What do you want to see at Worlds ...Ladies

[YunaBliss]

Serious Business is correct, but I've been saying that same thing for 5 years now. ISU will likely take another 5 years to realize "hey, we need to give bonuses to combinations so that these difficult moves are properly rewarded." And after finally arriving at this conclusion, they will implement it poorly with some kind of across-the-board bonus or something that doesn't specifically take into account the difficulty of each combination.

Also, I'm tired of reading about what Yu-Na's jump layout will be. So I'm just going to tell you what it is:

3Lutz-3Toe
3Flip
3Sal-2Toe
----------
2Axel-2Toe-2Loop
3Lutz
3Sal
2Axel

I, too, cannot believe Yuna is not doing her trademark 2A-3T. Are you sure about this BoP?? If this is right, I guess she really doesn't want to do 3Loop?

Sigh, the more I think and read about the rule changes, I cannot help but think the rules were changed to "tame" Yuna... just like they used to drastically length golf courses to tame Tiger Woods' domination years back.

 

[OS]

Serious Business is correct, but I've been saying that same thing for 5 years now. ISU will likely take another 5 years to realize "hey, we need to give bonuses to combinations so that these difficult moves are properly rewarded." And after finally arriving at this conclusion, they will implement it poorly with some kind of across-the-board bonus or something that doesn't specifically take into account the difficulty of each combination.

Also, I'm tired of reading about what Yu-Na's jump layout will be. So I'm just going to tell you what it is:
<snip spoiler>

Dude.. seriously, that wasn't cool. :sheesh:

I know you have been lucky to have witnessed her program before she is ready to reveal it to the public, but knowing the history of how she'd like to keep everything under wrap (include recent media hurrahs over the reveal or arirang, and Japanese TV snooping), you sure have spoilt the nice surprise for everyone.

On the outset it might not seem biggie to you, but surely as fan of the sport who appear to be respectful and familiar with the skaters and their pet peeves, you should have known better? You have just spoilt the plot for an exciting thriller many have been looking forward to discover for themselves for months, and cheated what should have been the performer's privilege alone. Seems hardly fair to me.

Not happy about this at all!! :disapp:

 

[Krislite]

Dude.. seriously, that wasn't cool. :sheesh:

I know you have been lucky to have witnessed her program before she is ready to reveal it to the public, but knowing the history of how she'd like to keep everything under wrap (include recent media hurrahs over the reveal or arirang, and Japanese TV snooping), you sure have spoilt the nice surprise for everyone.

On the outset it might not seem biggie to you, but surely as fan of the sport who appear to be respectful and familiar with the skaters and their pet peeves, you should have known better? You have just spoilt the plot for an exciting thriller many have been looking forward to discover for themselves for months, and cheated what should have been the performer's privilege alone having worked so hard for months. Seems hardly fair to me.

Not happy about this at all!! :disapp:

Maybe she will surprise us all by doing something else. Jump layouts are hardly set in set stone anyways, and every good skater practices "back-up" layouts. If you're lucky, Blades saw the "back-up" and not the original. Or perhaps Blades is misleading us, giving us a false jump layout.

 

[jatale]

I'm also not happy about BOP's reveal of Yu-Na's jump layout or what BOP claims is her jump layout. I'm assuming that anyone who has really witnessed it in practice was sworn to a vow of secrecy, so I have my doubts about BOP's claims. In any event, it wasn't cool. Besides, it is interesting to speculate about it until we all get to see it at Worlds.

 

[jiggs]

I don't get why this is such a big deal. It's just a jump layout

 

[jatale]

... Sigh, the more I think and read about the rule changes, I cannot help but think the rules were changed to "tame" Yuna... just like they used to drastically length golf courses to tame Tiger Woods' domination years back.

You might be right. Yu-Na reached a new level in ladies skating and the old rules really rewarded her for it. Perhaps the PTB (powers that be) decided that 20-point blowouts were not good for the sport. This is a big mistake IMO, because Yu-Na has brought a renewed level of excitement to ladies skating and she is pushing the entire ladies field to up their game. Any revised scoring system should reward the combination of athleticism and artistry embodied by Yu-Na while also rewarding the 3A appropriately for its difficulty. The new scoring system, however, might be more focused on the later than the former.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Serious Business is correct, but I've been saying that same thing for 5 years now. ISU will likely take another 5 years to realize "hey, we need to give bonuses to combinations so that these difficult moves are properly rewarded." And after finally arriving at this conclusion, they will implement it poorly with some kind of across-the-board bonus or something that doesn't specifically take into account the difficulty of each combination.

I think one of the reason we don't see the bonuses is that simply speaking it actually places even MORE emphasis on the jumps and we trend back to a time where everything else doesn't matter.

 

[Mathman]

About the 2A-3T combo, I think the reason for the popularity of that element was because it is the only way that a lady can do a seven triple program without a triple-triple or a triple Axel. 7 jumping passes to do 7 triples and an Axel. I believe that Akiko Suzuki did seven-triple programs like that.

However, trying to do seven triples and the full complement of triples (minus 3A) does not seem to be a goal any more. (Michelle Kwan did it eleven times in her career, but a couple of times used eight jumping passes.) Under the CoP there is no particular advantage in displaying the full range of triples, and the new rules make it hard to gain much by doubling up on the 2A and an extra triple toe.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think one of the reason we don't see the bonuses is that simply speaking it actually places even MORE emphasis on the jumps and we trend back to a time where everything else doesn't matter.

We will never see anything NEW and worthy of a bonus because there is no base value for it.

 

[Serious Business]

About the 2A-3T combo, I think the reason for the popularity of that element was because it is the only way that a lady can do a seven triple program without a triple-triple or a triple Axel. 7 jumping passes to do 7 triples and an Axel. I believe that Akiko Suzuki did seven-triple programs like that.

That used to be true, but now we're seeing a lot of top skaters do programs with 6 triples that nonetheless include a 2axel/3toe. For instance, both Mirai Nagasu and Miki Ando only do 6 triples, but both attempt a 2axel/3toe regularly in the FS. And since both Mirai and Miki are only comfortable with doing 4 of the 5 triples (Mirai lacks the 3sal, and Miki's 3flip has been iffy ever since she fixed her lip... that came out wrong...), it would not be possible for them to do a 7 triple program anyway. The reason they do a 2a/3toe combo is so they can cram in the most jumps possible (this way they get to repeat 2 triples and repeat 2 2axels without using any sequences). That's a reason I didn't think of when writing my previous post.

But the increased GOE scale of values is still relevant. By adding a 3toe to an easier jump like 2a rather than say, a 3lutz, they actually increase the GOE they can get. For instance, Yuna's planned jump layout that Blades of Passion leaked suffers in comparison because of this. Only 5 of her jumping passes uses the +2.1 scale of values GOE, while 6 of the jumping passes of both Miki and Mirai uses the +2.1 scale. In fact, it might be strategically advantageous for Yuna to switch her combos around so that she's doing a 3lutz/2toe/2loop and a 2axel/3toe instead even though that's easier! Again that's not very fair.

The goal of a 7 triple program also doesn't apply to Mao Asada, who plans a 2axel/3toe in her FS. Yes, she plans a 7 triple program. But because one of those triples is the triple axel, she doesn't need to do a 2axel. She could do a 7 triple program with a solo 3toe or a 3toe/2loop combo. In fact, given how often the 3toe on her 2axel/3toe gets the UR call, she should have switched it to a 3toe/2loop combo. The 3t/2l is worth 6.49, while the 2a/3t with a UR call is worth 6.82. But the latter comes with negative GOE, while the former has a shot at +GOE. Or even better, she should switch it to a 3loop/2loop combo. That has a higher base value than the UR 2a/3t, is a combo she's landed in the past, and with her current planned jumps she has room to repeat one more triple. Oh well, she never asked me.

 

[museksk8r]

It's interesting that Yu-Na is repeating the Salchow when I have always thought that was one of her more unsteady jumps. She has had flaws with it at 2010 Worlds, 2009 Worlds, 2008 Worlds, and 2007 Worlds, just to give examples.

 

[breeze]

SeriousBusiness, thanks for pointing that out. I've always thought combination jumps should be rewarded more, but never thought about the GOE effect. That also leaves me wonder about Yuna's jump layout BoP mentioned. I can understand she wants to avoid 3L and repeat a triple jump other than 3T, but why 3Sal? Why not 3Flip? Historically she didn't gain much +GOE for her Sal compared to other jumps.
And I have one more (possibly very dumb) question - if she had more training on 3Sal so that she is confident about gaining points from them, why couldn't she do the 3L instead? I know it caused her hip problems, but is the mechanism for Loop and Salchow that much different? I've never skated in my life and have no idea about this, so skaters and older fans on the board please enlighten me.

 

[Mathman]

But the increased GOE scale of values is still relevant. By adding a 3toe to an easier jump like 2a rather than say, a 3lutz, they actually increase the GOE they can get. For instance, Yuna's planned jump layout that Blades of Passion leaked suffers in comparison because of this.

I think it is very difficult to guess how questions of this sort play out in the CoP. For instance, I would expect that if Yu-na replaces 3Lz+3T and 2A with 2A+3T and 3Lz, then her scores in Interpretation, Transitions, etc. will go down, not to mention the GOE on her step sequence. The judges will say, Yu-na regressed from last year, she's not the skater she once was.

Case in point: last year, as long as she landed that 3Lz+3T she always got great GOEs on her ordinary-at-best spiral sequence.

 

[Serious Business]

museksk8r and breeze, Yuna has been consistently planning and landing the 3sal in exhibitions in the last season and this one. Although if I recall she did have the 3sal in gala numbers the past few seasons and still had problems with it in competition. Well, at least she probably won't screw up both her 3sal attempts?

breeze, I'm not a skater either the mechanism for the 3loop is very different from the 3sal. It's the only jump that concentrates the pressure on the right hip. Yuna was injured from it, so she didn't train it and isn't comfortable doing it now (she might add it back in the future).

I think it is very difficult to guess how questions of this sort play out in the CoP. For instance, I would expect that if Yu-na replaces 3Lz+3T and 2A with 2A+3T and 3Lz, then her scores in Interpretation, Transitions, etc. will go down, not to mention the GOE on her step sequence. The judges will say, Yu-na regressed from last year, she's not the skater she once was.

You have a point about how it might affect her PCS, even though she should still land the 3lutz/3toe in the SP. By doing a 3lutz/3toe in the FS though she'd be showing off the most difficult combo jump in senior ladies (no one else seems to have a 3lutz/3loop planned). So strategically, it may not be the wrong choice.

But still, why should there be this guesswork? Shouldn't the COP be codifying this for certain? It's still true that the maximum GOE Yuna can get on her jumping passes are less than those of Miki and Mirai because the M&Ms use the 2axel/3toe instead. And the scale of it matters. If Yuna gets +++ on both her 3lutz/3toe and solo 2axel and say, Miki gets a ++ on her 2axel/3toe and +++ on her 3lutz, the difference in GOE earned is only .1 more for Yuna even though Yuna has done the harder jumping passes and done them better! That we know for sure.

But I do now agree that Yuna should show off her 3lutz/3toe in the FS. She is good enough to win without over worrying about the numbers, and she should show off her biggest trick if only for her and the audience's satisfaction.

Once again I reserve the blame for the ISU's decision against rewarding combos.

 

[3Lz+3Lo]

I just hope for Miki, Mao, and Yuna to dotheir best and cleanest program as a good finish of the year... Hopefully with considerable judging.
And if Miki lands her 3Lz3Lo, I have nothing else to say

 

[Mathman]

^ Thanks for joining us, 3Lz+3Lo. Welcome to the forum. Post often, post long.

Go Miki!

 

[Blades of Passion]

I think one of the reason we don't see the bonuses is that simply speaking it actually places even MORE emphasis on the jumps and we trend back to a time where everything else doesn't matter.

If implemented correctly this would not be the case. You just need to decrease the base value of jumps to compensate for the bonuses received, so that it's level. This also ties into Long Programs needing to have options for which elements to include. If bonuses for combinations were appropriate and skaters only had to do a minimum of two 2-jump combinations, then we wouldn't be seeing very many relatively easy Triple-double-double combinations and 2Axel-double-double combinations. Three-jump combinations would mainly be attempted if it was something like a Triple-Triple-Double, because the bonus for that would be appropriately higher.

I, too, cannot believe Yuna is not doing her trademark 2A-3T. Are you sure about this BoP?? If this is right, I guess she really doesn't want to do 3Loop?

Sigh, the more I think and read about the rule changes, I cannot help but think the rules were changed to "tame" Yuna... just like they used to drastically length golf courses to tame Tiger Woods' domination years back.

Definitely no 3Loop, as far as I know. The rule changes (at least in this regard) were fair, though. We don't need to see that many Double Axels in a program and jumps were gaining too many points for GOE.

Sorry to all who feel spoiled by the information but Worlds will be here soon and you'll be hearing practice reports about her jump layout anyway. I feel fine giving information about that aspect of her program at this juncture; it's not like there is much time left now for other competitors to take the information and start training drastic changes to their own programs. What I saw could change as well (I really doubt the 3Loop, though...haven't even seen her practice it).

 

[jaylee]

I think it is very difficult to guess how questions of this sort play out in the CoP. For instance, I would expect that if Yu-na replaces 3Lz+3T and 2A with 2A+3T and 3Lz, then her scores in Interpretation, Transitions, etc. will go down, not to mention the GOE on her step sequence. The judges will say, Yu-na regressed from last year, she's not the skater she once was.

Yu-Na is not replacing her 3Lz/3T, which is her hardest and most consistent element, and it'll be the hardest combination with the greatest chance of success of any of the podium contenders (Miki hasn't had any 3/3s ratified this season, and Mao and Rachael haven't attempted any that I can recall), so I don't see this scenario happening. Now, you may have a point that PCS has an unofficial relation to technical content (hence a men's skater with superb components but doesn't have a 3A is penalized via PCS), but that doesn't apply here when Yu-Na is still keeping her 3/3 and very few of the top ladies have gotten anything beyond a 2A/3T or a 3T/3T ratified this season.

Case in point: last year, as long as she landed that 3Lz+3T she always got great GOEs on her ordinary-at-best spiral sequence.

The execution of Yu-Na's 3/3 has never had anything to do with the GOE she got on her "ordinary-at-best" spiral sequence, or any of her other elements. Case in point, Yu-Na's 2007 Worlds SP, which set a world record and received a +2.00 in GOE for her 3F/3T...but a mere 0.43 in GOE for her spiral sequence. Which was fair because her spiral sequence as executed was shaky and her injuries and conditioning that season had significantly affected her extension (and thus was reflected in the relatively low GOE that she got on that element all during 2006-2007).

The next season, healthy, she really worked on her extension and improved the spiral sequence, and it showed--and her GOE went up from the season before, even when she missed her 3/3 as she did at the 2007 Cup of China SP and the 2007 GPF SP. By 2008 Cup of China, she hit her peak GOE for the spiral at +2.00 and it remained a strong element for her since then as opposed to a weak one in 2006.

There are many skaters who have "ordinary-at-best" spiral sequences (if you judge strictly based on extension) and received high GOE for them, and they did not have a 3Lz/3T that Yu-Na did. See Joannie Rochette in the Olympics SP, Laura Lepisto and Miki Ando at the Olympics LP; Miki Ando at the 2011 4CCs LP where she received the same GOE as Mao Asada for the choreographed spiral sequence. This is a reflection of the rules system that awards GOE based on a number of qualities that aren't limited to extension, and all of those skaters fulfill the criteria for it in different ways.

If you think the system should be changed to focus more on position than any other qualities of a spiral, okay, but that is a separate argument, and has nothing to do with Yu-Na's GOE. Btw, she did not get the highest GOE on spirals or footwork at the Olympics; Mao did. And Mao, despite not completing any 3/3 or any 3A attempt, still received the highest GOE for her footwork at 2010 TEB, so again, I don't see why GOE for non-jump elements should go up or down depending on what jumps are executed. Many more examples like this exist.

 

[OS]

Sorry to all who feel spoiled by the information but Worlds will be here soon and you'll be hearing practice reports about her jump layout anyway. I feel fine giving information about that aspect of her program at this juncture; it's not like there is much time left now for other competitors to take the information and start training drastic changes to their own programs. What I saw could change as well (I really doubt the 3Loop, though...haven't even seen her practice it).

What's done is done.

For the record, I am a fan of your posts BoP, and really appreciate reading everyone's insight on this thought-provoking thread, but I'd like to request you to please be considerate and respect skater's wishes to keep everything wrapped up and refrain from disclosing any more details on the program until the actual championship.

It is already public knowledge Team Yuna have been deliberately trying to keep everything from the public (yes even tease us about it), to the point of issuing press conferences that they don't intent to disclose the music, the costumes until the dress rehearsals of WC. ie/World, you just have to wait and tune in!!

It is one thing to have accidently blurted it out, but another to completely disregard skater's wishes for what, because 'you are fine' with it? What about the skaters who worked so hard for months to bring us so much entertainment and things to talk about? Or skating fans who at least like to be surprised gearing up to the big show down? We already envy you, don't make us hate you

 

[R.D.]

Honestly y'all, I don't see the big deal...

Only thing would be if they publicly expressed wishes for it NOT to be released, and it was. Besides, it's so close to Worlds anyway.