How do you penalize falls?

[Tonichelle]

In 1995, Elvis Stojko fell in his long program during the quad attempt. I cannot find the video--but I remember the first judge (a non-Canadian!) awarding him a 6.0 for technical merit.

they blinked and missed the fall... he got up really really fast...







what? it could happen!

 

[gkelly]

BTW, despite falling on the flying sitspin Janet did get a 6.0 for presentation. The judge later said it was such beauftiful skating and deserved a 6.0. :yes:

But I would have given a 5.9

I see that that judge also gave 5.9/5.9 to Karen Magnussen.

I don't know what the skate order was, but if Magnussen skated earlier, a 6.0 was necessary to put Lynn ahead in the free skate.

Not that it made enough difference to reverse their standings from the school figures, for the reasons Mathman mentions.

 

[doubleflutz]

If two judges were dropped at random before the competition, one high and one low judge was dropped after the skate, and the rest were averaged...people would still complain because their favortite didn't win.

That's bad statistics, actually. If the IJS/COP is supposed to represent an assessment of a skater's performance against some absolute and empirical standard, not just a relative ranking, the more judges contribute their scores the more accurate it will be. All the dropping of judges and averaging is silly, flies right in the face of all the arguments about cost-savings in ISU competitions/championships, and the way the highest and lowest scores are dropped could actually make it easier to collude. The rules that brought about the rise of the corridor are also flawed. Punishing judges for marks outside of the mainstream doesn't automatically prevent bad or biased judging, sometimes it causes bad or biased judging to become mainstream.

 

[janetfan]

they blinked and missed the fall... he got up really really fast...

what? it could happen!

Anything is possible at Skate Canada

 

[Tonichelle]

Anything is possible at Skate Canada

meh. I'm not anti the Canucks. weird judging is the norm in this sport. I don't know if figure skating could handle a completely fair/unbiased event.

 

[janetfan]

meh. I'm not anti the Canucks. weird judging is the norm in this sport. I don't know if figure skating could handle a completely fair/unbiased event.

And I also don't know if the event with Elvis was at Skate Canada.
But you have to admit if you had to make a quick guess.........

I mostly think of Canadian skaters the same way I do about American skaters. I always root for them. This season Chan's results have rubbed "many posters" the wrong way.
(seniorita, go read the SC or COR board if you want exact names of the "many" - and you will find yourself there so you are now part of "many" and mathman too

 

[Layfan]

To answer the thread topic question, I'm not sure, the only thing I am 200% sure about is that I do not like falls whatsoever, doesn't matter whence it comes from nor how many times it happens (e.g. 1,2,3 et al). A Fall is a fall is a fall, and I really hate it, I'll even get up & leave sometimes when a fall happens, that's how much it affects my enjoyment of the skating.

My only saving grace as regards figure skating is that I cannot recall an Olympic Champion having ever won with a fall. Thank God, seriously. Except I think Kristi Yamaguchi did, but so did her nearest competitor Midori Ito, so in that case it all equals out. But the point is that the very highest pinnacle/honor awarded to a skater requires a skater to skate clean, as it should be. Yes, 2nd & 3rd place allow for falls, but NEVER 1st place (unless the top 2 both fall, which is really rare). I can live with that.

And really the truly great skaters throughout history do not fall, and that hasn't changed, nor do I expect it to. Winners come & go, but champions last forever (ala Henie, Grafstrom, Plushenko).

Well, it would have been a real shame to get up and leave after Midori's fall during her first 3a attempt at the 1992 Olympics because she went on to throw in an impromptu 3a in the last seconds of her program. She made history by becoming the first lady to land a 3a at an Olympics - and it was good enough to vault from fourth to second place.

In case you have never watched it or really did get up and leave, here you go - one of the coolest, fiercest moments in Olympic skating history:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mR4LE4Ga5Ks&feature=related

 

[Tonichelle]

And I also don't know if the event with Elvis was at Skate Canada.
But you have to admit if you had to make a quick guess.........

I wouldn't be surprised if it were a north american judge, sure, but I wouldn't guess right off that it was at Skate Canada.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

According to the scriptures, the judging should only take place at the time of their competion. No past sins or blessings are permitted. That's the way of all judging. If a judge has to go back on a previous comp, that judge should not be in the game. If we talk about being fair, then what a skater does at that and only that comp should be judged. Otherwise it is a fault of judging.

 

[Nadine]

I posted earlier today, then come back this evening, and I see that my post has been taken out of context by a few posters.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out what I meant, so I won't bother explaining.

Rather, I will just repost in its entirety my original post:

To answer the thread topic question, I'm not sure, the only thing I am 200% sure about is that I do not like falls whatsoever, doesn't matter whence it comes from nor how many times it happens (e.g. 1,2,3 et al). A Fall is a fall is a fall, and I really hate it, I'll even get up & leave sometimes when a fall happens, that's how much it affects my enjoyment of the skating.

My only saving grace as regards figure skating is that I cannot recall an Olympic Champion having ever won with a fall. Thank God, seriously. Except I think Kristi Yamaguchi did, but so did her nearest competitor Midori Ito, so in that case it all equals out. But the point is that the very highest pinnacle/honor awarded to a skater requires a skater to skate clean, as it should be. Yes, 2nd & 3rd place allow for falls, but NEVER 1st place (unless the top 2 both fall, which is really rare). I can live with that.

And really the truly great skaters throughout history do not fall, and that hasn't changed, nor do I expect it to. Winners come & go, but champions last forever (ala Henie, Grafstrom, Plushenko).

C'est la vie. This coming from a fan that has seen one of her all-time favorites fall more times than she cares to remember. :think:

 

[Nadine]

p.s. and just for the record, I've never gotten up & left during an Oksana Baiul performance, even today, knowing a fall is part of the program, lol. Seriously, she's my all-time favorite for a reason, and it's not because of the falls. She's magical, delightful, truly a gift from God. In fact it brings to mind what Galina Zmeivskaya once said about her:

"God gives many performers physical talent...He usually forgets to give them the soul of an artist...He gave Oksana everything."

 

[doubleflutz]

I posted earlier today, then come back this evening, and I see that my post has been taken out of context by a few posters.

No, you're just wrong, and your view of skating as a sport is rather bizarre to me. Your endless hyperbole and enthusiasm towards every skater ever is quite adorable, though, so cheers.

 

[blue dog]

Anything is possible at Skate Canada

LoL It was Worlds in Birmingham! The NBC commentator pointed out that Judge #1 rewarded Stojko for the attempt, and not necessarily the success of the quad, since he was the only competitor attempting the quad that year. But, then again, he did do a triple lutz/triple toe towards the end of the program, so to some, the fall on the quad wasn't disruptive.

There are other falls, however, that are very disruptive:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swMugi75xB0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhfFaKWA0Ek
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_BFYZPuqEA

 

[Nadine]

Hi, doubleflutz, I'm not here to argue, rather just to give my opinion, as you & everybody else here has done.

In the end, it's just skating, which I love, but it's not my life. And I don't pretend to presume my opinion means jack in the grand scheme of things, because I know it doesn't, yet it feels good to say what I feel even if nobody's listening.

So thanks for listening, and have a great Christmas, I honestly mean that. Myself, I'm hyped, only 17 more days until Christmas! arty:

And of course I can't leave this thread without closing with the following:

MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL THE SKATERS, AND I HOPE YOU "ALL" SKATE CLEAN WITHOUT FALLS, SO WE WON'T HAVE TO HAVE THESE KINDS OF DISCUSSIONS, LOL!!!!

 

[brianjyw]

No points for a fall may sound logical but I just don't like to have a fall penalized more than it is now lest we end up with many skaters attempting 2-2 instead of 3-3 or 3a. Besides, under CoP top skaters get more severe penalty for a fall than just the mandatory deductible. They not only get - goe but also lose an opportunity to get + goe. So a top skater could lose 5 to 6 points right then and there on TES with a fall. I didn't even consider possible deductions from PCS.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

If we are talking about esthetics, there is nothing like a no fall cleanprogram. A champion will do just that, and be competitive as well.

 

[Mathman]

The way the CoP is set up, every little thing earns a tenth of a point. You get partial credit for any kind of attempt.

Still, I think that somewhere there has to be a lowest common denominator where you draw the line and just say no. Sorry, close but no cigar. It that line isn't falling down, I don't know where else to draw it.