Tuktamysheva: The Views of Frank Carroll

[prettykeys]

I don't think what Frank Carroll said per se is all that bad, but I just find it ironic that he is saying that while coaching Mirai Nagasu and Denis Ten, who still have a somewhat immature presentation despite their ages (18) and their advanced performance abilities. I like both Mirai and Denis, but I think it is worse to be "immature" in presentation at 18 than it is to be so at 14 as Elizaveta is.

And, if Liza is "lacking what the other girls have to offer", well...it's quite obvious that the converse is also true: that the other girls are lacking what she has to offer.

 

[sorcerer]

Why aren't I happy?

I don't know how many of you have ever followed Fomula-1 races, but in the '70s the competition looked much more adrenalin oriented than today, with the power-drifting in the corners, slick tires, big crashes ... and in the late '80s an intense rivalry between Ayrton Senna and Alain Prost brought lots of drama.
Those days are gone and now it's more like a parade of race cars and yes I'm not happy with it but the new viewers seem excited just as we were back in the days.

I think it's the same in any field. You saw it when your mind was fresh. The same amount of stimulation won't excite you any more because you're older and used to it.
What's more, the game itself gets sophisticated as the years go by, be it better or worse.
So we better let the new viewers enjoy the games, and not disturb them by lamenting about the days gone away.

 

[Dragonlady]

Why aren't I happy?

Because you're not watching the great programs being skated by people who know how to jump, spin and do footwork. Patrick Chan's SP is my new favourite SP. See the World's 2011 version. Also see Daisuke's SP from 2010, and Kozuka's as well. Daisuke's LP from this season. Patrick's LP for this season when he gets it together. Fernandez is looking great, both short and long. No stalking the jumps for 30 seconds, the jumps come right out of the choreography and the moves aren't pointless. Takahashi's Blues for Klook is a masterpiece but he's still feeling the effects of his recent knee surgery so the jumps aren't there yet.

Before figures were dropped in 1990, skaters could do footwork and spins and that were interesting. They used transitions in their programs and had a full vocabulary of footwork, not the shallow rockers, turns and brackets that passed for footwork we saw at the turn of the century. Their stroking was cleaner and stronger and they could do footwork sequences without losing speed.

Your country lost skating viewership because your networks allowed Dick Button and now Scott Hamilton to rail against CoP ad nauseum and failed to explain it to their viewers in any reasonable way, merely telling them it was too complicated. In Canada, we have more figure skating on TV than ever before with two networks now outbidding each other for rights. CTV/TSN gave us all-skater SP and LP coverage of Skate Canada, something they haven't done in years. CBC/Bold has been giving us all-skater live coverage of the rest of the GP, 4CC and Worlds ever since CTV dropped the contract about 5 years ago.

 

[cosmos]

I don't know how many of you have ever followed Fomula-1 races, but in the '70s the competition looked much more adrenalin oriented than today, with the power-drifting in the corners, slick tires, big crashes ... and in the late '80s an intense rivalry between Ayrton Senna and Alain Prost brought lots of drama.
Those days are gone and now it's more like a parade of race cars and yes I'm not happy with it but the new viewers seem excited just as we were back in the days.

I think it's the same in any field. You saw it when your mind was fresh. The same amount of stimulation won't excite you amy more because you're older and used to it.
What's more, the game itself gets sophisticated as the years go by, be it better or worse.
So we better let the new viewers enjoy the games, and not disturb them buy lamenting about the days gone away.

Agreed.

 

[Spun Silver]

Your country lost skating viewership because your networks allowed Dick Button and now Scott Hamilton to rail against CoP ad nauseum and failed to explain it to their viewers in any reasonable way, merely telling them it was too complicated. In Canada, we have more figure skating on TV than ever before with two networks now outbidding each other for rights. CTV/TSN gave us all-skater SP and LP coverage of Skate Canada, something they haven't done in years. CBC/Bold has been giving us all-skater live coverage of the rest of the GP, 4CC and Worlds ever since CTV dropped the contract about 5 years ago.

That's impressive and enviable (painfully so!) but how do you know it's because Canada has embraced COP rather than because of Marie-France/Patrice, Jeff, Joannie, and Patrick (esp. the last two)?

I never thought of Uncle Dick & Scott as railing against the COP. Interesting.

 

[jenaj]

That's impressive and enviable (painfully so!) but how do you know it's because Canada has embraced COP rather than because of Marie-France/Patrice, Jeff, Joannie, and Patrick (esp. the last two)?

I never thought of Uncle Dick & Scott as railing against the COP. Interesting.

Certainly not on the air. I agree it's more because of the lack of stars in the US. After Michelle and Sasha stopped competing, the rest of the field was (and is) pretty lackluster.

 

[Blades of Passion]

CoP improving the basic skating and the complexity of the programs we are now seeing doesn't actually mean those programs are better.

Throwing transitions into programs just to do transitions (because they make the program more difficult) is often a hindrance to the program rather than a benefit, for many reasons...1.) Transitions can have nothing to do with the music and thus look worse than regular crossovers or directional gliding would, 2.) Transitions can reduce the skater's expression because it takes their focus away from performing, 3.) Transitions can make impending jumps smaller and/or less clean because of the extra effort they require and transitions after jumps can hinder the flow coming out, 4.) Transitions can detract from the natural build up of suspense and/or the natural release of emotion that comes before/after a jump because they can disconnect the choreography and the line of the skater's body, as well as detracting from the skater's momentum.

Spins being more complex is often a gigantic hindrance because they take too long to perform and they have so many variations, thus making it nearly impossible to truly interpret the music with a spin or even simply match a spin to the music. The variations being put into spins often look like crap to begin with and many of the so-called "difficult variations" are actually less demanding than a well-executed "basic position". The amount of extra time spent needing to spin also means less time available for other choreography.

Footwork being more complex to the point that it is in the current rules gives us another massive time sink. In addition to how much time they require to execute, speed across the ice is often lost, movement that goes to the music is often lost, choreography being cohesive and relevant throughout the entire step sequence is nearly impossible, momentum in continuous direction tend to be lost as skaters need to double-back to make more room for extra steps/turns, and the patterns of the footwork sequences themselves are generally incongruent messes.

Jumping has even become more of a detriment to the programs, as skaters are forced to put more jumps into programs than they ever needed to and are often rewarded for jump layouts that go against the music and go against good choreography, with the focus instead on building programs around cramming jumps back-to-back-to-back in order to gain the halfway bonus and/or to get them out of the way.

-----

While CoP has definitely improved some aspects of the sport for the better, a ton of others have become far worse off. The system itself has the potential to make the sport as a whole much better, but without better judging and a perfectly balanced system (as close to perfection as possible anyway) that will not happen. ISU has been much too slow about improving the system and has gone in too many bad directions in general.

We need to see rules that allow for "simpler" spins and footwork to be better rewarded. It's virtually impossible to have a program with all Level 4 spins that all look better than what the skater could do with a lower level spin and completely serve the music/choreography, but the current system and judging makes every skater attempt the highest level that is realistically possible for them instead of doing spins that benefit the performance best. As for footwork, the rules during the 2005-2006 season of CoP is what has worked best so far. That was a great balance between needing enough complexity to score well and not consuming too much time or requiring so much movement that it looks messy and/or disconnected from the choreography/music/performance (the only problem was the disproportionate amount of points given to Level 4 footwork).

Jumps need to be given the appropriate amount of points for difficult combinations. As it is right now, you actually could end up getting less points for a 3Lutz+3Toe and solo 2Axel in comparison to an easier scenario of solo 3Lutz and 2Axel+3Toe...there are many inconsistencies with the scoring in this vein that devalue difficult combinations. The rules about how GOE effects jumps need to be drastically overhauled - mistakes need to be more harshly punished, edge violations should be a deduction to base value rather than being GOE-based, and underrotated/downgraded jumps shouldn't automatically receive -GOE. In addition, the issue of a skater accidentally performing the same jump too many times or accidentally attempting too many combinations needs to be fixed so that skaters aren't being massively penalized for what is ultimately not a real mistake at all. Extra jumps done in combination should be given 0 points, rather than the entire jumping pass they are connected to being given 0 points, and if a skater performs a certain Triple jump (or double axel) more times than allowed, that jump should simply be downgraded to the next lower level instead of the entire jumping pass being given 0 points.

Skaters should have more freedom with regards to what elements they are required to perform in the Long Program (it's still officially called the "Free Skating" segment of the competition and yet not enough freedom is allowed). Less jumping passes and jump combinations should be required than the current rules dictate, footwork/spiral sequences should not be as set-in-stone as they currently are, and skaters should instead have several "free slots" in their program to choose exactly what kind of technical elements that want to put in the program (jumping pass, jump combination, spin, footwork sequence, or spiral sequence) in addition to the minimum requirements. This would allow for more diversity, creativity, and unpredictability in the Long Program. The same goes for Pairs programs if you think I'm leaving them out, I just didn't include all of those specific elements in the above list.

We need to see programs judged more critically with regards to how effectively every single movement works with the performance, interpretation, and choreography. The only way for programs to be judged like that is to have judges who can comprehend and synthesize this myriad complexity. They need to be educated better and they need to be tested more rigorously. A judge shouldn't just sit there and nod their head and smile when a skater does a transition and think that automatically makes the program better, they need to specifically be thinking "Yes, you did a transition, but what does it have to do with the performance/choreography/interpretation?" They need to scrutinize elements more carefully, especially applying -GOE more liberally to lackluster spins that suffer from positions which hinder any of the speed, centering, flow between positions, or overall body line of the skater. They need to realize that all 5 program components can vary drastically for the same skater and they need to realize that the same skater often deserves to be scored much differently from competition to competition. Judges need to look clearly at the quality of the performance and program that day and not take past placement or starting order or the "momentum" of how people are saying a certain skater should place into consideration.

 

[seniorita]

She doesn't look powerful at all.

I meant compared to last year if she has improved.

 

[demarinis5]

What an interesting read this thread has been. So far I have learned that Frank is a bitter old man who should keep his mouth shut, fans that appreciated skating before COP and criticize the current system should keep quiet about their dislike of COP, skating has declined in the US because of Dick Button and Scott Hamilton, Michelle's Tosca was gross so therefore not COP worthy. Carry on......

 

[Olympia]

Blades, I pretty much agree with you about what CoP has done to the musicality of skating. We can probably count on Mathman as well. I'm especially glad you said what you did about footwork. Aren't you sick of seeing frenzied footwork that has nothing to do with a lyrical piece of music?

I know that a lot of people enjoy the statistical, analytical side of skating. But I'm here for the music, largely. I can tell this because the skaters I have loved through the years are the ones who excel at musicality: John Curry, Toller Cranston, Janet Lynn, Michelle, Yuka, Mao, YuNa (she is also a splendid CoP skater, as it happens), Kurt, Paul Wylie, Yagudin, Daisuke. Anything that wrecks the music generally leaves me cold.

This is probably why I watch "Lyra Angelica" so often.

 

[kwanatic]

What an interesting read this thread has been. So far I have learned that Frank is a bitter old man who should keep his mouth shut, fans that appreciated skating before COP and criticize the current system should keep quiet about their dislike of COP, skating has declined in the US because of Dick Button and Scott Hamilton, Michelle's Tosca was gross so therefore not COP worthy. Carry on......

Interesting 8-page recap.

I don't think Frank is bitter; he's just honest. He sees a 14 year old with massive potential who isn't quite there yet but is being given scores as if she is there. ITA with everything he said. Liza's presentation was not as good as Akiko's or Ashley's at SC...and their jump quality wasn't as good as Liza's (though Akiko did land 7 triples to Liza's 6). Her scores were a bit too high. Plain and simple. That's fine though...Liza's 14 which means she has time to develop a more mature style.

Yes, the simple beauty of skating is long gone and will never come back under COP, but COP has added some new and better things to the sport.

Skating has declined in the US because there hasn't been a consistent ladies competitor since Michelle left (this country is slightly homophobic so glorifying a male skater...probably not gonna happen :disapp. People bitched and complained about Michelle but what people are realizing now is what a luxury it was to have a guaranteed podium finisher for nearly 10 years. Sustaining that level of consistency is pretty much unheard of now. The Golden Era is long since past and I don't know if skating will ever reach that kind of popularity in this country again.

Blasphemy!! COP or not, Michelle's Tosca was amazing!!

 

[Mathman]

...so? You said that you thought (Miki Ando's performance) was "great."

It was great! I also liked both Czisny's and Kostner's short programs at Skate America. I still think that the judging system is a hindrance to these three and to other ladies. I agree with Frank Carroll about that.

What is frustrating about conversations like this is the following. Figure skating as a spectator sport is in big trouble in the United States. The solution? According to CoP enthusiasts, the solution is to tell people to read more ISU protocols.

So we better let the new viewers enjoy the games, and not disturb them by lamenting about the days gone away.

I'm willing. (Although I have to admit it's fun playing the role of Jeremiah crying in the wilderness, warning the people to repent before it's too late. )

In any case (woe and alas!) in the U.S. these new viewers are few and far between. Attendance at Skate America was a disgrace. The USFSA can't even find anyone willing to submit a bid to host Skate America next year.

 

[seniorita]

Yagudin was MANY great things, but was he musical really? I mean he was like Buttle or Daisuke? I didnt seem him this way before and I dont think I ve missed a program of his before and after he retired.

 

[let`s talk]

He sees a 14 year old with massive potential who isn't quite there yet but is being given scores as if she is there.

Tara? He said the same things about her too when she was 14?

 

[Bluebonnet]

Skaters should have more freedom with regards to what elements they are required to perform in the Long Program (it's still officially called the "Free Skating" segment of the competition and yet not enough freedom is allowed).

I'm not particularly against this notion. Just want to point out that more freedom means more subjectivity. 6.0 System was much more subjective than CoP.

Back on topic. May I say that what Frank Carroll has said were all true? He shouldn't have said them about other skaters though. It has truly made him a famous grumpy old man.

Also, in this case, the order of the outcome wouldn't have changed had the judges followed Carroll's advice.

 

[gkelly]

I'm not particularly against this notion. Just want to point out that more freedom means more subjectivity. 6.0 System was much more subjective than CoP.

That's very true, and there will always need to be a tradeoff between, on the one hand, quantifiable and yes-no decisions that give credit for just doing something and not for failing to do it, and on the other hand more qualitative assessments that consider how well something was done, that combine many variables into one number

6.0 was all about combining many variables into one number, subjective assessments of most of the variables and then subjective opinions about how to weight them against each other.

IJS breaks out a most of the quantifiable data into individual numbers, but then everything else is still subjective.

However, if it just comes down to making the free skate more free by giving skaters more discretion in what elements they perform to earn points, that can be done by tweaking the Well-Balanced Program rules without losing any of the objectivity that currently exists in Scale of Values.

For example, senior ladies are currently required/allowed to do the following elements for points, no more and loss of point opportunities if they do less:

7 jumping passes (must include axel jump, 3 combos or sequences, max one 3-jump combo, Zayak restrictions on repeats)
3 spins (must include combo spin, flying spin, spin in one position, all most have different codes)
1 step sequence
1 choreo spiral sequence (which now can include only 1 spiral position held for 6 seconds)

Total 12 elements.

Suppose we rewrite the requirements to something like the following:

Maximum 12 elements (I'd prefer to make it 13 and give them a little more time)

Jumping passes: minimum 5, maximum 8 (same requirements and restrictions)
Spins: minimum 2, maximum 5 (same requirements -- either the combo spin or the spin in one position can fly if the skater only does 2 spins; all must have different codes)
Step sequences: minimum 1, maximum 2 (second is "choreo" sequence w/o level)
Miscellaneous: maximum 2 different types (these could include choreo or leveled spiral sequence, field moves sequence, school figure variations, etc.)

So the minimum requirements would be 5 jump passes, 2 spins, and 1 step sequence -- 8 required elements. The other 4 or 5 elements would be the skater's choice. The skater knows what the base values are for the elements they choose to attempt, so they can plan accordingly.

That would give them the flexibility to choose elements that highlight their individual strengths and/or that fit the music and program theme. There would be multiple possible ways to set up a free program.

As it is now, they all do 2 more jumps, 1 more spin, and a choreo spiral sequence because those are the only other elements that are allowed.

 

[Dragonlady]

We need to see programs judged more critically with regards to how effectively every single movement works with the performance, interpretation, and choreography. The only way for programs to be judged like that is to have judges who can comprehend and synthesize this myriad complexity. They need to be educated better and they need to be tested more rigorously.

From reading your posts, one would think that the ISU is judging a choreography competition. They're not. They don't really care to any great degree about choreography except in the most superficial way. The judges are not trained or educated in matters of choreography or performance because these are not important considerations to the ISU. Skaters who land big tricks get big points and a boost in PCS. Big tricks don't improve choreography or performance except that for the WOW factor of the big trick itself. Often the set up for the big trick actually detracts from the choreography but the PCS scores go up all the same. The judges are former skaters, not dancers.

You emphasize choreography and performance as the most important aspects of competitive skating. The judging system does not.

 

[Spun Silver]

Re: Blades' recommendations for judging actual performance rather than rep... practically speaking the judges would need a lot more time than they have to discard rep as a guideline.

When I grade papers, I lean on rep (student's past performance) to some extent and so does my husband, a long-time professor. It seems unavoidable. You have a certain baseline for each student if you see a couple examples of their work -- a broad idea of where they stand in relation to other students in the class and to the ideal if you're a Platonist. You can't be bound by that because even good students can do lazy work, but it's a guideline and helps you classify that stack of papers without taking all week. I think skating is not entirely different.

And in response to Blades' critique of current footwork, I would like to know who really likes one-footed footwork? We are seeing an awful lot of it and most of it looks really stupid to me, like the balance exercises I do in my kitchen.

I am happier about all the flying sit spins this season, but in general it's a bad idea to overdo even the best moves IMO. We need more variety in choreography and less of a "throw the paint can at the canvas" mentality.

 

[Dragonlady]

gkelly, I understand what you're proposing but I fear that regardless of what sort of flexibility you give the skaters, they're always going to go for the maximum number of jumping passes allowed because that's where they can get the most points. And skaters who don't use all of their jumping passes are putting themselves at an extreme disadvantage (see Johnny Weir). It's like spotting the opposition points. Given options, the skaters will opt for that which scores the most points and that would be the jumps.

 

[gkelly]

gkelly, I understand what you're proposing but I fear that regardless of what sort of flexibility you give the skaters, they're always going to go for the maximum number of jumping passes allowed because that's where they can get the most points. And skaters who don't use all of their jumping passes are putting themselves at an extreme disadvantage (see Johnny Weir). It's like spotting the opposition points. Given options, the skaters will opt for that which scores the most points and that would be the jumps.

Then we'd be no worse off than in the current situation, but the occasional Lucinda Ruh or Yuka Sato could find other ways to maximize her points without maxing the jumps.