Bradley wants to 'bring home some hardware'

[ImaginaryPogue]

There have been some great programs under the CoP. However, I would argue that there had been more originality in the choreogaphy under the old system. I think the difference is that under CoP, the programs more or less look the same most of the time. But under the old system, skaters had fewer restrictions and thus tended to highlight their particular strengths more (esp in the LP). As a result, the programs were more interesting to watch in general.

Maybe it's my enjoyment of semantics and minutiae, then, because the differences for me.

Anyway, I'm hoping to put that assertion to the test.

 

[fscric]

When CoP was first implemented, the programmes were monotonous to my untrained eyes so I've lost much interest in figure skating, but now I feel the choreographers have found ways to incorporate both artistic and technical aspects in many programmes.

 

[Tonichelle]

In any given 6.0 season, how many great programs were there?

depends - what you thought was a great program, I might not have. Even skaters I like, I don't agree with the majority on when they list the best skates of those skaters. it's all a matter of perspective. and everyone on here is going to argue their perspective is the right one. Well to them, because mine is righter This argument is getting old... but it's all we skating fans have.

 

[Nena]

Wow, this thread has gone way off-topic. When I saw so many pages, I thought that something had happened to Ryan.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

^^^^
I think we know that Bradley is the mystery entry into this Worlds. If his Tech is in range of podium, it will be his humor that will either be accepted by international judges or not. I'm really looking to see if Dornbush/Miner make statements and wind up in Top Ten.

I'd like to see Ryan skate well with his sense of humour and see what those judges think. I remember when Michael Weiss used Americana music in 2004 Worlds it went over like a lead balloon. Nobody in that auditorium felt patriotic.

 

[Mathman]

I think the concept of skating by numbers is more apparent in the LP.

I have the same impression. Many LPs just seem like an obstacle course that the skaters are trying to get through.

 

[antmanb]

Can we apply the CoP to pole vaulting? Should a pole vaulter who clears the bar but then just barely catches it with part of his body on the way down be given partial credit? Surely he exerted alot of energy and no one can deny that he did something.

Problem is he failed to clear the bar cleanly and even if he ran the fastest and jumped the highest there was a problem with his technique.

But the rules of pole vaulting are clear - if the bar falls (and I think that even applies if the athlete doesn't knock it off on their way over) then it's game over. The current COP says you get points with pre determined deductions if the element you perform is not perfect. Do we really want figure skating to become like pole vaulting?

I don't see why a sport that seems desperate to be more like a "real sport" has to reward failed efforts.

I also don't buy these discussions about figure skating wanting to be more like a "real sport". I know there are some fans and commentators who constantly talk about this "real sport", but by and large people who engage that are usually pretty ignorant about the actual demands of the sport, or are trying to take out what, for a lot of people, is the uniqueness of this sport.

I always dig my heels in when someone suggests a change to make it more "sports-like" because if that's the case then it could easily end up like the top jump competition, and we all know how successful that was.


Ant

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

I think it's more about giving them credit for the actual demands of the sport, and emphasizing that. If it's about making it more of a real sport, it's about having objective standards. Otherwise, demanding or not, it can't be consider a sport.

 

[janetfan]

I think it's more about giving them credit for the actual demands of the sport, and emphasizing that. If it's about making it more of a real sport, it's about having objective standards. Otherwise, demanding or not, it can't be consider a sport.

Last season at the Olympics did we see one Lady complete a 3L +3T combo jump?
Back in 1992 we saw one Lady complete a 3L+3T combo jump. We also saw one Lady doing a 3A in 1992 and one in 2010.

The so called technical achievments brought on by the CoP are not so apparent to me in Ladies skating. Maybe in other disciplines that would not be as true.

I had worked up a comparison between Chen-Lu's LP in 1988 and Mirai's LP from this season. Obviously my point would have been how much more soulful Lulu's skating was under the 6.0 system.

Actually I still feel that way but I realize that is not a valid comparison. We can all pick certain programs to illustrate a point and one program does not define an era or system.

Watching Mirai's LP from 4CC again on YouTube was very pleasurable and not sure if I can poke too many holes in it. It helps that I think Mirai is quite the heartbreaker in that lovely kimono styled dress

I think I would have liked Mirai under either system. Yuna without doubt would have been an unstoppable force under 6.0 scoring.

V/M are such a lovely couple that judges would have swooned for the beauty of their skating under either system.

I have to wonder about certain skaters though. I think Ryan would not have done as well under 6.0 and without doubt Rachael would have been less successful.

Can I defend that? Mishin once said, sometimes in skating you see something that is special. You don't define it by numbers you just know that it is better.

Was that Mishin defending the artistic aspects of figure skating? How is it possible that "Mr Science" thinks certain intangible qualities in a skating program make a difference and should count for alot?

A stronger case for ordinals I never heard. :yes:

Watching Mirai from 4CC and Rachael from US Natls I see very little to compare as the two appear to be in a different class.

The interesting thing about skating is that we all see itdifferently.

Some prefer Rachael and others prefer Mirai.
Sadly for team USA there is little doubt who the Intl judges prefer.

The same thing may happen with Ryan at Worlds as what sells in the USA may not be quite how Intl judges see it.

I watched Ryan's Natls LP again and see his performance as more of a mess than anything else and not up to Intl standards. I feel the same way about Rachel's skating and the Intl judges have made it perfectly clear they won't overlook so many shortcomings.

I don't see it as being a difference between systems but what are accepted as international norms of excellence.

Speed and flow across the ice counts and so does good posture and positions.

Ballet does not accept dancers that have fundamental flaws. Skating may not be ballet but I see it as a form of "dance on ice". The use of music seems the make this undeniable and whether judged by CoP or 6.0 there are and always will remain intangible, subjective qualities about grace and elegance that must be considered.

I think 6.0 at it's best did a better job of judging this simply because it admitted it was such an important part of a skater's performance.

 

[Bluebonnet]

http://www.universalsports.com/news/article/newsid=528368.html
"Happiness Equals Success for Bradley"

It's disappeared.

 

[antmanb]

I think it's more about giving them credit for the actual demands of the sport, and emphasizing that. If it's about making it more of a real sport, it's about having objective standards. Otherwise, demanding or not, it can't be consider a sport.

But there's the rub. Anyone with a real interest in the sport does credit the athletes with the real demands of the sport. The only people who don't recognise it are not real fans. They haven't become fans since the COP - something which it's proponants constantly mentioned as another bonus of making it an add the points system. And the "real" sports fans are not pouring over the protocols, most haven't any more interest in skating than they previously did.

Pandering or changing skating for those that claim it is not a real sport will never ever work, what it will do is alienate those fans who like it for what it is.

 

[janetfan]

But there's the rub. Anyone with a real interest in the sport does credit the athletes with the real demands of the sport. The only people who don't recognise it are not real fans. They haven't become fans since the COP - something which it's proponants constantly mentioned as another bonus of making it an add the points system. And the "real" sports fans are not pouring over the protocols, most haven't any more interest in skating than they previously did.

Pandering or changing skating for those that claim it is not a real sport will never ever work, what it will do is alienate those fans who like it for what it is.

I must agree with this and have actually felt it on a personal level as I was forced to trudge upstairs and watch the NBC Sunday afternoon GP replays by myself on the little TV.
Everyone else was downstairs watching NFL football, including my sister, a former skater.

Maybe if I lived in Detroit it would be different as who cares about watching the Lions

 

[Tonichelle]

for me a lot of the turn off is the fan brawls/bickering that one deals with online. Skating was much more enjoyable when I was blissfully unaware of the drama. All the negativity seeps into the enjoyment. I don't frequent football boards, so I can enjoy that game without knowing about the fan wars. I'm odd, I know.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Last season at the Olympics did we see one Lady complete a 3L +3T combo jump?
Back in 1992 we saw one Lady complete a 3L+3T combo jump. We also saw one Lady doing a 3A in 1992 and one in 2010.

Is L meaning Lutz (because if so, Kim did it) or Loop (if so, no one did it). Who did a 3Loop+3Toe combination in Albertville? We also saw Flatt and Ando do hard triple-triples (though Ando’s was considered underrotated, a fact that would’ve been largely dismissed in the 6.0 era).

The so called technical achievments brought on by the CoP are not so apparent to me in Ladies skating. Maybe in other disciplines that would not be as true.

1. World champion ice dancer Alexander Zhulin basically said that what the high level ice dance couples (he specifically mentioned V/M and D/W) are doing was unimaginable in his day. The technical difficulty in most of the moves is just nuts.
2. Blades mentioned how difficult the quad was and how much energy it takes out – part of the reason men’s programs were emptier back in the day (someone like Matt Savoie, who would do complicated transitions, was ignored because of the lack of the quad). Now we have Patrick Chan, who can do two quads and then maintain a ridiculously high level of energy throughout his program, doing incredibly hard footwork and maintaining complex choreography. Kevin Reynolds is going for two quads in his SP and his plan for the LP is 4 (though plan might be more accurately replaced with “dream”). We have skaters talking seriously about the quad lutz, flip and loop (though to be fair, I don’t think this is a COP thing).
3. Pairs.... your argument is most salient here.

I had worked up a comparison between Chen-Lu's LP in 1988 and Mirai's LP from this season. Obviously my point would have been how much more soulful Lulu's skating was under the 6.0 system.

Actually I still feel that way but I realize that is not a valid comparison. We can all pick certain programs to illustrate a point and one program does not define an era or system.

True that. And nor can we use one competition to prove our point. For example, I can point out that we’d have to go down to 14th overall at the 2010 Olympics to find a lady skater who only completed three triples in her long program. In 1994, I’d simply have to look at the gold medalist, who also won the technical portion.

Watching Mirai's LP from 4CC again on YouTube was very pleasurable and not sure if I can poke too many holes in it. It helps that I think Mirai is quite the heartbreaker in that lovely kimono styled dress

You see and Mirai does have some intangibles. In my mind she doesn’t have the expressivity of Lu Chen (though most skaters, then and now, don’t. She’s one of the best). For example, the way the first spin matches the music perfectly. What she struggles with isn’t simply COP.

I think I would have liked Mirai under either system. Yuna without doubt would have been an unstoppable force under 6.0 scoring.

V/M are such a lovely couple that judges would have swooned for the beauty of their skating under either system.

You see, I have doubts. I don’t see evidence of that in 6.0. I see skaters able to get away with less technique on their jumps (both in terms of under-rotations and edge calls). I see so few great-great jumpers being acclaimed (neither Hughes nor Lipinski were great the way Kim is great, in terms of height, placement and flow).

Meanwhile, over in ice dance... was it ever a different story. Take the legends of the sport: Grisuk/Platov. Klimova/Ponamarenko. Torvill/Dean. None had a rise as quick as Virtue/Moir. Hell, G/P helped by the Winter Olympic switchover still had a slower rise to OGM. Look at the ice dance podiums. Under COP, more teams have medalled at 6 Worlds then did in the entirety of the 1980s.

The difference: under COP it’s easier to cheat. Under 6.0 it’s easier for cheating to have an effect.

I have to wonder about certain skaters though. I think Ryan would not have done as well under 6.0 and without doubt Rachael would have been less successful.

How successful have they been?

Flatt: one time National champion. Olympian. Top five at Worlds. World Junior Champion. GP medals. Three time World team member
Bradley: one time National champion. Two time World team member. One time GP medalist.

What kind of dramatic difference would 6.0 make? What successes have they had do you see them missing under 6.0?

Can I defend that? Mishin once said, sometimes in skating you see something that is special. You don't define it by numbers you just know that it is better.

Was that Mishin defending the artistic aspects of figure skating? How is it possible that "Mr Science" thinks certain intangible qualities in a skating program make a difference and should count for alot?

A stronger case for ordinals I never heard. :yes:

Really? Because that’s a weak sauce argument. Ordinals are numbers. They’re just inherently meaningless and are a perfect way to judge intangibles.

Watching Mirai from 4CC and Rachael from US Natls I see very little to compare as the two appear to be in a different class.

At 4CC, I agree.

[quote[The interesting thing about skating is that we all see itdifferently.

Some prefer Rachael and others prefer Mirai.
Sadly for team USA there is little doubt who the Intl judges prefer.

I don’t know about that. Flatt has beaten Nagasu internationally (world juniors 2008, Cup of China 2009) and in individual programs (Olympics SP, Worlds 2010 LP). It seems to me that if both skate cleanly, they’ll give it to Nagasu (to wit: even though Flatt beat her in both those programs, Nagasu outpointed Flatt on PCS), but how often is Nagasu actually clean?

Now, in the Flatt vs Nagasu in terms of how they impact me, I’m relatively split. I think both need to skip Nichol’s choreography next season. I yearn to see what Nagasu could do under Orser-Wilson’s tutelage, and think that Bourne or Camerlengo (or Tom Dickson, if he’s the guy that works with Abbott. I confuse my figure skating Toms) would be terrific for Flatt

The same thing may happen with Ryan at Worlds as what sells in the USA may not be quite how Intl judges see it.

I watched Ryan's Natls LP again and see his performance as more of a mess than anything else and not up to Intl standards. I feel the same way about Rachel's skating and the Intl judges have made it perfectly clear they won't overlook so many shortcomings.

The American judges gave Bradley the benefit of the doubt in the LP. It’ll be intriguing to compare his PCS for the SP internationally, though. They weren’t too easy on him at Nationals, and the USA tends to have less inflation then internationally (though ice dancing was completely off the charts ridiculous!)

I don't see it as being a difference between systems but what are accepted as international norms of excellence.

Speed and flow across the ice counts and so does good posture and positions.

Do you think that the American judges overlooked that at Nationals?

Ballet does not accept dancers that have fundamental flaws. Skating may not be ballet but I see it as a form of "dance on ice". The use of music seems the make this undeniable and whether judged by CoP or 6.0 there are and always will remain intangible, subjective qualities about grace and elegance that must be considered.

I think 6.0 at it's best did a better job of judging this simply because it admitted it was such an important part of a skater's performance.

Whereas I think because they were intangibles, giving them undue weight means, by definition, rendering a competition where the subjective reigns. But more than that, COP is an evolving beast. We haven’t seen the best it can be. But when we do.... it will be amazing.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

But there's the rub. Anyone with a real interest in the sport does credit the athletes with the real demands of the sport. The only people who don't recognise it are not real fans. They haven't become fans since the COP - something which it's proponants constantly mentioned as another bonus of making it an add the points system. And the "real" sports fans are not pouring over the protocols, most haven't any more interest in skating than they previously did.

Pandering or changing skating for those that claim it is not a real sport will never ever work, what it will do is alienate those fans who like it for what it is.

I'm not sure I agree. To argue that new fans haven't come on board since COP is to ignore an entire nation (South Korea). I'd also point out that ice dance is much more popular now with actual skaters, and I think COP has a great deal to do with that.

Hell, I'll point out that COP made ME a fan of figure skating again, and did so in a way that 6.0 couldn't hope to touch. I think the athleticism is better and the artistry more intriguing.

 

[Krislite]

Last season at the Olympics did we see one Lady complete a 3L +3T combo jump?
Back in 1992 we saw one Lady complete a 3L+3T combo jump. We also saw one Lady doing a 3A in 1992 and one in 2010.

The so called technical achievments brought on by the CoP are not so apparent to me in Ladies skating. Maybe in other disciplines that would not be as true.

[...]

??? Kim did two 3Lutz+3Toe combos and Asada did three 3Axels in Vancouver. What previous Olympics in the 6.0 era had that? Granted, I wouldn't credit it to CoP, but it's not like ladies technical achievements have collapsed under CoP.

 

[Mathman]

I'll point out that COP made ME a fan of figure skating again, and did so in a way that 6.0 couldn't hope to touch. I think the athleticism is better and the artistry more intriguing.

I think this is unusual, though. There are not many people saying, hot diggitty, they changed the base value of a triple flip from 5.5 to 5.3. I LOVE THIS SPORT!!!

But I think there are many fans -- a least in potential -- who, like Hernando, say, "I really get a kick out of that Mirai Nagasu. This is better than football!"

 

[janetfan]

??? Kim did two 3Lutz+3Toe combos and Asada did three 3Axels in Vancouver. What previous Olympics in the 6.0 era had that? Granted, I wouldn't credit it to CoP, but it's not like ladies technical achievements have collapsed under CoP.

Midor icould do things neither Mao or Yuna can do. She did all of the triples.

 

[Lilith11]

Midor icould do things neither Mao or Yuna can do. She did all of the triples.

And under 6.0, Mao's lutz wouldn't have been penalized and while it's not her favorite/most reputed jump, she can (and has done in competition) triple salchows before. And don't forget her spins and spirals (her spiral position is imo noticeably prettier than Midori's).

Yu-na doesn't have the 3A but most ladies during 6.0 didn't have it either- however, she does have a massive 3Lz+3T as well as a pretty darn good 3F+3T combo as well as decent spirals and strong edging and flow (especially in her spirals which while not the most aesthetically pleasing, have good ice coverage and speed) as well as textbook technique on all her jumps (yes even her 3Loop from the ones she did complete in competition i.e. 2007 Cup of Russia).

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I'm not sure I agree. To argue that new fans haven't come on board since COP is to ignore an entire nation (South Korea). I'd also point out that ice dance is much more popular now with actual skaters, and I think COP has a great deal to do with that.

Hell, I'll point out that COP made ME a fan of figure skating again, and did so in a way that 6.0 couldn't hope to touch. I think the athleticism is better and the artistry more intriguing.

In my opinion, Ice Dance is more popular not because of the system, but because we have skaters that can present programs without sturm und drang. The two Top Ice Dance Teams made their statements in 2007 Worlds and quickly rose to the top.

I became an instant fan of CoP when it first appeared, and it was concerned with scoring what is seen, but that fancy soon faded when it became obvious that elements could receive credit for faults. To me, an element is an element when it is executed by definition. The CoP makes much too much busy making figure skating a less than perfect sport.

Can you imagine a Football Player getting 4 points for almost making a touchdown?