Caroline Zhang - Can She Regain Her Spot Among The Top US Ladies?

[Spun Silver]

Sometimes all it takes to discern fitness is a pair of eyes, and I find it irksome to be told I can't tell if someone is a little overweight compared to other athletes. Plus, I spent enough time in a ballet studio to have a very acute gut-level sense of fitness levels.

I've been on this board for six years and have never seen anyone call Sarah Hughes (during her competitive years), Midori Ito, or even Tonya Harding big or fat. ("Even" Tonya because I've seen her referred to as muscular or recently as having large powerful thighs, but the references were not critical.)

 

[R.D.]

But I've been on the board for 10 years and HAVE seen some refer to S. Hughes as "big" and "fat". Especially around 2003 when she grew.


Let's just all agree to disagree and get back to Zhang...had I known the thread would head in this direction I wouldn't have even bothered, honestly.

And...HERE is the tweet I was referring to earlier re. CZhang's practice at 4CC:

https://twitter.com/#!/LynnRutherford/status/167633517340131328

Just caught Caroline Zhang's run-thru of free -- missed just one jump. Big double Axel at end. Looks very solid. #4CC

Interesting to see how she holds up compared to the other 2 Americans.

 

[Dragonlady]

If the right to comment on a skater were limited to those whose proficiency equals that of the skaters, there wouldn't be any fan boards. Fans comment on athletes' fitness all the time. Ever check out the word on CC Sabathia, among others?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204661604577185101342728264.html

I don't think the comparison is apt at all. The athletes being discussed are (a) male; (b) well above the average weight for their height; (c) over the age of 25; and (d) not dealing with puberty and growth issues affecting their playing ability. And the articles doesn't suggest that these guys are struggling to play well because they're fat. The issue of whether baseball is a sport if it can be played by guys who look like Prince Fielder has been around since Babe Ruth played ball.

Zhang is well below the average weight for her height. But some posters want to carp on her weight.

 

[ghislaine]

This thread has made me very sad. It is disingenous to compare skater body sizes to baseball players because baseball players do not use their bodies in the same way. It is impossible for an elite skater to be fat. It is cruel to call anyone heavy when they are indeed very small.

http://www.shutterfly.com/progal/slideshow.jsp?auto=0&aid=768a5498cf3af304803b&idx=18

This is a picture from Nationals. Caroline has big thighs but that is because she uses them. Her thigh muscles are large like a bodybuilder has large arms. Her waist is minute. The shape of her hips is due to her bones. She is not anywhere near out of shape or overweight.

There are times where I read boards and see people shouting about fat skaters and what they are really complaining about is that a skater has a large bust, or that they have naturally wide hips, or they have a plump cheeks. And I wonder, what would satisfy those people? Must Caroline cut off the sides of her hip bones or remove her breasts? Must she never eat again? Different people have different body shapes. Being "fit" produces not the same universal image.

 

[brightphoton]

The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

 

[Dragonlady]

Sometimes all it takes to discern fitness is a pair of eyes, and I find it irksome to be told I can't tell if someone is a little overweight compared to other athletes. Plus, I spent enough time in a ballet studio to have a very acute gut-level sense of fitness levels.

It's been my experience that dancers are the WORST people for thinking they're fat when they're not. Body dysmorphia is practically a job requirement. So no, I don't think you're really qualified to decide who is fat and who isn't.

 

[Spun Silver]

To put all this into perspective, here is the comment that aroused all these urgent calls to protect the skaters:

I noticed that Ashley was looking leaner and more muscular at Nationals. Agnes always looks to be in great shape.

This is people's idea of a post that endangers the wellbeing of skaters? Good grief. People are going way overboard.

Onto 4CCs. Good luck to Caroline and all the rest.

PS: Dragonlady, sorry I don't meet your qualifications. Maybe you should Ignore me as I have no intention of trying to follow your directions. Or feel free to spend your time following me around and criticizing me! I don't really care!

 

[Blades of Passion]

But I've been on the board for 10 years and HAVE seen some refer to S. Hughes as "big" and "fat". Especially around 2003 when she grew.

I can't believe anyone ever called S. Hughes fat before 2003.

In 2003 she WAS overweight in comparison to what she should have been for ideal competitive shape and it showed in her jumps.

Emily Hughes similarly did not pay perfect attention to her fitness level and it showed in competition. Yes, she has a larger frame in general, but there was more to it than that.

Eating disorders are made much worse when young, impressionable skaters go on message boards and post that Sally Skater is fat. Sally is already struggling with her body because puberty does that to an athlete and then she reads that on top of the problem that she can't do half the stuff she used to do, everyone is commenting that she's fat, and it sends her over the edge.

Last but not least, skaters read the board. People tell them not to but they do. How would you feel if all these strangers said you were fat. Kelly Osbourne has talked about the pain of reading people's comments on the internet.

So choose to be part of the solution and not part of the problem and ignore the issue.

As always, you choose the path of ignorance.

The PROBLEM is not people talking about these athletes being overweight, the problem is that these athletes are not receiving the eduction and motivation they need to practice the correct diet and exercise regimens in order to have ideal bodies (which is not to say any one specific body, but rather the ideal body for that individual).

Being a competitive athlete is about honing your body to the best it can be. It's not an easy thing; you have to give up many traditional foods and habits and want to push yourself every day. If these young ladies can not handle the pressure and the work required to be a competitive athlete, then they should not be one. There is absolutely no reason for us coddle these people and not speak the truth. Lack of proper nutrition and exercise is a big problem in society, especially in this age of terrible processed foods shoved down peoples' throats by businesses and people sitting around in offices all day and then going home and sitting on the couch. We need to address those issues in order for society to improve and competitive athletes certainly SHOULD be receiving flack for not maintaining ideal bodies. It's their JOB.

Most young people are naturally going to face body image issues with puberty (and not just girls, it's ridiculous how you insinuate that males don't have big personal issues in this regard as well) and that is something which needs to be thoroughly explained to them and they need proper guidance with. Once again, education is key and people are not getting it. Society needs to be more open and honest when it comes it talking about bodies and sexuality. Young people go through so much self-doubt and self-loathing as a result of parents and communities being too scared and/or uneducated and/or closed-minded to enlighten their children.

 

[R.D.]

This is people's idea of a post that endangers the wellbeing of skaters? Good grief. People are going way overboard.

Actually you have to go further back...almost to the beginning of the thread. It took a while to escalate, but this is where it all started (this is by the same poster BTW)

Post #9:

I have believed for some time now that Caroline's weight was her biggest issue. People talk about her slow speed, ugly mule-kick, poor edges and horrendous technique. But her speed, kick, edges and technique put her on 14 podiums. It was only when she gained weight that her problems started.

 

[PolymerBob]

I have been reading the reports at FSU. Ashley has been having trouble with two-foots. Richard has had rough practice sessions. Mao and Kanako look strong.

 

[Dragonlady]

Most young people are naturally going to face body image issues with puberty (and not just girls, it's ridiculous how you insinuate that males don't have big personal issues in this regard as well) and that is something which needs to be thoroughly explained to them and they need proper guidance with.

I am well aware of body issues for both sexes but boys to not generally have issues with anorexia or bulimia. Quite frankly, I think the last time someone commented on a male skater being "too fat" was when Artur Dimitriev was still competing and would turn up every fall overweight and out of shape and work himself back into shape over the course of the season. Artur hasn't competed since 1994. The greater danger for boys is trying to emulate the buff bodies of underwear models and turning to steriods to achieve that look. There is an epidemic of steriod abuse amongst high school boys in North America.

 

[PolymerBob]

Miss Mao's triple axel is in attendance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BizEYCkL87U&feature=youtu.be

 

[Spun Silver]

Actually you have to go further back...almost to the beginning of the thread. It took a while to escalate, but this is where it all started (this is by the same poster BTW)

Post #9:

Thanks. For me it's a question of truth. PB has a point, but there are counter-arguments as well and I personally don't have the expertise to "weigh in" on which is the root problem for Caroline. Apparently Caroline and her team agreed with him to at least some extent -- she has lost some weight as well as worked on her technique, and the combination is obviously working. It should also be noted that PB is Caroline's biggest fan, or at least the most loyal one I've seen on this forum. His criticism is always meant constructively.

Great post, Blades. (Apart from the first line; I haven't followed Dragonlady's posting history enough to make such a comment. )

 

[Olympia]

Miss Mao's triple axel is in attendance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BizEYCkL87U&feature=youtu.be

Yippee!

 

[R.D.]

Zhang was dealing with a growth spurt/body change. This is where I have the biggest problem with the weight discussion- it's one thing if athletes in their 20s and 30s are having issues with conditioning/staying in shape, but in something like skating, where peak performance often occurs in early to mid teens, weight gain and filling out is simply part of the growing process, it happens when you hit puberty around this age and it has NOTHING to do with fitness. You can't stay a kid forever. And if someone is brain-washed into thinking they're fat (on top of the struggles that come with adjusting to the new adult body), those thoughts can persist long afterwards and THAT is not healthy...

 

[R.D.]

There is an IN article on Zhang- for some reason won't let me post the link here, but here is a quick summary:

"Caroline was a child star, and it all came rather easily and quickly for her," said Peter Oppegard, who coaches Zhang with his wife, Karen Kwan-Oppegard, at the East West Ice Palace in Artesia, Calif.

"I feel she is kind of late at maturing, and I think she just kind of learned as she went. The body adjustments she had to make took time. Somewhere down the line, she started to make good choices, and I think she's making more and more good choices now."

[snip]

"I feel like I took a different approach to training for nationals and it turned out a lot better," Zhang, 18, said after her practice Wednesday. "I tried to attack my programs. Going out to the short program, I knew there was nothing for me to lose. I could just go out there and do the program I knew I could do."

[snip]

In San Jose, Zhang's increased speed and fit appearance led many to believe she had embraced a radically different exercise and diet regime, but that's not the case.

"I've been given that question many times," she said. "A lot of people have commented on it, but really I haven't put as much importance on it as a lot of other people seem to think I have. It was just something that came naturally with better training, and I really didn't pay attention to my weight so much. It was more, build muscle for better jumps."

"She's definitely dropped weight, but she's done it in a healthy way, and she's also worked on her fitness," Oppegard said. "Triple loop-triple loop is a very physical combination that not many people can do. So she's gone up to the gym, and it's paying off for her now."

[snip]

Whatever happens here, Zhang thinks her efforts over the past 12 months have put her on track for an even bigger comeback.

"I'm definitely happy with where my training is going right now," she said. "I hope to just take the momentum from this and build into next season. I would like to do better here than I did at nationals. I wasn't expecting an assignment, and to come here is just awesome."

Bold is emphasized by me, since it is directly relevant to the current discussion on Zhang in this thread

 

[PolymerBob]

Thanks. For me it's a question of truth. PB has a point, but there are counter-arguments as well and I personally don't have the expertise to "weigh in" on which is the root problem for Caroline. Apparently Caroline and her team agreed with him to at least some extent -- she has lost some weight as well as worked on her technique, and the combination is obviously working. It should also be noted that PB is Caroline's biggest fan, or at least the most loyal one I've seen on this forum. His criticism is always meant constructively.

Yes, thank you for the clarification. :thumbsup:

I'm glad Caroline has such a positive attitude. No I'm off to try to buy an IceNetwork pass to watch the event.

 

[Spun Silver]

Good for Caroline. Glad to hear she hasn't obsessed about her weight.

When I've lost weight, it's always been primarily through exercise. It's a lot healthier and more fun than dieting, for me anyway.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

It's easy to say anything we want anonymously on a message board.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Zhang was dealing with a growth spurt/body change. This is where I have the biggest problem with the weight discussion- it's one thing if athletes in their 20s and 30s are having issues with conditioning/staying in shape, but in something like skating, where peak performance often occurs in early to mid teens, weight gain and filling out is simply part of the growing process, it happens when you hit puberty around this age and it has NOTHING to do with fitness. You can't stay a kid forever. And if someone is brain-washed into thinking they're fat (on top of the struggles that come with adjusting to the new adult body), those thoughts can persist long afterwards and THAT is not healthy...

Zhang didn't just fill out via puberty in the autumn of 2010. She let herself go and as a result she got fatter. She is now in better condition and it's not because her body chemistry suddenly reversed itself.

The quote you bolded is misleading. It says she hasn't radically changed her regime. That doesn't mean there have been no changes at all. Even aside from any specific plan, it comes down to how much effort the athlete puts into it. If you're just going through the motions, you're not getting much done. She has been training better and working on her fitness more, as they stated. Hence, better body.

Maintaining a good body through puberty and a string of competitive disappointments may be difficult, but that's life. There are a lot of people with less of a support system than Caroline who have to face larger challenges. When you are a competitive athlete you get criticized and you either deal with it or you get out. Caroline put in focus and work that she needed to and, guess what, now she's doing better.

Nobody has responded to my point of how society needs better education on this subject. Not everybody needs to look like a supermodel, that needs to be made clear, but at the same time most people are less healthy than they should be. Similarly, kids going through their difficult body changes need to be given reassurance and assistance so that they can adapt. Too many kids suffer from acne or weight issues or other developments that freak them out and make them feel insecure as a result of adults not giving them the proper knowledge and assistance (and then kids bully each other about these issues because they are scared about their own issues and/or ignorant about other peoples' issues).

So, no, we absolutely should not ignore these problems in order to "make it easier" for the young person in question. By doing that, all we are doing is making it worse for them and making the World as a whole less informed place. Proper nutrition and exercise need to be taught and given real importance. The public needs to stop buying all of the unhealthy crap that corporations are selling. Why do you think people in France, including their teenagers, are significantly less fat than people in America? I assure you it's not because they go through puberty any less.