ITA I keep hoping more Latin feel will come into the programs as the season progresses ... but we are almost at GP final ... so I guess I just keep hoping.
Short Dance, Fri. 11/25 at 11:20 am EST
- Thread starter Spun Silver
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Anyone noticed Judge #4's marks for D/W? Three +3 and two +2 for GOE and PCS as follows: 9.50, 9.75, 9.50, 10.0, 10.0
Looking at the scores received by W/P & others and the other judges' marks for D/W, these sets of numbers seem way out of the ballpark. I hope that judge isn't American or else this will most likely be cited for national bias and get reprimanded.
Looking at the scores received by W/P & others and the other judges' marks for D/W, these sets of numbers seem way out of the ballpark. I hope that judge isn't American or else this will most likely be cited for national bias and get reprimanded.
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I was surprised as well that D/W did not lose more points. Overall in this event and the men's, I was quite surprised by the lack of a home field judging advantage. Not so sure re: ladies although I haven't seen it yet.
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- Mar 14, 2006
Q for skaters: if he "caught a rut," does that in any way reflect on his technique? It sounds like simple bad luck.
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- Jun 3, 2009
1. I'm more annoyed by B/S' marks. They got HAMMERED on the levels - both Rhumbas were level two as was the step sequence. I thought they were gifted on the PCS, though - these guys are not 34-level skaters at all. Ridiculous.
2. W/P screwed up the second Rhumba sequence (level two). But I will say that I'm seeing a lot more confidence from these two (Andrew in particular) and I'm glad.
3. Both V/M and D/W are receiving the benefit of the doubt re: GOES and PCS, but those marks are definitely a little high.
2. W/P screwed up the second Rhumba sequence (level two). But I will say that I'm seeing a lot more confidence from these two (Andrew in particular) and I'm glad.
3. Both V/M and D/W are receiving the benefit of the doubt re: GOES and PCS, but those marks are definitely a little high.
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- Nov 19, 2010
The Brits were just speculating on a possibility. I don't think luck is factored into judges' evaluation.
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- Nov 3, 2006
Great skate for W/P ! Hope they keep it rolling for the FD..Little bit scrambly for D/W..but flukes do occur , now and then. I prefer the dress Meryl wore at SA. They may feel this one suits their music better( more modern than classic Latin ) , but the other is more flattering...this is just picking the tiniest nit, because I've never seen Meryl in a bad costume..
Quite apart from their skating ... Because B/S's program doesn't feel very Latin to me , it really doesn't help that her costume doesn't look Latin either.
R/T are beginning to breathe down B/S' neck . Look out next year. Like the costumes ,not really keen on the program.
Quite apart from their skating ... Because B/S's program doesn't feel very Latin to me , it really doesn't help that her costume doesn't look Latin either.
R/T are beginning to breathe down B/S' neck . Look out next year. Like the costumes ,not really keen on the program.
Well, considering that the score is 69, I think there's a very good possibility it's a joke.
When you sit through the earlier programs, D/W are so superior to the others, stumble or not, that their marks are well deserved. D/W's SD seemed amazingly short, while most of the others seemed to go on and on interminably. I guess that's because the others are at half speed compared with D/W.
To be realistic, judges very likely award GOE based in part on conditions under which skaters are competing. To pull themselves together after such a freak fall whhich happened virtually right before their first element and then complete all of them relatively error free is a pretty impressive feat. The judges were likely impressed by that accomplishment as most teams would have made a hash of the rest of the program. And let's be clear. Their elements were the strongest of the event. The fall was on a non scored element.
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- Feb 3, 2011
It's hardly a joke.
He didn't fall on an element, which means he basically just fell when they were doing transitions. And when you watch them compared to the others, it is so clear that the only competitors they have are Virtue/Moir. They are soo much better than the rest of the teams in this competition. Remember, had they not fallen this program would most likely have recieved 71-72 points. 
By giving D/W 10's in PCS there is a real no one is allowed to beat them except VM ever feeling. I wish that W/P got B/S PCS so it would have been a little closer. Clear and obvious stumble doesn't mean no 10's? It wasn't a technical element that the clear and obvious stumble happened to it was a PCS stumble not a TES stumble.
I agree with people who said that Score is high. D/W is usually a very strong team, but not at this comp. There is a clear stumble and also Charyl looked like he was difficulty in catching up with her through the entire program.
Their actual performance should be judged, not what they have done before.
I dislike this system more and more these days, because they do not punish glaring mistakes enough.
Their actual performance should be judged, not what they have done before.
I dislike this system more and more these days, because they do not punish glaring mistakes enough.
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- Nov 19, 2010
A skater may be lucky or unlucky where a fluke fall happens. In a transition, besides the fall deduction, the effect is not serious. If it incurs .25 less in TR, it will be no more than .50 when factored. In 2010 Worlds, Oda fell after his 2A was well landed, supposedly due to a rut, but unfortunately for him, because it was so close to the jump, he received negative GOE on the 2A. The footwork immediately after was taken out as well because he took too long to recover and there was no space between the elements. Chan had a fall in his Step Sequence in TEB which received practically no points as a result, whereas his fluke fall at SC didn't incur direct deductions besides the -1 for the fall, but it negatively affected his 3Lz combo right after which he only salvaged partially.
Charlie's fall should receive -1 from the total and maybe a small deduction in TR, but the effect on the rest of program may be reflected in other PCS marks which had very high "BV" so they remained high relative to other skaters'.
Charlie's fall should receive -1 from the total and maybe a small deduction in TR, but the effect on the rest of program may be reflected in other PCS marks which had very high "BV" so they remained high relative to other skaters'.
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- Jul 26, 2003
For the record, no deduction was given for a fall, since Charlie's stumble did not meet the requirements for a fall-his butt did not hit the ice, nor did his knees or hands. It was during a transition, so the correct deduction would be under skating skills & linking footwork in PCS. And curiously enough, this is the only time I remember seeing a team's scores higher for all 3, choreo, perf & interp, than skating skills & linking movements, so it looks like some effort was made by judges to take the deduction.
The stumble
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulOzZgElf2k#t=1m4s
The protocols
http://www.isuresults.com/results/gprus2011/gprus2011_IceDance_SD_Scores.pdf
As to the judges, there are judges from both USA and RUS:
Judge No.1 Ms. Noriko SHIROTA JPN
Judge No.2 Ms. Sharon ROGERS USA
Judge No.3 Ms. Elena FOMINA RUS
Judge No.4 Mr. Garry HOPPE GBR
Judge No.5 Ms. Karen BUTCHER CAN
Judge No.6 Mr. Jean-Bernard HAMEL FRA
Judge No.7 Mr. Vladislav PETUKHOV UKR
Judge No.8 Mr. Attila SOOS HUN
Judge No.9 Ms. Laimute KRAUZIENE LTU
The protocols are arranged so you can no longer go down a column and say judge 8 was judging this or that way. The protocols are scrambled from skater to skater.
The shock in the protocols is the low TES of B&S. All 3 Russian teams got very similar TES, and R&T got the highest of the 3:
D&W 33.29
W&P 32.08
R&T 28.86
B&S 27.65
P&G 27.58
T&S 26.35
C&J 24.07
As to base score, the case of B&S is more surprising:
D&W 28.5
W&P 28.5
R&T 27.0
P&G 26.5
T&S 25.0
B&S 24.0
C&J 23.0
And in case you wondered, here's the tech panel:
Referee Mr. Christopher BUCHANAN ISU Great Britain
Technical Controller Ms. Ludmila MIKHAILOVSKAYA ISU Ukraine
Technical Specialist Mr. Andrzej DOSTATNI ISU (Poland)
Assistant Technical Specialist Mr. Tomas KIKA ISU SLO (Slovenia, I think?)
The stumble
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulOzZgElf2k#t=1m4s
The protocols
http://www.isuresults.com/results/gprus2011/gprus2011_IceDance_SD_Scores.pdf
As to the judges, there are judges from both USA and RUS:
Judge No.1 Ms. Noriko SHIROTA JPN
Judge No.2 Ms. Sharon ROGERS USA
Judge No.3 Ms. Elena FOMINA RUS
Judge No.4 Mr. Garry HOPPE GBR
Judge No.5 Ms. Karen BUTCHER CAN
Judge No.6 Mr. Jean-Bernard HAMEL FRA
Judge No.7 Mr. Vladislav PETUKHOV UKR
Judge No.8 Mr. Attila SOOS HUN
Judge No.9 Ms. Laimute KRAUZIENE LTU
The protocols are arranged so you can no longer go down a column and say judge 8 was judging this or that way. The protocols are scrambled from skater to skater.
The shock in the protocols is the low TES of B&S. All 3 Russian teams got very similar TES, and R&T got the highest of the 3:
D&W 33.29
W&P 32.08
R&T 28.86
B&S 27.65
P&G 27.58
T&S 26.35
C&J 24.07
As to base score, the case of B&S is more surprising:
D&W 28.5
W&P 28.5
R&T 27.0
P&G 26.5
T&S 25.0
B&S 24.0
C&J 23.0
And in case you wondered, here's the tech panel:
Referee Mr. Christopher BUCHANAN ISU Great Britain
Technical Controller Ms. Ludmila MIKHAILOVSKAYA ISU Ukraine
Technical Specialist Mr. Andrzej DOSTATNI ISU (Poland)
Assistant Technical Specialist Mr. Tomas KIKA ISU SLO (Slovenia, I think?)
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If you look at the protocol, D/W who usually have nothing but 2 and 3 for GOE, received only +3 from one single judge for all of their elements. Their three +3 came from one judge alone and they better hope that judge isn't American or else being so far out of the line can lead to accusation of national bias. An argument can also be made they skated below their standard that 8 of the 9 judges really weren't that impressed. They also received more 0 than they have of +3. So no, I don't think they were that overwhelmed, frankly, I wasn't either.
I respectfully disagree with your opinion that the stumble only affects SS and TR of PCS. The rules are very clear about major stumbles that affect the unison in Ice Dance and that both the PE and IN (which includes Timing in Ice Dance) should also reflect the error, depending on the severity. The fact that there was a noticeable loss of unison means that at least 4 of the 5 area in PCS should be affected. The impact on CH is a little more uncertain because it depends on how the judge evaluates the disruption to the composition of the dance and could in theory, determines that the impact was insignificant. But in areas where unison is explicitly mentioned, it is shocking to see a judge give out 10 for Interpretation/Timing when even a bird can tell the timing of that dance is not perfect, far from it.
As for PE, CH and IN being higher than SS and TR - contrary to your belief, which is not correct, PE, CH and IN are usually higher than SS and TR. Here are the proofs:
http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpfra2011/SEG007.HTM
http://www.isuresults.com/results/gprus2011/SEG007.HTM
Of the 15 teams that skated their SD in the last two GP events, more than half - that is 8 teams out of 15 have higher PE, CH, and IN than either of their SS and TR marks. In Moscow, 5 of the 7 teams are scored as such, the ratio is very high. It is actually quite common to see the softer aspects of PCS being given higher marks than the more technical aspects when it comes to Ice Dance. Even in Singles, TR tends to be much lower than the other components or judges being the most strict about it. So it is impossible to conclude whether any deductions have been taken against D/W, and looking at the marks, I can't tell either but I know one judge didn't take any deductions because if he/she had, D/W would have gotten all 10s.
I never said overwhelmed. That's your word. I said the judges were likely impressed by their effort. That does not imply that they would have received +3s across the board. It implies that the judges might look somewhat favorably on the rest of the program, which they did. I can read a protocol sheet too. It makes sense that some of their GOE was lower than normal, and should actually refute some of the silly conspiracy or pre-judging talk some are putting forth. (BTW, if one judge was out of line, so be it. It was only a matter of margin and enthusiasm, not placement. It's certainly not the first time nor the last time a top skater will get a generous set of scores.) As Doris pointed out, they did appear to take some sort of PCS hit for skating skills and transitions. Just because it was not their usual standard, does not mean it was not good or better than their competition. Part of being a strong competitor is shaking off errors in order to produce the effort you train for every day. They still had the highest GOE of any team and they won PCS by a very healthy margin. Was it perfect? No. As ImaginaryPogue summed it up, solid but scratchy at the start.
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