how much hullabaloo was created over the results of the past two Nationals- and we're talking about the JUDGING here. Not the selection process!

I assume that the point of this thread, the reason it was started in the first place, was to inspire a discussion/debate on how much of a factor Nationals should be in the decision-making process for the US World Team. We all know how it is. But just because they do it a certain way doesn't mean it's the optimal way, or that it should be "their way or the highway". Many posters agree with the decision to let Nationals be the Oly Trials or World Team Trials, and that's fine. I think if USFS is going to do that, at least in non-Oly years they should make that clear in the rules. The issue is that they claim they factor in other events, when it doesn't seem like it's the case. So the point I (and Joe, and maybe a couple others) have been making is how to use those other competitions to clear any confusion over whether the top 2 at Nationals is comprised of our strongest team. Some may not even care about "strongest team" and may just say, "send the top 2 or 3 no matter what" which, again, is fine. My point is, if we want three spots back, with our current depth in ladies, depending on the night, the TOP 2 may not translate to the BEST 2 when you factor in results from the past year. The debate is whether we want the TOP 2 or the BEST 2 at worlds. YMMV. Many times they'll be one and the same. But what about the moments they are not?
 
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Another example -- I really was not surprised that Caroline Zhang ended up the highest placing US lady at 2009 Four Continents in Vancouver because both Alissa Czisny and Rachael Flatt were likely still recovering physically and mentally from Nationals that had ended just over one week earlier, …………

….. and Caroline was well rested and fresh as a daisy.

I was not surprised at Alissa’s showing at 4CC. At Nationals I saw Rachael and Caroline ( in either order ) give the best performances, with Alissa not doing as well. And that’s what happened at 4CC.

……… whereas Zhang had the extra motivation to do well at Four Continents because it was the final competition of her season (at that time she didn't yet know that she would be competing at World Team Trophy in April). ……..

I don’t see that any of the 3 had much motivation. Alissa’s and Rachael’s places on the World team were secure. Caroline was off the team. None of them really had anything to gain or lose.
 
None of them really had anything to gain or lose.

To me, they all had something to win or lose -- Four Continents. If they didn't care about winning or losing they should have stayed home.

The debate is whether we want the TOP 2 or the BEST 2 at worlds. YMMV. Many times they'll be one and the same. But what about the moments they are not?

I vote for the top 2. The reason is, the "best 2" according to whose opinion?
 
I don’t see that any of the 3 had much motivation. Alissa’s and Rachael’s places on the World team were secure. Caroline was off the team. None of them really had anything to gain or lose.
If none of the three ladies really had anything to gain or lose, then I guess their final placement order wasn't very significant after all?

However, I forgot to mention earlier that there was an extra incentive for the top 3 2009 US Nationals finishers in each discipline to compete at 2009 Four Continents -- it was an invaluable opportunity to skate in the 2010 Olympics rink venue. So it was quite possible that some of the skaters assigned to 2009 Worlds would have chosen to skip 4CC had it been held in Asia and not in Vancouver.
 
...the "best 2" according to whose opinion?

There you go. The point is to let the statistics decide, and not let shady bias get in the way. This is the whole point of the current scoring system, is it not?
 
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To me, they all had something to win or lose -- Four Continents. If they didn't care about winning or losing they should have stayed home.

Fair enough.

If none of the three ladies really had anything to gain or lose, then I guess their final placement order wasn't very significant after all?

My point is that the motivation of the 3 ladies was similar. Caroline did not come out on top of Team USA because she was more motivated. I see no reason to think she was.
 
If Zhang wanted to make that world team she should have done better at Nats...simple. She peaked a bit too late. Again, though, there's that whole argument as to whether she should have been sent anyway, but that horse is long dead.
 
If Zhang wanted to make that world team she should have done better at Nats...simple. She peaked a bit too late. Again, though, there's that whole argument as to whether she should have been sent anyway, but that horse is long dead.

Still, Polymer Bob raises a point that cannot be lightly dismissed by those of us who want U.S. Nationals to be do-or-die. What about the judging and the calls of the tech specialists at Nationals.

In 2009, Czisny won the champoionship mainly on the strength of her GOEs, especially on non-jump elements. Here are the total GOEs for the long and the short programs.

SP: Alissa 5.58
Rachael 1.98
Caroline 1.73

LP: Alissa 5.68
Rachael -0.45
Caroline -0.12

OK, that's fair enough, if you look at the actual performances.

Now for the PCSs. In the short program Alissa got 27.77 for an average of 6.94. In the LP, with the same panel of judges, she got a whopping 60.63 -- an average of 7.58. That was the ball game.

So the question is, was Alissa's LP, with three bad mistakes including a fall and a doubled jump, really that much better than her own near-perfect short program? (Actually, it might have been . Dr. Zhivago was :love: )
 
Rachael Flatt gave her worst performance ever at 2009 Nationals. In terms of artistry/performance anyway. It was void of anything interesting at all. She did 6 Triples cleanly but everything else was far below Alissa. Caroline Zhang was also very blank and boring in her performance as well (with better spins than Flatt but worse jumps). Alissa deserved to win.
 
in the ladies division, 2009 Nats was a pretty dismal comp in general, anyway. The 2008 and 2010 events were much better skated, overall.

With no real frontrunner, 2011 may turn out like 2009 though...I really hope everybody brings it.
 
My last word on this topic. Would you believe it?

The present rule depicts the the winner of the Nationals to be automatically a part of the Worlds Team. Is that ok with you?
For the Ladies, there is only one skater that can get a 2nd place at the Nats. Will she bring in the required points at the Worlds to allow 3 ladies to be on the Team next year? Does that matter to you?

Is the 2nd place Lady at the Nats strong enough competitor to do her job, or is it just being fair to the silver medalist since getting 3 spots at the Worlds is not impotant?

The other method of selecting the Team is to have a review panel to decide who among the Ladies is consistent and good under fire irregardless of the in-house-Nats, and has shown good skating at the GPs.

We have two top skaters in the GPFinals coming up shortly. Do you consider this as a non factor in deciding the best method to select a Worlds Team?

and finally, we will be reading all the 'should have sent so and so' after the Worlds results. Will we have 2 or 3 entrants next year?

I have my idea of who would be best for selecting the Worlds Team, but I am also aware of the 'slippery sport factor'. If any skater bombs at the Nats, those skaters should not make the team.
 
Rachael Flatt gave her worst performance ever at 2009 Nationals. In terms of artistry/performance anyway. It was void of anything interesting at all. She did 6 Triples cleanly but everything else was far below Alissa. Caroline Zhang was also very blank and boring in her performance as well (with better spins than Flatt but worse jumps). Alissa deserved to win.
You seem to be of the opinion that Performance is more important than Sport. Nothing wrong with that but some of us see FS as a Sport as well.
 
Two international comps - Euros and 4CCs should not be considered in a selection for a World Team. Neither represents the World with their limited entrants.
 
The other method of selecting the Team is to have a review panel to decide who among the Ladies is consistent and good under fire irregardless of the in-house-Nats, and has shown good skating at the GPs.

Now I'm not sure how I feel about that. I think that the Nats should at least hold SOME weight because it's the one time where the pressure is on for all Americans.

We have two top skaters in the GPFinals coming up shortly. Do you consider this as a non factor in deciding the best method to select a Worlds Team?

Personally, I don't.

and finally, we will be reading all the 'should have sent so and so' after the Worlds results. Will we have 2 or 3 entrants next year?

We'll have to stay tuned.
 
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