junior men - Short Program

[silverlake22]

Jeremy and Josh trained together for years under Tom Z. so it's not that surprising they seem similar. I think they have a similar body type, flexibility, and sensitivity to the music, so I understand where you are coming from. But, I also think Josh has a unique style, just like Jeremy does. I am impressed with how Josh manages to skate in such a light, elegant way, but still has power behind it. Like at the end of his FS here, when the music builds and he kept landing jump after jump and started to get really excited, there was a freedom and strength in his skating that left a big impression. He seemed like a powerful, confident man out on the ice instead of a nervous teenager trying so hard to not mess up. I found his FS stunning for these reasons and hope he can keep up the good work. He is a really bright and unique talent IMO and seeing as how he lost out on the title by less than half a point, I'm wondering if it's maybe a blessing in disguise. Now he can move up to seniors internationally without having so much pressure and attention on himself. The kid already obviously works very hard and is very driven to succeed. He seems like a good kid and I think he has a bright future ahead of him. I think it's cute how much he looks up to and loves training with Patrick.

 

[Bluebonnet]

Jeremy and Josh trained together for years under Tom Z. so it's not that surprising they seem similar. I think they have a similar body type, flexibility, and sensitivity to the music, so I understand where you are coming from.

Oh, I knew nothing about these and just google checked Ferris' background a few minutes ago and found out that he was from Colorado Springs. I was so good at identifying styles. Seriously, I agree that Ferris has his own unique style but he has Abbott's elegance and he can do transitions into jumps like Abbott. Seeing his skating, it almost confused me with senior competitions. Abbott does the same jump layout: 3F-3T, 3A, and 3Lz. Ferris did 3A, 3F-3T, and 3Lz. Training with Patrick Chan! What a privilage and inspiration!

 

[Art&Sport]

Does anyone think Joshua Ferris is a bit like young Jeremy Abbott? I think Ferris has a bright future. He is technically sound and artistically sufficiant. I'm looking forward to seeing him in seniors. Han Yan is very technical. I agree that he has a lot to improve in artistry and music interpretation. But I believe he'll get there. Jason Brown is sooo slowww!

I think Jeremy, Joshua Farris, and Jason (as well as Abbott and other U.S. men) all have their own unique movement styles. IMO, Joshua's smooth, lyrical style that he displays this season is more reminiscent of Johnny Weir's smooth elegance, than it is of Jeremy's unique way of moving. Prior to this season, I think under Tom Z, Joshua's style emphasized the athletic aspect of his skating. Since leaving Tom Z, his new coaches have helped bring out more of the lyrical, refined quality of Joshua's skating. Josh's sp skate to Clair de Lune is very "romantic" and that is how Johnny Weir described it too during his commentary for Icenetwork.

I have to laugh tho' at your perception that Jason skates "sooo slowww!" Have you see Jason skate live? I wonder if you are not perceiving that he skates slow because he is doing so many intricate and detailed movements/ transitions utilizing his entire body as he skates. But that doesn't mean he is actually moving "sooo slowww" as you seem to think. Sure if Jason skated like Han with more crossovers, perhaps Jason's speed would be more apparent. Jason skates very low in his knees and he expresses every nuance of his music. To me Jason's skating is very engaging and mesmerizing. He always seems to be telling a story when he skates.

As I said, I truly think the current U.S. men all have their own uniqueness, and that's wonderful to see. Jeremy is simply in a class by himself, IMO. Of course, having formerly trained with Jeremy, Josh may have emulated something from Jeremy. Again, tho' I don't see their styles as being that similar. I do think Jeremy (as well as Josh) came into his own with greater confidence after leaving Tom Z.

BTW, I read in his Wikipedia bio that Jason plays piano (so does Armin). That is probably one reason why Jason is so good at musical interpretation in his skating.

ETA:
After looking at the top Jr. World Men's skates again, I have to say that while Joshua is an elegant, lyrical skater with strong technique and athleticism, IMO, he could improve by finding a way to exude or express more of his personality into his skating. For young skaters, that can take more time for them to develop. Jason, as silverlake (I believe) mentioned, is more of a precocious performer, and as he matures, I imagine that Jason will continue to further develop that expressive performance aspect of his skating, b/c with maturity all young athletes learn more about who they are.

 

[mskater93]

Well said, Art!

Maybe the "Jason skates soooo slow" comment is more about the movement of his body rather than the speed at which he skates (which is actually wonderful). He takes the time to finish each movement whether it be upper or lower body which may make it appear he's slow.

 

[burntBREAD]

I agree with the point about Han Yan getting better choreography -- he has good, fluid expression in my opinion with his body (not his face, I had trouble connecting with his Cotton Club face last year bc he had kind of a blank expression in a jive-y, jazzy upbeat piece), but the choreography is average and the music cuts are AWFUL (his SP this year, those cuts make me cringe). But I also agree that the style of the SP worked a lot for him, he has good flow and speed and the Shostakovich waltz really brought it out.

 

[Bluebonnet]

I have to laugh tho' at your perception that Jason skates "sooo slowww!" Have you see Jason skate live? I wonder if you are not perceiving that he skates slow because he is doing so many intricate and detailed movements/ transitions utilizing his entire body as he skates. But that doesn't mean he is actually moving "sooo slowww" as you seem to think.

Maybe the "Jason skates soooo slow" comment is more about the movement of his body rather than the speed at which he skates (which is actually wonderful). He takes the time to finish each movement whether it be upper or lower body which may make it appear he's slow.

No, I meant what I've said. Jason was so slow on ice. Take a look at Jason's SP from 1'41" to 2'29". Yes, I agree that Jason was focusing on doing those intricate detailed movements and he did those movements so well. If he had increased his speed on ice, he might not have been able to finish those movements with the same qualities. That was the problem. And that was the reason why the judges generally love the skaters who have high speed and still could do superior quality interpretations and choreographs with great on ice speed.

 

[mskater93]

If he's as slow as you claim he is, his SS mark would be much lower.

 

[Bluebonnet]

If he's as slow as you claim he is, his SS mark would be much lower.

Junior competitions are different from seniors. If he gets the same SS in senior competitions with all the top skaters in them, that means something. Well, on the second thought, I've just checked the results. His SS was only 6.75 in SP. I admit that I wasn't seeing him as a junior when I said it. It was good enough for Juniors, like 2A was good enough for getting on the podiums in Junior competitions.

 

[mskater93]

You can go look at his protocols from Senior men at US Nationals. His PCS scores were quite good there and he did a 2A in place of the 3A there as well.

 

[Bluebonnet]

I've gone to see 2012 US Senior Nationals results:

1. Abbott SS= 8.71
2. Rippon SS=7.75
3. Mahbanoozadeh SS=7.29
4. Miner SS=7.39
5. Messing SS=7.18
6. Aaron SS=7.11
7. Brown SS=7.11
8. Razzano SS=7.04
9. Carriere SS=7.11
.
.
12. Mroz SS=7.04

It didn't prove anything otherwise. His SS was not competitive in seniors. In senior international competitions, his SS will be under 7.

 

[Art&Sport]

Jason Brown's SS are far above average in both junior and senior ranks. Your criticism that he skates "sooo slowww" is very nitpicky and actually warrantless. He is skating with sufficient speed and wonderful ice coverage while interpreting the music extremely well, unlike Han Yan who needs better choreography and development of his musical interpretation and artistic presentation. If Jason was skating that slow, it would hamper enjoyment of watching him, plus it would affect the landing on his jumps (he has superb rideout on jump landings, which means he is not skating too slow). It is only your perception or your imagination. I would ask and listen to what an unbiased judge thinks, plus I trust my own eyes too.

ETA:
The fact that Jason made mistakes in the latter half of his fp is what caused him to place 9th at U.S. Nats -- he may have placed a couple of places higher had he not made those mistakes, plus it is notable that his score in the sp was over 75 pts (which means that if he'd landed a clean 3-axel in the sp, he would have scored an additional five points and probably landed in 3rd place ahead of Armin and others). Jason is definitely competitive, and it will be interesting to see what happens next season should he wield a 3-axel when he competes in international seniors. He is still young, and he has a way to go probably before international judges will give him a lot of credit right from the start. But let me put it this way, if Jason Brown was Canadian, he would probably be hyped on a level that rivals the hype the Canadian fed and press gave to the young up-and-coming Chan.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Of course Jason's SS is far above average. But we are comparing the best Junior Men in the world here and perhaps to Seniors of similar age. Jason says he has two more years of Junior so he's probably not in a hurry but wants to take his time to be an all round skater by the time he goes on to the Senior rank.

As it is, I see Han and Josh as being more all-round than Jason who has the most interesting choreography but he does trade off speed and big jumps to execute it. That is fine unless he wants to compete as a Senior internationally.

eta. As for comparing the hyping of Brown and Chan, since somehow their progress are always compared, does anyone see Brown as the National champion now and a Senior Worlds medalist next year? These were Chan's achievements at the same age, not hype.

There is a difference between accolades and hypes.

 

[Bluebonnet]

But let me put it this way, if Jason Brown was Canadian, he would probably be hyped on a level that rivals the hype the Canadian fed and press gave to the young up-and-coming Chan.

At this age, Patrick has had solid 3A and was in senior level two seasons and competed in senior GPs two years, has gotten TEB gold and SA bronze, and also made into GPF. Then he won senior National championship in the same year.

As it is, I see Han and Josh as being more all-round than Jason who has the most interesting choreography but he does trade off speed and big jumps to execute it. That is fine unless he wants to compete as a Senior internationally.

That's what I meant. Thanks for saying it in an articulate way!

 

[dorispulaski]

Actually, Patrick's 3A was an iffy proposition till last year...when he was older than 17. But no one is claiming Jason Brown is the next Patrick Chan, or even that he is ready for seniors right now. They are only using Patrick as an example of a skater who found the 3A elusive for a while, and then conquered it; it shows that this is possible, and hoping that Jason will be one of those for whom it is possible.

And again, I would like to reiterate, it is possible to find a skater enjoyable to watch without having to claim that they will ever win anything significant at the senior level.

In fact, Tracey Wilson was gushing about Jason on the CBC broadcast of Jr Worlds, exclaiming at how interesting his skating was, how quirky and innovative his choreography was, and what a mature performer he was, and how he used every beat of the music, and how memorable he was. She had noticed him at US Nationals last year, and how much she looked forward to seeing him skate.

All true, but it won't win Jason US Nationals without a 3A and a 4T these days.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Nothing wrong with loving and gushing about any skater of one's choice. However, debates often arise from mixing competitiveness with personal preferences or a skater having much appreciated but incomplete aspects of skating.

I find both Han and Joshua, both of whom have expressed admiration for Chan's skills, more reminiscent of Chan's skating, yet Jason is the one constantly compared to Chan on progression of their abilities, particularly on acquiring of 3A. I have shown with facts and data that Chan was winning Senior medals including Worlds Silver with his excellent 3A at Jason's current age. He only had a few problems last season when he added quads to his programs and has had consistently successful 3A again this season. I simply don't see where the insistent comparison comes from.

 

[Mrs. P]

Nothing wrong with loving and gushing about any skater of one's choice. However, debates often arise from mixing competitiveness with personal preferences or a skater having much appreciated but incomplete aspects of skating.

I find both Han and Joshua, both of whom have expressed admiration for Chan's skills, more reminiscent of Chan's skating, yet Jason is the one constantly compared to Chan on progression of their abilities, particularly on acquiring of 3A. I have shown with facts and data that Chan was winning Senior medals including Worlds Silver with his excellent 3A at Jason's current age. He only had a few problems last season when he added quads to his programs and has had consistently successful 3A again this season. I simply don't see where the insistent comparison comes from.

Let's get away from the 3A point for a moment.

Do you not think that the things that Tracey Wilson and others have noticed:

... how interesting his skating was, how quirky and innovative his choreography was, and what a mature performer he was, and how he used every beat of the music, and how memorable he was.

Doesn't resonate with judges or are reflective in scoring? I think it's because of those things that Jason has been able to be competitive in juniors and seniors (at the national level) despite not having a 3A. He just missed being in the final group of Senior Nationals FS, that's nothing to snuff at, beating many guys with a 3A.

As I said in past points, that may all change next season as he moves up to GP events and Worlds. But I think while he doesn't have the whole package yet, there are many reasons people are optimistic.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Tracy did voice similar opinions as many fans and nobody is snuffing at Jason who has accomplished a lot. However, it's fair game to compare him to his close rivals as future Senior contenders. His current abilities and potential are not to be denied. However, there have been many premature pronouncements of his greatness not yet achieved. No, without a 3A, he cannot be called an all round complete package, now that younger Juniors such as Yan, and even little Nam Nguyen has landed 3A in international competitions. The bar is very high these days.

 

[dorispulaski]

SkateFiguring-people that admire Jason Brown are in many cases, those that admired Rohene Ward and Shawn Sawyer-they are not talking about who is going to win competitions. They are talking about who they enjoy watching and why.

They would like to hope Jason will get a consistent 3A. It may not happen. So they look for skaters who had at some times problems with a 3A, and they find:
Patrick Chan, who had no such thing as a good 3A=he had a 3A he could land well sometimes, but often fell on in competition, for whatever reason. And now he has a relatively consistent one.

Patrick is picked to compare to because HE WAS SUCCESSFUL AT OVERCOMING HIS PROBLEMS. And that is what those that admire Jason, hope for him. Do you think they want to cite Shawn Sawyer, a very interesting skater, who never did manage to have a consistent, well performed 3A, thus predicting failure at the outset?

No one is attacking Patrick Chan.

No one is saying Jason Brown will ever even be in an event where he will be competing with Patrick Chan.

No one is even saying Jason Brown will ever win or place top 3 at US Nationals.

They are just hoping he will succeed in going on a bit farther because they like his skating.

Why do they not talk about Han Yan or Jonathan Farris, who have 3A's, and probably a more assured future in skating?

Because they are not at this time mature performers, who use every beat of the music, and have interesting, quirky choreography, and who are memorable. And because, therefore, they are not at all interested in Han Yan or Farris.

Farris & Han Yan have at this moment not yet become memorable. And in fact, memorable skaters are a lot rarer than skaters with triple axels and quads. Can Farris & Han Yan become memorable? In fact, that is as a difficult a proposition is Brown getting his triple axel. Skaters that are memorable are pretty few and far between, and most of them were memorable from the first time you saw them.

Brian Boitano is a skater who became memorable later in his career, so the trick can be done. Of the two, I think Han Yan may, with the right choreography, become a memorable skater. I have less hopes for Farris.

But you see how this is? When you look at a skater that you like with a bar to leap, you look to see whether that bar has bothered some previous skater that has then overcome it successfully. With "memorable" this is tricky, because it is possible to win an Olympic Gold Medal without ever being a particularly memorable skater, or ever wanting to be a memorable skater. Witness Evan Lysacek.

That is not saying that Han Yan will win the Olympics like Brian Boitano, only that he may yet become a memorable skater.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Doris, it's not about Chan being attacked or not but about facts. I compiled the data before to show you that Chan had about 90% 3A success rate when he 17 to 18 years old. How could he have won all those international medals including Worlds silver without a good and consistent 3A?

I don't know why a better and factually correct way to compare Brown to Chan that would serve the purpose you stated is not used at all. It will be entirely accurate to say that at 19 Chan was mocked for not having a quad but a year later he had one of the best in the business and won the Worlds title while smashing records by doing 3 quads successfully. I will never protest that hopeful comparison.

 

[Mrs. P]

Doris, it's not about Chan being attacked or not but about facts. I compiled the data before to show you that Chan had about 90% 3A success rate when he 17 to 18 years old. How could he have won all those international medals including Worlds silver without a good and consistent 3A?

I don't know why a better and factually correct way to compare Brown to Chan that would serve the purpose you stated is not used at all. It will be entirely accurate to say that at 19 Chan was mocked for not having a quad but a year later he had one of the best in the business and won the Worlds title while smashing records by doing 3 quads successfully. I will never protest that hopeful comparison.

I guess it's probably more accurate that people are looking to Chan because he did workout his challenges/goals — whether it was getting a quad later in his skating career (20 y.o.) or dealing with his problems last season with his 3A while he was working on his quad.

Perhaps the facts were wrong, as you pointed out, but I don't think it changes the intent or the point.

I think there's a fair amount of people "talking over each other" as Doris says. I think the comparison to Chan has been misconstrued as "Jason Brown is the next Patrick Chan" or "Jason Brown will be a world/national champion like Patrick Chan" or even "Jason will someday beat Patrick Chan." I think people are just saying, "There are examples of people working out their goals/struggles/challenges for the long-term." or "Jason should look at Patrick Chan as someone who didn't have a money jump (the quad for me mainly) and now has it in spades."