Men's Free Program, Sat. Nov. 12 at 10:55 pm EST

[jenaj]

This is a competition, not Star on Ice. As for Chan's not in the same league as Tak, that's definitely your own view because I'm sure many will disagree with that statement.

Only a very small number of skaters have been able to perform while they compete: Kwan, Yagudin, Kurt Browning, John Curry, Janet Lynn, Yu Na Kim, off the top of my head. Chan is not in that group, in my opinion.

 

[Art&Sport]

That's mighty generous of you to let Chan compete for bronze or 4th, shouldn't he be behind even Adam Rippon?

Yes, of course, if Rippon hopefully makes the U.S. team for Worlds. Chan is obviously stronger than Rippon in SS, quad jumps, reputation and experience. But even Rippon trumps Chan in artistic ability and musicality.

My point is that Dai and Jeremy have the best programs this season, and clearly are superior in artistry IMHO. Meanwhile, its been written in stone that Chan has the best SS, now backed up with quads, so that simply makes him unbeatable even with mistakes, in the minds of the judges, Canada, and his many fans. It may be surprising, but Chan still needs to develop artistry and musicality. He’s not quite there yet.

And along with developing more artistry, Chan should look to Dai to try and learn more humility.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Yes, of course, if Rippon hopefully makes the U.S. team for Worlds. Chan is obviously stronger than Rippon in SS, quad jumps, reputation and experience. But even Rippon trumps Chan in artistic ability and musicality.

My point is that Dai and Jeremy have the best programs this season, and clearly are superior in artistry IMHO. Meanwhile, its been written in stone that Chan has the best SS, now backed up with quads, so that simply makes him unbeatable even with mistakes, in the minds of the judges, Canada, and his many fans. It may be surprising, but Chan still needs to develop artistry and musicality. He’s not quite there yet.

And along with developing more artistry, Chan should look to Dai to try and learn more humility.

However, it is not written in stone that Chan is inferior in musicality and artistry to Takahashi, Abbott, and Rippon. Neither is your announcement that Daisuke and Abbott have the best programs this season. Many fans and judges beg to differ.

 

[fscric]

Yes, of course, if Rippon hopefully makes the U.S. team for Worlds. Chan is obviously stronger than Rippon in SS, quad jumps, reputation and experience. But even Rippon trumps Chan in artistic ability and musicality.

My point is that Dai and Jeremy have the best programs this season, and clearly are superior in artistry IMHO. Meanwhile, its been written in stone that Chan has the best SS, now backed up with quads, so that simply makes him unbeatable even with mistakes, in the minds of the judges, Canada, and his many fans. It may be surprising, but Chan still needs to develop artistry and musicality. He’s not quite there yet.

And along with developing more artistry, Chan should look to Dai to try and learn more humility.

 

[Tonichelle]

Only a very small number of skaters have been able to perform while they compete: Kwan, Yagudin, Kurt Browning, John Curry, Janet Lynn, Yu Na Kim, off the top of my head. Chan is not in that group, in my opinion.

not sure I'd have Yuna in there (or Kwan) without Chan... but I agree Dai reminds me a lot more of the others mentioned than Chan.

 

[Art&Sport]

However, it is not written in stone that Chan is inferior in musicality and artistry to Takahashi, Abbott, and Rippon. Neither is your announcement that Daisuke and Abbott have the best programs this season. Many fans and judges beg to differ.

If that's the case, then nothing should be written in stone ... and that's my point, which maybe you missed along with the sarcasm. Altho' fscric seemed to at least be moved to laughter.

Whatever! I think Dai, Jeremy, and even Adam have great programs. Sad to say I have a hard time watching Chan anymore b/c why bother if he's so far and above everyone else? It's a foregone conclusion and the real excitement lies elsewhere. Give me a D, give me a A, give me a I, that's DAI ... and I hope he cleans Chan's Klook at Worlds, or rather beats Chan with Blues for Klook! But no matter if Chan prevails b/c his SS are so high and mighty, Dai is still the superior artiste, especially with his programs this season, and so is Jeremy.

 

[genki]

However, it is not written in stone that Chan is inferior in musicality and artistry to Takahashi, Abbott, and Rippon. Neither is your announcement that Daisuke and Abbott have the best programs this season. Many fans and judges beg to differ.

Is that so? Chan looks much weaker to me too in artistry and musicality. When I watch Chan's skating, I am very much impressed with his SS , and big quads for sure and I thing about the score too, but it is still a sports. It never goes beyond that. However, when I watch what people call " artistic skaters" whether it is Takahashi, Lambiel, Abbot , I forget about scores, I forget about it is on the ice, and basically feel kind of spacy afterwards.
It just grabs me at my heart. I guess many people feel that way after watching these skaters, especially this year's Takahashi's program. Just irresistible.

I believe that Judges finally started to reward IN,PE, CHO. I love figure skating because it is a sports with artistry. If I just want to watch big jumps and spins, I may watch some other sports like track and field. I had a feeling that Dai's IN,PE,CHO were not rewarded enough before, so this time I am very happy with the score. Finally he got what he deserves.:thumbsup:

 

[Bluebonnet]

Is that so? Chan looks much weaker to me too in artistry and musicality. When I watch Chan's skating, I am very much impressed with his SS , and big quads for sure and I thing about the score too, but it is still a sports. It never goes beyond that. However, when I watch what people call " artistic skaters" whether it is Takahashi, Lambiel, Abbot , I forget about scores, I forget about it is on the ice, and basically feel kind of spacy afterwards.
It just grabs me at my heart. I guess many people feel that way after watching these skaters, especially this year's Takahashi's program. Just irresistible.

I believe that Judges finally started to reward IN,PE, CHO. I love figure skating because it is a sports with artistry. If I just want to watch big jumps and spins, I may watch some other sports like track and field. I had a feeling that Dai's IN,PE,CHO were not rewarded enough before, so this time I am very happy with the score. Finally he got what he deserves.:thumbsup:

Chan is an athlete first. I agree. But he has sufficent artistry and musicality to back him up and take him to the top. Does that matter whether or not he is the most artistic skater in the world? No! The most artistic skater couldn't be guaranteed to be the best competitor, while the best athletic abilities with sufficent artistry and musicality would be killer combination for a figure skater. Chan is one of the few who has such killer combination.:yes:

 

[jenaj]

not sure I'd have Yuna in there (or Kwan) without Chan... but I agree Dai reminds me a lot more of the others mentioned than Chan.

This proves Kwan belongs there. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWQSoIEAxns
Yu Na is there partly to prove I'm not a total Kwan-uber. (Plus, she is a very good performer in competition--better than in her exhibitions, IMO)
I also forgot to add Midori Ito to the list--not so much because of her artistry but because she skated with freedom and joy.

 

[Mathman]

However, when I watch what people call "artistic skaters" whether it is Takahashi, Lambiel, Abbot , I forget about scores, I forget about it is on the ice, and basically feel kind of spacy afterwards.

I believe the official figure skating term is "voidy." Lambiel is voider than Joubert, Weir than Lysacek. :yes:

To me, Chan is like a virtuoso on the violin. I can't believe he can play so many notes so fast and with such aplomb. No one can out-virtuoso him in a violin-playing contest.

The only chance a rival fiddler has is to come in with superior depth of musical expression. Even then, the virtuoso will deserve high scores in performance and execution (along with skating skills and the rest.) The artist takes choreography, interpretation, and voidiness.

(Michelle always had the advantage over her rivals in the component score "Kwanliness." )

 

[Olympia]

Only a very small number of skaters have been able to perform while they compete: Kwan, Yagudin, Kurt Browning, John Curry, Janet Lynn, Yu Na Kim, off the top of my head. Chan is not in that group, in my opinion.

I second everyone on that list, and I add Mao Asada and Toller Cranston. Cranston generally either won the long programs or came in second. It was school figures that kept him down. So his lack of international golds doesn't keep him off this list for me.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

If that's the case, then nothing should be written in stone ... and that's my point, which maybe you missed along with the sarcasm. Altho' fscric seemed to at least be moved to laughter.

Whatever! I think Dai, Jeremy, and even Adam have great programs. Sad to say I have a hard time watching Chan anymore b/c why bother if he's so far and above everyone else? It's a foregone conclusion and the real excitement lies elsewhere. Give me a D, give me a A, give me a I, that's DAI ... and I hope he cleans Chan's Klook at Worlds, or rather beats Chan with Blues for Klook! But no matter if Chan prevails b/c his SS are so high and mighty, Dai is still the superior artiste, especially with his programs this season, and so is Jeremy.

Takahashi just poosted the highest score of the season and beat the WSM by 22 points (Chan's margin's last year.). Chan just barely beat the guy who ranked tenth in the world. How is your take home message that there is no competition?

 

[Buttercup]

I believe the official figure skating term is "voidy." Lambiel is voider than Joubert, Weir than Lysacek. :yes:

No, that's not what it means - a skater can be artistic without being voidy. Voidiness refers more to the wackiness/originality/strangeness of the artistic concept and the skater's commitment to it. Menshov has voidy programs this season. Blanc/Bouquet in ice dance were like the voidiest team ever (this was largely Karine Arribert's doing). Lambiel's infamous cat exhibition was voidy, but many of his programs weren't; e.g. Poeta is just really awesome - not voidy.

Patrick Chan is definitely not voidy, so on that much we can agree

 

[Tonichelle]

I believe the official figure skating term is "voidy." Lambiel is voider than Joubert, Weir than Lysacek. :yes:

No, that's not what it means - a skater can be artistic without being voidy. Voidiness refers more to the wackiness/originality/strangeness of the artistic concept and the skater's commitment to it. Menshov has voidy programs this season. Blanc/Bouquet in ice dance were like the voidiest team ever (this was largely Karine Arribert's doing). Lambiel's infamous cat exhibition was voidy, but many of his programs weren't; e.g. Poeta is just really awesome - not voidy.

Patrick Chan is definitely not voidy, so on that much we can agree

More proof that those of us who live on GS and don't venture out much should not try to use FSU terms!

 

[dorispulaski]

The FSU term comes from a interview Chris Dean gave when he was describing developing this pro program of Torvill & Dean's:

To Venus, Bringer of Peace from Holst's the Planets.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ps_vdkG7Ns4

from FSU's FAQ
http://www.fsuniverse.net/faq.html

It stems from me and sharps watching old documentary about T&D where we pee'd ourselves laughing at the following quote from Chris, which he said, erm, very dramatically "....and suddenly, we found ourselves in this...hole...this huge, big VOID !! We could do anything we wanted to, our only limits were our own imagination !! It's like floating free, it's like being in outer space !!"

"So we use the term "Voidy" to describe anything in skating which is a drama fest ala Dean. You know the sort of thing, angst expressions, hands outstretch, weird programs with weird music, skaters who clearly think they are skating as ar-TEESTES and creating an arty masterpiece...it's all "voidy"

I don't know who the "me" in the above quote is...except that it is not me

The "sharps" is Sharpie, the owner of the FSU site.

 

[Spun Silver]

So would S/S (pairs) FS this season be an example of voidiness or awesomeness?

Daisuke's FS I assume is just awesome.

 

[Buttercup]

The FSU term comes from a interview Chris Dean gave when he was describing developing this pro program of Torvill & Dean's

Just looking at how it's used on FSU and other sites, the term has definitely evolved, though - the angsty drama fest component isn't as big these days. Certainly that's not what Blanc/Bouquet (widely acknowledged on FSU as super-voidy) were doing.

Spun Silver: I'd say awesome, not voidy.

 

[dorispulaski]

It depends on whether you think S&S were trying to be "ar-TEESTES and creating an arty masterpiece"

and yes, so far, I'm afraid that's what they are doing. I hope it develops into awesome later

 

[Art&Sport]

Chan is an athlete first. I agree. But he has sufficent artistry and musicality to back him up and take him to the top. Does that matter whether or not he is the most artistic skater in the world? No! The most artistic skater couldn't be guaranteed to be the best competitor, while the best athletic abilities with sufficent artistry and musicality would be killer combination for a figure skater. Chan is one of the few who has such killer combination.:yes:

All skaters have to be athletes first, or they won't reach the top ranks. "Sufficient artistry," wow, well I suppose so since everyone who loves him seems mesmerized by his "superior" SS (carved in ice; written in stone), the judges most of all. I certainly give Chan credit for landing quads and having high level ss, but he still has miles to go to be more competitive with his artistic presentation skills, which are not great, and his SS should not take the place of true artistry either! When Chan makes glaring mistakes, fine he should still receive fairly high PCS, but not marks through the roof. Other skaters do not always receive an equal benefit when they make mistakes. You would argue, b/c "Chan's SS are so superior." My argument is Chan should not be receiving a 20-point advantage over his competitors before he even takes the ice. He does receive this figuratively b/c it is like "written in stone" that he's supposed to be better than everyone else with all the hype, the Canadian press, Patrick himself, fawning broadcasters, and the movers and shakers looking for another "savior" to represent the sport ever since they failed to recognize how they could have promoted Michelle Kwan and her excellence to lift the sport to higher recognition and appeal, and thus bring new sources of revenue.

Chan still has a lot of maturing to do. And yes, I would like to see a competition. When Kwan skated, even with her legendary consistency, the judges and the media seemed to always be wanting to find someone else to beat her b/c they didn't seem to like her dominating. But she dominated through her consistency. Still it was always a competition when she skated, not a coronation. She wasn't perfect, but she maximized all of her skills and she had courage, fire, desire, and above all amazing consistency, which helped revolutionize the sport. I don't see any of that in Patrick. It's as if he feels entitled. Only recently has he himself tended to tone down the rhetoric about his "superior" assets.

 

[Spun Silver]

So voidy = campy, as far as I can tell.