Rachael Flatt tries to work out kinks

[pangtongfan]

Here's what Rachael landed at 2011 Nationals:
2a+3t<, 2z, 3f, 3z+2t 3f+2t+2lo, 3lo, 3s----that's 5 triples, and 59.46 TES


Alissa:
3z+2t, 3f, 3t+2t+2lo, 3lo<, 3z+2t, 2a, 3t----5 triples, and 64.19 TES


Mirai:
3z+2t, 2a+2t, 3f(e), 3z<, 3t+2t+2lo, 3lo, 2a---4 triples, and 53.45 TES (she lost all credit for one of her spins)

Ashley:
3f+2t, 2a+3t<, 3z+2t+2lo, 3lo, 2a, 3f<fall, 3t---4 triples, and 52.72 TES



The end result:
191.24 62.50 128.74 2 1 Alissa
183.38 62.32 121.06 3 2 Rachael
177.25 63.35 113.90 1 3 Mirai
173.84 61.54 112.30 4 4 Agnes
167.20 58.43 108.77 5 6 Christina Gao
165.36 54.63 110.73 7 5 Ashley

Rachel stepped out of one of those triples at Nationals so only 4 relatively clean triples just like I said. You can say all you want but the fact is Flatt would have been lucky to get a 110 at Worlds for that same program the U.S judges gave her a ridiculous score over 120 for, which means she was clearly held up. She was visibly overscored in both PCS and GOE.

After last years Worlds debacle I am pretty sure the USFSA's love affair with Flatt is now over. The only way she will make the World team is if she clearly earns it, and that is all but impossible the way she is skating now even if she has one of her better outings at Nationals and others falter.

 

[pangtongfan]

It's laughable Flatt could beat Mirai and Ashley by a margin of between 8 and 10 points at the last nationals. The U.S. judges are obviously on another planet.

Very true. Everyone at the time was talking about Flatt's scores at Nationals, even in 2010 they were (although she did atleast skate excellently in 2010). They were probably the biggest topic of the whole event. What is most laughable and indicates just how far Flatt was overmarked, is the protocals suggest Flatt could have beaten Czisny last year if she had skated cleanly which considering how well Czisny skated and that her quality is on another planet is simply outrageous.

This year the international judges are sending a firm message, and the USFSA sent their own with their fine of Flatt after the Worlds debacle last year. You wont see something like last year happen again this time guaranteed.

 

[Mrs. P]

Rachel stepped out of one of those triples at Nationals so only 4 relatively clean triples just like I said. You can say all you want but the fact is Flatt would have been lucky to get a 110 at Worlds for that same program the U.S judges gave her a ridiculous score over 120 for, which means she was clearly held up. She was visibly overscored in both PCS and GOE.

After last years Worlds debacle I am pretty sure the USFSA's love affair with Flatt is now over. The only way she will make the World team is if she clearly earns it, and that is all but impossible the way she is skating now even if she has one of her better outings at Nationals and others falter.

But the thing is Mirai did not really help her case either. She got zero points on a SPIN - one of her best elements. She was clearly really unfocused that day and I think that she did not deserve to rank over Rachael THAT day, even though Rachael did not give her best performance. The fact is that if Mirai simply did the spin, she would have been second and got that second Worlds berth.

And I don't think Mirai would have gotten a much better score internationally for that subpar performance. The judges only reward her when she is clean. They are more than willing to put her down a few points if she doesn't. (see: Skate Canada 2011).

 

[burntBREAD]

But the thing is Mirai did not really help her case either. She got zero points on a SPIN - one of her best elements. She was clearly really unfocused that day and I think that she did not deserve to rank over Rachael THAT day, even though Rachael did not give her best performance. The fact is that if Mirai simply did the spin, she would have been second and got that second Worlds berth.

And I don't think Mirai would have gotten a much better score internationally for that subpar performance. The judges only reward her when she is clean. They are more than willing to put her down a few points if she doesn't. (see: Skate Canada 2011).

Mirai would not have beat Rachael with the spin + GOE. She probably would have received around 4 points for the spin (base value around 3, I'll give generous GOE of +1), and still would have scored 117, not enough because Rachael was very close after the short.

Mirai would not have gotten a better score at all, she would definitely have gotten a lower score. I'm not sure if it's about how clean she is while she skates, because technically she was relatively clean in SC (one underrotation, messed up spin, edge call) and in COC (two underrotations, edge calls). I think it's determined by the way she skates the program, because it was lifeless at SC.

 

[pangtongfan]

Who cares if Mirai would have received a better score (and for the record I dont think at all she would have received a better score than she got for that skate anywhere else). I was not talking about Nagasu's score in the first place. What anyone sane knows, and what I was pointing out, is Flatt would have scored 10-15 points lower for the same performance in front of an international panel. She would have likely lost to Nagasu as well, even with Nagasu' problems, and if she did beat her it would have been by only 1-2 points. As I mentioned the protocals suggest Flatt would have beaten Czisny had she gone clean. Comical.

In some cases it might be wise to hold certain skaters up at Nationals. Flatt is not one of those cases. In fact by 2011 they were already at the point skaters with higher scoring potential and more promise should be getting the "benefit of doubt" in any close situation if they are smart. Of course last year the USFSA and U.S judges werent smart, inexplicably holding up and overscoring a declining skater who had already maxed out her potential in 2009-2010 who was never going to do well at Worlds like Flatt; and got what they deserved for their poor judgement, a finish outside the top 10 for the 2nd U.S lady and only 2 women going to Worlds this year. Pretty much what most all of us knew was going to happen.

 

[Olympia]

Couldn't we just adopt Asada?

 

[gmyers]

The US federation has just made it clear that the only thing that counts in US nationals for worlds. It didn't even matter that Nagasu did the best at 4CC they aren't going to knock anyone off the team for any reason because US nationals is the one decider. Sure Nagasu for Flatt and Abbott for Minder made sense but they didn't earn it at nationals.

 

[skateflower]

Actually, they're not. All they have to do is judge the performances fairly that they see on that day. :yes:

But by what standards? Their past standard was obviously different from that set by the international judgets. Flatt gets killed by is international judges in goe and pcs these days which is a correct call IM/O. This means a clean Flatt won't be able to beat Ashley/Mirai if they make 2 jump mistakes. However, if American judges automatically pad +1, +2 to Flatt's elements including jumps(which is fairly 'normal' for skaters with 'good' reputation), she will have a chance to defeat Ashley/Mirai with flawed jumps.

 

[chuckm]

Rachel stepped out of one of those triples at Nationals so only 4 relatively clean triples just like I said. You can say all you want but the fact is Flatt would have been lucky to get a 110 at Worlds for that same program the U.S judges gave her a ridiculous score over 120 for, which means she was clearly held up. She was visibly overscored in both PCS and GOE.

After last years Worlds debacle I am pretty sure the USFSA's love affair with Flatt is now over. The only way she will make the World team is if she clearly earns it, and that is all but impossible the way she is skating now even if she has one of her better outings at Nationals and others falter.

Sorry, but then you have to take off Mirai's lip (her 3f got an "e") so that wasn't a clean jump either. That would bring Mirai's CLEAN triples down to 3.

And regardless of how Rachael skates, Mirai and Ashley have to skate well or they could fall behind some other skater who does bring it on the day.

Judges aren't pre-disposed to XXX anyone out just because that is the way Mirai and Ashley fans want it. Those ladies have to bring it when it counts or they will be left out again.

 

[chuckm]

Who cares if Mirai would have received a better score (and for the record I dont think at all she would have received a better score than she got for that skate anywhere else). I was not talking about Nagasu's score in the first place. What anyone sane knows, and what I was pointing out, is Flatt would have scored 10-15 points lower for the same performance in front of an international panel. She would have likely lost to Nagasu as well, even with Nagasu' problems, and if she did beat her it would have been by only 1-2 points. As I mentioned the protocals suggest Flatt would have beaten Czisny had she gone clean. Comical.

In some cases it might be wise to hold certain skaters up at Nationals. Flatt is not one of those cases. In fact by 2011 they were already at the point skaters with higher scoring potential and more promise should be getting the "benefit of doubt" in any close situation if they are smart. Of course last year the USFSA and U.S judges werent smart, inexplicably holding up and overscoring a declining skater who had already maxed out her potential in 2009-2010 who was never going to do well at Worlds like Flatt; and got what they deserved for their poor judgement, a finish outside the top 10 for the 2nd U.S lady and only 2 women going to Worlds this year. Pretty much what most all of us knew was going to happen.

Please. Show me a National event where the skaters AREN'T overscored with respect to their international scores. Scoreflation is the norm for nationals, whether in the US, Canada, France, Russia or anywhere else.

At the French Masters this fall, Pechalat / Bourzat scored a total 179.72 (72.73 in SD, 106.99 in FD). That's about 15 points more than they scored at TEB (164.56; 66.52, 98.04).

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

In some cases it might be wise to hold certain skaters up at Nationals. Flatt is not one of those cases. In fact by 2011 they were already at the point skaters with higher scoring potential and more promise should be getting the "benefit of doubt" in any close situation if they are smart. Of course last year the USFSA and U.S judges werent smart, inexplicably holding up and overscoring a declining skater who had already maxed out her potential in 2009-2010 who was never going to do well at Worlds like Flatt; and got what they deserved for their poor judgement, a finish outside the top 10 for the 2nd U.S lady and only 2 women going to Worlds this year. Pretty much what most all of us knew was going to happen.

I think certain skaters are held up at Nationals, including Flatt but also skaters like Mirai, Alyssa, and Jeremy. You're right that we knew Rachel wouldn't do well at Worlds, but without her injury she would have easily been top 10. None of our skaters are Kwan; unlike her, our current crop of top skaters can finish on the podium or out of the top 10, so it's not as if any of our skaters are guaranteed to qualify us 3 skaters the following year. That's why I am a bit against holding up skaters who make errors at Nationals, because there is no reason to give them help when they cannot deliver at the most important competition of the year (as far as qualifying for international events).

 

[Mathman]

But by what standards?

I mean, the U.S. judges have no reason to pad anyone's score or to hope that this skater rather than that one makes the world team.

 

[pangtongfan]

I think certain skaters are held up at Nationals, including Flatt but also skaters like Mirai, Alyssa, and Jeremy. You're right that we knew Rachel wouldn't do well at Worlds, but without her injury she would have easily been top 10. None of our skaters are Kwan; unlike her, our current crop of top skaters can finish on the podium or out of the top 10, so it's not as if any of our skaters are guaranteed to qualify us 3 skaters the following year. That's why I am a bit against holding up skaters who make errors at Nationals, because there is no reason to give them help when they cannot deliver at the most important competition of the year (as far as qualifying for international events).

Rachel isnt injured now and she is barely coming top 10 in her grand prix events, let alone Worlds. I cant speak for everyone but I never expected her to come top 10 at Worlds last year before it began, and I had no idea she was injured until during/after the event. Anyway top 10 would not be enough to retain 3 spots which was the 2nd U.S skaters job, top 8 would have been needed.

You say all the U.S current crop can be on the podium or out of the top 10. That never applied to Flatt however, especialy not last year (heaven forbid now). Everyone knows there isnt a flying fig of a chance of her ever ending on the podium no matter how well she skates and how many other mistakes are made, but she is no longer a consistent, solid, or strong enough skater to count on for top 10 either.

The U.S has their method and as we saw last year it didnt work well for them as they were unable to gain 3 spots in either womens or mens with the suspect teams they sent.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Wouldn't it be funny if after all this, Flatt somehow made the top two at Nationals again?

 

[pangtongfan]

Wouldn't it be funny if after all this, Flatt somehow made the top two at Nationals again?

The U.S could prepare to have NO chance of regaining 3 spots then, and even a chance of dropping down to 1 if Czisny had an off event. They would deserve it for the sheer stupidity of even contemplating putting Flatt on the team this year too (which would be about 5 times worse an idea than last year), unless she lands 7 triples at Nationals and all the contenders land 3 or less that is, which since I dont think the USFSA is completely inept is probably what it would take for her to make the 2 women team this year (and even then they should demand a skate off for the sports at Four Continents to save their team).

 

[skateflower]

Wouldn't it be funny if after all this, Flatt somehow made the top two at Nationals again?

It would indeed be funny, if not sad. U.S. federation should and could send somebody else outside the top 2 to the worlds though. I'd send in Gracie Gold if she skates clean again at the Jr. Nationals. I doubt U.S. federation would do that though.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

I doubt she'd accept.

 

[Mrs. P]

Probably worth noting she was 8th after the SP at Worlds. And that was with a double lutz. She simply had to just hold on to that position to get the 3 spots.

Obviously she didn't, but I only pointed that result to say that Rachael was capable of being in the top 10 in Worlds last year, injured or otherwise.

She's had a terrible GP season this year, yes, but that's not always indicative of how one does later in the season. If so than Ashley Wagner would have gone to the Olympics in 2010. And Mao Asada had a terrible GP last year, but still managed to be second at Japanese Nationals and 4CC.

But Rachael isn't Mao, you say. True, but I make that point that you never count anyone out. (Nor should you guarantee anyone in.)

And from my personal view I have never understood the vitriol some people have for Rachael. For her sake, I hope she doesn't read the message boards because they are are quite demoralizing. She has the right to compete. And she doesn't really have any control where she places other than what she brings to the ice.

 

[skateflower]

And from my personal view I have never understood the vitriol some people have for Rachael. For her sake, I hope she doesn't read the message boards because they are are quite demoralizing. She has the right to compete. And she doesn't really have any control where she places other than what she brings to the ice.

I don't hold any grudge against Flatt. I just don't care much about her skating. I think her skating is mediocre to say the least. To some other people, it's about 'package'. These people want her to do makeup in a certain way. Obviously, Rachael has not taken their 'beauty' advice, thus the vitriol. These haters are quite shallow.

 

[Mrs. P]

I don't hold any grudge against Flatt. I just don't care much about her skating. I think her skating is mediocre to say the least. To some other people, it's about 'package'. These people want her to do makeup in a certain way. Obviously, Rachael has not taken their 'beauty' advice, thus the vitriol. These haters are quite shallow.

I wasn't point at you or anyone in particular.

I'm just saying that it seems that she's received a lot of fire compared to other skaters, even when she's doing relatively well.

It's one thing to say that you don't like her skating. It's fine to say that she was slow and out of shape (that I can agree with). It's another to repeat it again and again. It's also another thing to attack her looks/weight/etc.

It's also wrong to say that she should give up because of a few bad competitions or a few low scores.

Mirai has consistently not lived up to her potential, but nobody is saying she should quit. Why should Rachael?

And also I'm bothered that people thing that things were handed to Rachael. They were not.