'ICE' ISU Open Pro-Am series planned for 2012 (Scott Hamilton's brainchild)

[skfan]

What I see in both the new GP changes and the proposed Pro competitions is the attempt to lure viewers with skating stars, current champions and top seeds in the GP and recently retired champions in the pro circuit.

Either they don't think there are enough young attractions or/and they try to appeal to older and previous fans to come back to watch their idols once again. I think this view is particularly pertinent to the Americans. A little nostalgia may work up the appetite for the sport again.

which retired skaters do you think americans will tune in to see?

 

[Violet Bliss]

which retired skaters do you think americans will tune in to see?

Eligeble retired American skaters for the Pro-Am:

Michelle Kwan, Sarah Hughes, Sasha Cohen, Kimmie Meissner.

Timothy Goebel, Evan Lysacek, Johnny Weir.

Kyoko Ina / John Zimmerman.

Tanith Belbin / Benjamin Agosto.

I think Michelle and Johnny are the greatest draw, though Michelle's interest cannot be counted on.

Of course American fans are not limited to only American skaters. There are great names like Yagudin, Plushenko, Lambiel, Buttle, Shen/Zhao, Slutskaya, Domnina / Shabalin, etc

 

[Olympia]

I'd be happy to see a lot of retired or less active skaters, if they'd come back--people like Klimova/Ponomarenko and Kristi Yamaguchi. It depends on how motivated they are and whether they can get into shape.

As for Scott, it's a bit disingenuous to say that "if he hadn't founded SOI, some other venue for skaters would have come along." Oddly, almost none did. Champions on Ice was great, but it mostly featured skaters performing their own routines with no connecting thread. An actual performance-based show, featuring ensemble skating and programs choreographed for that show, was far harder to find. Boitano's show lasted for a short time (and I saw one and loved it). There's an Ice Ballet company (can't remember the exact name) based in New York, but it doesn't have the visibility of SOI. Ice Capades was fading and then disappeared. In the U.S., only SOI endured and for a long time brought in audiences. I'm grateful to it for programs like that lovely duet skated by Gordeyeva and Kulik (created by the show's choreographer, Sandra Bezic), for all the Browning pieces, and for featuring less prominent medalists who were nonetheless dynamite lyrical skaters, such as Roca and Sur. It gave longevity to skaters such as Paul Wylie and Kristi Yamaguchi, who were thus able to develop artistically in a way that they never could have otherwise. And for the skaters, it created a family bond that I think has lasted to this day. Katia Gordeyeva certainly was sustained by that bond--I'm sure others were, too, though not in such extreme circumstances.

I can't imagine that Scott is really homophobic, or he wouldn't have lasted in skating. Remember that SOI featured Rob McCall, and that McCall was a good friend of Scott's. There have been others as well. Whatever went on between SOI and Johnny Weir, I don't think it demonstrates a pattern of behavior on Scott's part.

As for Scott's one-sidedness, that's a different issue, related to his commentating. If he is, that's a shortcoming, but it doesn't change what he's done for skating in other areas, in my opinion.

 

[skfan]

I'd be happy to see a lot of retired or less active skaters, if they'd come back--people like Klimova/Ponomarenko and Kristi Yamaguchi. It depends on how motivated they are and whether they can get into shape.

As for Scott, it's a bit disingenuous to say that "if he hadn't founded SOI, some other venue for skaters would have come along." Oddly, almost none did. Champions on Ice was great, but it mostly featured skaters performing their own routines with no connecting thread. An actual performance-based show, featuring ensemble skating and programs choreographed for that show, was far harder to find. Boitano's show lasted for a short time (and I saw one and loved it). There's an Ice Ballet company (can't remember the exact name) based in New York, but it doesn't have the visibility of SOI. Ice Capades was fading and then disappeared. In the U.S., only SOI endured and for a long time brought in audiences. I'm grateful to it for programs like that lovely duet skated by Gordeyeva and Kulik (created by the show's choreographer, Sandra Bezic), for all the Browning pieces, and for featuring less prominent medalists who were nonetheless dynamite lyrical skaters, such as Roca and Sur. It gave longevity to skaters such as Paul Wylie and Kristi Yamaguchi, who were thus able to develop artistically in a way that they never could have otherwise. And for the skaters, it created a family bond that I think has lasted to this day. Katia Gordeyeva certainly was sustained by that bond--I'm sure others were, too, though not in such extreme circumstances.

I can't imagine that Scott is really homophobic, or he wouldn't have lasted in skating. Remember that SOI featured Rob McCall, and that McCall was a good friend of Scott's. There have been others as well. Whatever went on between SOI and Johnny Weir, I don't think it demonstrates a pattern of behavior on Scott's part.

As for Scott's one-sidedness, that's a different issue, related to his commentating. If he is, that's a shortcoming, but it doesn't change what he's done for skating in other areas, in my opinion.

how did skating manage to survive in japan without scott hamilton? maybe it was because he founded SOI that they had the idea--maybe without scott IMG japan wouldn't have known what to do with all of their ice skating stars once skating became popular in japan. or do we have to credit scott with making skating popular in japan as well?

i never said one could say FOR CERTAIN that another professional ice show would have happened--i said you cannot hold as some sort of holy truth in the universe that were it not for scott, there would be NO pro skating in america, that the skating landscape would be so very much worse. i still do not think SOI is all that, but you're certainly welcome to hold the popular opinion that it is.

scott's crony-ism provides support for some skaters but i feel he excludes others--i have no proof, of course, you are again welcome to hold the popular opinion.

 

[jatale]

I think ICE is a very promising idea. I think it is a serious effort to promote figure skating to a wider audience. I don't know where the negativity towards Scotty come from, it seems VERY misplaced to me. Scotty is one of the most active people trying to keep figure skating in the public eye, he has overcome cancer in his own life, he seems very supportive of all skaters regardless of skill level or nationality or personal preferences. I have nothing but the highest regard for him as a person and as a skater. I hope this latest project of his meets with success and that it promotes more visibility for the sport of figure skating.

I don't read the ICE proposal as "banning" classical music, just that it wants to promote the use of modern music more. That makes a lot of sense if you want to attract a broader audience to figure skating. I think that having cash prizes is absolutely the right thing to do - you can't get the best tennis players in the world to play without cash, why should figure skaters be any different. Figure skating is just as much a sport as tennis, and the top figure skaters deserve to be paid for their time and effort. THIS IS A MUST! IT IS A SIGN OF RESPECT!

 

[Mathman]

In my humble opinion it is not really worth arguing about whether other people could have done what Scott Hamilton did for figure skating in the U.S. As Olympia says, he did and they didn't.

However, I am still getting more of a show vibe than a competition vibe here. Here is Sport's Illustrated's leading paragraph on the 1995 "Too Hot to Skate."

If you've had your fill of football, an antidote is to tune in to CBS's Too Hot to Skate on Jan. 4 at 8 p.m. For this exhibition, sequined Olympic gold medalists Oksana Baiul, Scott Hamilton and Katarina Witt headline the show from Caesars Palace in Las Vegas. The four showgirls who join Kurt Browning for his number lend new meaning to the term figure skating.

Four showgirls and Kurt Browning. OK.

Don't get me wrong, I love these shows. I think Stars on Ice is fine. But we already have Stars on Ice. The Disson shows are still in business. Disney on Ice tours annually. You can go on a cruise and be entertained by adagio pairs.

What I am curious about is the plans for the competitive aspects, if any. Since these events are sanctioned ISU competitions, the CoP must be used, along with certified ISU judges. Scott's announcement states that there will be segments on understanding the scoring system.

I think that having cash prizes is absolutely the right thing to do - you can't get the best tennis players in the world to play without cash, why should figure skaters be any different.

Of course the performers will get paid. What people were making fun of was the idea of giving a special cash bonus for each "difficult jump" that they include in their programs. Like if you gave Federrer an extra $1000 bucks for each ace that he served.

 

[jatale]

My understanding is that ICE IS A COMPETITION. I thought that was very clear from the ICE web site. ICE is not an exhibition. The goal is to have the best skaters of the last 10 years battle it out competitively, using new choreography with current music, and with as much athleticism and technical content as possible in a pro-am environment. I'm not sure what the idea is behind the cash for jumps, but I think it is to encourage the use of the most demanding jumps in the competition in order to keep the technical content high.

I'm a bit confused as to how the older skaters are supposed to compete on a level playing field with the current Olympic competitors, however. Maybe some of the "elders" can summon the technical content to do so, but I'm guessing that the judging rules will leave more room for artistic and presentation points where the "elders" might have an advantage.

 

[dorispulaski]

Select group of skaters invited from all four disciplines: Ladies, Men’s Pairs and Ice Dance.

As long as he has any of the dancers, I am

Since T&D have been doing the British skating with celebrities program, I wonder whether they might come back for this?
And K&P are teaching--I wonder whether they are in competition shape? I hope so!
the Kerrs are a huge draw wherever they go.

And you've got to have V&M and D&W, absolutely

It doesn't seem quite fair that the singles and maybe the pairs will get cash for jumps and since the dancers don't jump, is there any technical feat that they can earn money with?

 

[elinmand]

I'd "tune in" for just about any figure skating on TV. Problem is, there's been so little of it--and much of that on channels I don't get, even with cable. When the only skating on TV is the Christmas specials and maybe Skate America and the U. S. championships, how is skating supposed to maintain any kind of fan base? How do you show support for the U.S. world team if the world championships aren't televised? It's hard to be a fan of what you never get to see. Sure, there's YouTube, but you have to actively search skater by skater, program by program and never really get any kind of sense of the competition as a whole.

More skating on network television would bring back old fans, rope in new ones, and encourage more skaters to be more competitive during their eligible careers and to continue skating as professionals.

 

[skfan]

As long as he has any of the dancers, I am

Since T&D have been doing the British skating with celebrities program, I wonder whether they might come back for this?
And K&P are teaching--I wonder whether they are in competition shape? I hope so!
the Kerrs are a huge draw wherever they go.

And you've got to have V&M and D&W, absolutely

It doesn't seem quite fair that the singles and maybe the pairs will get cash for jumps and since the dancers don't jump, is there any technical feat that they can earn money with?

IIRC you have to have won a world or olympic medal within the last 10 years to be invited, so torville and dean wouldn't fit this criteria. on the other hand i can hardly think of a bigger name in dance for drawing audiences. my suspicion is if the organizers don't get enough takers, enough marquee-name retired participants, that they will relax their criteria--and soon it will be within 15 years, any GP medal, doesn't have to be world or olympics. the goal is to draw people, right? the people watching will hardly care exactly how long ago skater X or couple Y&Z won their medal, only how interesting, entertaining the TV program is.

i think what's most important to me is that there be no live band that the camera will be cutting away from the skaters to show, and that they relax this 'contemporary' music constraint, so that the skaters have more artistic freedom. of course if torville and dean were to participate they could skate to bach and nobody would have the nerve to object

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I see no where in this thread that Retired skaters will apply. I wish the Retired skaters would form a special annual competition for themselves and only for themselves.

Apparently this Hamilton inspired competition is for a select group of skaters in each of the four disciplines, so naming your favorite retirees may not be that 'slective'.

in fact we really do not know all that much about this competition. Are the international organizers agree to this?
Will the organizers in Asia and Europe have the mid summer venue ready for their dates? Will there be TV coverage in the selected venue?

How will the 'selective' skaters and judges be informed, and who are they?

The logistics, as I see it, are overwhelming, and the competitions would never be ready this year. Most important, will the ISU approve?

 

[Olympia]

I completely agree, skfan!

I wouldn't want to be the lowly worker who has to contact Torvill and Dean and say, "Sorry, you don't fulfill the requirements to skate in our program." I wouldn't want to be the one to tell the audience that T & D weren't allowed into the competition, either!

 

[Mathman]

The logistics, as I see it, are overwhelming, and the competitions would never be ready this year. Most important, will the ISU approve?

They plan to start in 2012. The ISU Council has already approved the prospectus "in principle," with no doubt many details still to work out. The scoring system will be a "modified" CoP, with the ISU supplying the tech specialists and judges.

The people behind this are Rob Dustin and Bobby Goldwater. Dustin is a former producer and sports entrepreneur at Icenetwork and Universal Sports. He produced segmnents of the CBS Olympic coverage in 1992, 1994, and 1998, and is credited with coming up with innovative ways to draw in the TV audience, such as mounting a camera on the front of a bobsled.

He produced the three Skating with Celebrities shows and a bunch of documentary-type skating features such as the "My Sergei" tribute to Sergei Grinkov, as well as events like Ice Wars in the 1990s. His company is Red Brick Entertainments.

Bobby Goldwater (The Goldwater Group sports and entertainment) has a long and impressive career in venue management and sports productions. He was part of the management team at Madison Square Garden for 24 years before becoming Senior Vice President of Staples center. He formed a coalition to bring baseball back to Washington DC in 2004.

http://scs.georgetown.edu/departmen...ustry-management/faculty-bio.cfm?a=a&fId=1161

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0244720/

This new company (note that Scott Hamilt0n is the "Creative Executive Officer", not the CEO) is an LLC (Limited Liability Company). This status allows investors and sponsors to buy in without assuming personal liability for the company's losses. I would expect that they have already done quite a bit of preparatory legwork on this project before making this announcement.

My only concern is that the project is geared more towards an entertainment exrravaganza that an actual competitive sporting event. For the cast, I am sure that they will just go down the list of who's available and select the skaters that they feel will be the biggest draws.

I hope they can get Lysacek, Weir, and Lambiel, and Arakawa for the ladies.

 

[Tonichelle]

I hope they can get Lysacek, Weir, and Lambiel, and Arakawa for the ladies.

they could play off of the Lysacek/Wear "rivalry" if that were to happen.

Whatever happened to Evan's talks with organizers to do an xgames version of figure skating?

 

[Mathman]

Whatever happened to Evan's talks with organizers to do an xgames version of figure skating?

It might not be too late! This guy Rob Dustin produced the 2006 Major League Video Gaming Circuit. Evidently there are teams of video gamers that compete against each other at live competitions on on TV (I must have missed it in my local programming guide).

http://www.gamezone.com/news/item/r..._major_league_gaming_pro_circuit_tour_on_usa/

 

[skfan]

I completely agree, skfan!

I wouldn't want to be the lowly worker who has to contact Torvill and Dean and say, "Sorry, you don't fulfill the requirements to skate in our program." I wouldn't want to be the one to tell the audience that T & D weren't allowed into the competition, either!

you know just now i imagined torville and dean skating to air on a G string, carmina burana, pachelbel canon, some of the great classical warhorses or that brahm piece from 'tree of life' whose name i only learned yesterday (thanks to youtube). i would also like to see angelika krylova again heck, i'd like to see shae-lynn bourne skating by herself, with victor kraatz or a new partner! darn, a lot of the people i'd like to see wouldn't qualify by their 10 year rule (well, not shae-lynn's new partner, for sure).

was cinquanta's concern that the quality of the technical elements would be too deficient if they let older skaters compete? i remember appreciating lisa marie allen and dorothy when they were more than 10 years out of their ISU competition years. but this might be the reason for the money bonus for difficult jumps--cinquanta doesn't want anyone winning with the hardest jump being the double axel? of course that would be unlikely if arakawa and rochette were to participate.

i don't want to get behind this only to be disappointed, but i must admit at this moment i'm starting to feel even slightly hopeful

ETA
on the other hand the money bonus for difficult jumps might be inducement for amateurs to add these pro-am events to their already full GP + nationals + 4cc/Euro + worlds schedule. for instance suguri or murakami can almost count on getting some bonus money just from the jumps alone--even if they didn't win overall against arakawa. unless the bonus money jump is the 3-lutz? i have not checked if she would even qualify for these competitions, but i would love to see yukina ota again, even if she didn't try a single jump.

 

[Violet Bliss]

What if Plushenko and Chan could earn more money from Pro-Am jumps than prize money from GP events?

 

[Mathman]

^ Personally, I think it would be very good for skating if they could. This was certainly the case for Michelle Kwan in her most productive years. The top prize in a pro-am or all-am cheesefest was $50,000 -- the same amount that a skater got back then for winning the World Championship. Plus, I would be surprised if she didn't get extra appearance money under the table.

Michelle never missed a cheesefest, not even the audience vote-in show in December of 2005 where she could barely walk, much less skate. (All of the "judges," Dick Button, Peggy Fleming and Peter Carruthers voted for Sasha, but the Sleeping Internet Kwanster (I mean Monster) awoke; a rumbling as of distant thunder was heard in the land; the Internet and call-in vote came in, at first a gentle rain, then, gathering to a mighty head,... )

I don't see how it would do the ISU any harm if, say Patrick Chan skipped the Grand Prix in favor of the pro-ams. For that matter, if he has the legs for it, Chan could do both and really clean up. (The rules stipulate that the pro-ams must be scheduled so as not to conflict with other ISU events or with National Championships.)

In the best of all possible worlds both the pro-ams and the Grand Prix would make money for the ISU, which would surely be music to Mr. Cinquanta's ears.

Edited to add: Yu-na Kim might do the pro-ams. too. That way she could keep her hand in without killing herself, and also keep her options open for the future.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I hope they can get Lysacek, Weir, and Lambiel, and Arakawa for the ladies.

Why not the active skaters? Did they mention only for retired skaters? I'd like to see Ashley, Hanyu, Sotnikova, Chen

I agree, this comp will not be taken seriously. It's the latest in the long list of cheesefests. The lovers of campy routines will be happy. Maybe it might make some money for the coffers of the ISU and its affiliates.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Michelle never missed a cheesefest, not even the audience vote-in show in December of 2005 where she could barely walk, much less skate. (All of the "judges," Dick Button, Peggy Fleming and Peter Carruthers voted for Sasha, but the Sleeping Internet Kwanster (I mean Monster) awoke; a rumbling as of distant thunder was heard in the land; the Internet and call-in vote came in, at first a gentle rain, then, gathering to a mighty head,...

C'mon, everyone knows those cheesefests paid for that new fabulous rink in LA. I'm sure she got a hefty stipend just to enter.

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