The state of U.S. Figure Skating

[R.D.]

...and an explanation posted on ice network for why [Flatt's] PCS for this year's nationals was about 10 below what she would typically score in previous years for the same performance.

Actually, I think they finally got it right this year. In previous years, they were overscoring her in that category relative to the international judges.

But they should be consistent and not pick and choose their battles like this...dock "penalty points" or whatever you will. As annoyed as I get at conspiracy theories on Nationals judging, there ARE things that they do sometimes that confuse the heck out of me...

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Oh, holy mother of Abraham Lincoln this thread turned rancid quickly.

1. US Figure skating is in solid, if uninspired shape. The depth of ice dance is unparalleled. The excitement of pairs is palpable. And there's a crazy deep field of junior men that easily matches the depth we see from the Russian Baby Brigade. For all the talk of the senior ladies, Wagner and Gold are both gutsy competitors with sharp skills and even sharper goals. Yes, men's is a bit of a disappointment too, but it's certainly not a disgrace.

2. Czisny got her trip to Worlds at Nationals. It's not her fault she was held up, as some assert. If she was held up, that's the judges fault. THEY took the spot the rightfully belonged to Zhang/Zawadski/Lam/Flatt/Nagasu/random skater that didn't make it out of sectionals/regionals/her mother's womb. Czisny didn't take the spot. Now, if she was injured, precedence dictates that she disclose the injury and allow someone else the chance to compete. But, imo, once they gave her that spot, it's hers.

3. That she bombed is disappointing. I assure you, however, that the paroxysms of rage occuring behind anonymous members of internet message boards are nothing compared to what she is probably going through - questioning her commitment to the sport, recalibrating her goals, etc ad infinitum. I have no problems with people questioning her decisions, but the sheer breadth of entitlement... seriously?

4. I'm not a strict nationals-only guy by any means

 

[skfan]

Oh, but you're wrong. Making the world team is a privilege doled out whimsically by the USFSA.

absolutely. been the case for years.

people say the international judges would judge like this, so we should judge similar, but to me, judging at nationals should just be *fair.* maybe they ought to set a sterling example for the rest of the figure skating world, so the audience at worlds doesn't have to boo to get the point across that the fans are not as stupid as the powers that be believe them to be?

 

[FlattFan]

But prior to challenge cup, Czisny could have easily done top 10 as well and we'd have our three spots, and we wouldn't have this thread. Remember me saying that Zhang should have been made first alternate after 4CC? If that happened, and Czisny went to Challenge Cup, bombed, and USFS did what they were supposed to do as a federation (check her readiness and pull her out if she wasn't ready), then 1st alternate would have gone. However, USFS made Zhang the 2nd alternate after Zawadzki, who was 1st, based on Nationals results. So Zawadzki would have been the one to replace Czisny...and with all due respect to Zawadzki...not sure I see a significantly better result with her- certainly not top 10 (then again, you never know).

No, I said many times. Zawadski shouldn't replace Czisny. Zhang should. The alternate list is arbitrary. Otherwise, Rachael would have been on the list instead of Mirai BASED ON NATIONALS RESULTS. So they can easily put Zhang first. 1st alternate could be anybody, not necessarily Zawadzki

 

[skfan]

Oh, holy mother of Abraham Lincoln this thread turned rancid quickly.

1. US Figure skating is in solid, if uninspired shape. The depth of ice dance is unparalleled. The excitement of pairs is palpable. And there's a crazy deep field of junior men that easily matches the depth we see from the Russian Baby Brigade. For all the talk of the senior ladies, Wagner and Gold are both gutsy competitors with sharp skills and even sharper goals. Yes, men's is a bit of a disappointment too, but it's certainly not a disgrace.

2. Czisny got her trip to Worlds at Nationals. It's not her fault she was held up, as some assert. If she was held up, that's the judges fault. THEY took the spot the rightfully belonged to Zhang/Zawadski/Lam/Flatt/Nagasu/random skater that didn't make it out of sectionals/regionals/her mother's womb. Czisny didn't take the spot. Now, if she was injured, precedence dictates that she disclose the injury and allow someone else the chance to compete. But, imo, once they gave her that spot, it's hers.

3. That she bombed is disappointing. I assure you, however, that the paroxysms of rage occuring behind anonymous members of internet message boards are nothing compared to what she is probably going through - questioning her commitment to the sport, recalibrating her goals, etc ad infinitum. I have no problems with people questioning her decisions, but the sheer breadth of entitlement... seriously?

4. I'm not a strict nationals-only guy by any means

oh please. no one is entitled to anything, not fans looking for answers, not the usfsa, nobody... except czisny, who's entitled to her world spot, who's entitled to complete privacy, who shouldn't be questioned, who shouldn't have to face questions, or inquiry, because can't you see the poor baby's upset enough already? didn't keep that reporter from shoving a mic in rachael flatt's face last year right after she skated in pain. didn't keep anybody from ripping rachael flatt apart. but nobody can question the precious darling's right to retain the spot when she probably was unfit to skate. yeah, typical reaction from cizny fans.

 

[Mathman]

^ I have a different take on this. I think we should be saying that Rachael was unfairly picked on last year. Not that Alissa should be picked on this year to keep it all even.

 

[Tonichelle]

For me personally, I didn't blame Rachael then and I don't blame Alissa now. You do your best. Sometimes your best is pretty awful. It's not like Alissa deliberately fell just to tick people off.

no, but she did admit to losing her feet... that's pretty serious. I mean, who goes off and leaves their feet at home?

 

[brightphoton]

Something like that doesn't happen very often. I suspect something evil is afoot.

 

[skfan]

^ I have a different take on this. I think we should be saying that Rachael was unfairly picked on last year. Not that Alissa should be picked on this year to keep it all even.

i really don't think it is 'picking on' czisny to ask, what happened. to face the press, and to face the so called sponsoring organizations. NFL players do it, soccer players do it, swimmers do it. i mean, isn't the nature of her 'job' rather public? that's what happens in every sporting event, regardless of whether you've just scored a touchdown or have just muffed a hold a la tony romo.


again, i feel skating at worlds is a privilege. even if her spot at worlds was indisputably earned, i would still think it was a privilege. it's an event sold to ticket holders and TV broadcasters. even if there weren't wicked fans posting anonymously on GS, she would still have to answer questions like, what happened, what changed between GPF and nationals and now. questions and fans speculations on a message board are not things she needs to be shielded from--or are entitled to avoid--she chose to be an athlete on a stage, she knew being in public is what got her her superbowl commercial, all that jazz.


as for the 'let's not pick on anyone' message of your post, just as i want the judging to be fair, i also want the rules to be evenly applied. since they established the ' you must declare your condition' rule last year, they ought to follow it this year. and i am not going to stalk this thread forever so all cizny fans can feel free to chime in and declare that no one has the right to ask her anything, at any point, that she was never held up, that her spins are the best ever in the history of the sports, even if she has to drop the leg to grab the blade though lesser spinners like kostner and MK didn't subject us to the butt-sticking out for several revolutions.


i just think the czisny defense at times make unreasonable, indefensible statements such as, you can't question her, you can't be mean to her, you can't ask a question that might make her cry. she is an adult, not a child. she is not the only skater ever to have faced difficult situation, physically, emotionally. i don't like the diminishment of what other skaters have lost thanks to her and the USFSA--an opportunity to compete at worlds _this year_ and also next year. no it's not life and death, but it's a culmination of some people's dreams, no? if it's no big deal, why did czisny write that article last year, to preserve _her_ opportunity to skate at worlds?


honestly, even if an inquiry did occur, i doubt any change would happen. since it appears they're going to continue pre-judging and holding up skaters, let's hope they hold up the 'right' ones next year, since fair judging appears to be an impossible dream.

 

[pangtongfan]

it's not fine if they take another's skater's hopes and dreams with them. whatever my situation, i doubt the people at my work will tolerate me screwing up in a way that affects their aspirations. wasn't it czisny's own words, 'for us skaters, skating is our jobs'--she used those words to insist that worlds be held, because other people were still going about their jobs, and she wanted to go about hers even in the aftermath of the disaster in japan, if i recall. it is a privilege to appear at worlds, and it has impact on other people's ability to appear at worlds. she cared enough to protect _her_ opportunity to skate at worlds last year.

if all of those things are just trivalities when czisny is the one that squanders them, then the usfsa needs to offer rachael flatt a FORMAL apology, a check for whatever amount they fined her, and an explanation posted on ice network for why her PCS for this year's nationals was about 10 below what she would typically score in previous years for the same performance.

Oh please at your Flatt example and how it supposably is inconsistent with Czisny.

1. Czisny is being criticized to the hilt, just as much as Flatt was. Hello read all the threads here the last few days.

2. Flatt over the years up until this year was ALWAYS overscored at Nationals, especialy in 2008, 2010, and her PCS especialy were a joke. So her "typical scores" does not mean her right scores.

3. Putting Flatt on the World team last year was a major mistake, even if she werent injured. She was already clearly a skater on the downswing of her career at that point. Giving Czisny the benefit of doubt this year seemed to make sense given her international record in the last year or two.

4. Flatt's quality of skating (which was never great besides consistency) has regressed alot from her peak in 2008-2010, which is also reflected in her diminished PCS. She isnt even consistently doing the big jumps, # of triples, and triple-triples to compensate anymore either.

 

[skfan]

Oh please at your Flatt example and how it supposably is inconsistent with Czisny.

1. Czisny is being criticized to the hilt, just as much as Flatt was. Hello read all the threads here the last few days.

2. Flatt over the years up until this year was ALWAYS overscored at Nationals, especialy in 2008, 2010, and her PCS especialy were a joke. So her "typical scores" does not mean her right scores.

3. Putting Flatt on the World team last year was a major mistake, even if she werent injured. She was already clearly a skater on the downswing of her career at that point. Giving Czisny the benefit of doubt this year seemed to make sense given her international record in the last year or two.

4. Flatt's quality of skating (which was never great besides consistency) has regressed alot from her peak in 2008-2010, which is also reflected in her diminished PCS. She isnt even consistently doing the big jumps, # of triples, and triple-triples to compensate anymore either.

the point is, if czisny is completely in the right, then so was flatt. and all the punishment they doled out ought to be taken back. i never said anything about whether i agreed with her PCS pre or post tibia-gate.

and i am against giving any skater, ever, the benefit of the doubt. judge what is on the ice. i don't care if it is the holy patrick chan himself. if you're injured, apply for a bye and prepare to skate at test-skate. otherwise, no gimmes for anybody, not even wagner, the brightest light in US ladies in half a decade.

 

[R.D.]

No, I said many times. Zawadski shouldn't replace Czisny. Zhang should.

I agree with you- I'm not fighting you on this point.

But the way USFS had it arranged, Zawadzki would have been picked first (due to 3rd at Natls) before Zhang (4th at Natls). For some reason they skipped over Flatt (6th) and named Nagasu (7th) alternate #3.

 

[Tonichelle]

Something like that doesn't happen very often. I suspect something evil is afoot.

nice pun!



and really guys, the USFSA listened to the fan and media outrage last year and did what we all demanded - that someone pay for Flatt's bombing at Worlds... now we're all griping that that was unfair and Alissa needs the same punishment. So which one is it?

 

[R.D.]

If USFS held Flatt accountable for last year, they need to hold Czisny accountable for this year. Why are so many fans and skating folks seemingly coddling & babying Czisny? Last year, the outcry was swift and vicious. If Phil Hersh wants any credibility, he needs to demand answers from USFS about Czisny's condition just like he did last year for Flatt's. But of course he's not going to do that because he is Mr. Czisny Uber/Flatt Hater, no?

 

[RemyRose]

No, I said many times. Zawadski shouldn't replace Czisny. Zhang should. The alternate list is arbitrary. Otherwise, Rachael would have been on the list instead of Mirai BASED ON NATIONALS RESULTS. So they can easily put Zhang first. 1st alternate could be anybody, not necessarily Zawadzki

Sorry to burst your bubble but that list is not arbitrary. The USFS always follows their 1st alternate, 2nd alternate replacement in that order if someone was to w/d. Agnes would have replaced Czisny. If Agnes wasn't ready to compete at Worlds on such short notice then, and only then would Caroline be asked. And the USFS can put whom ever they want on the alternate list regardless of how they finished at Nationals, an example is Dornbush. Dornbush was 1st alternate to 4CC [much to a lot of people dismay], when Jeremy w/d Dornbush replaced him because he was 1st alternate. That's how it works, nothing arbitrary about it.

 

[Tonichelle]

If USFS held Flatt accountable for last year, they need to hold Czisny accountable for this year. Why are so many fans and skating folks seemingly coddling & babying her? Flatt didn't get any of this last year- the outcry was swift and vicious. If Phil Hersh wants any credibility, he needs to demand answers from USFS about Czisny's condition just like he did last year for Flatt's. But of course he's not going to do that because he is Mr. Czisny Uber/Flatt Hater, no?

My only point is, "two wrongs don't make a right." IF the folks who are saying Alissa needs to be punished are also saying "Flatt shouldn't have been" then it's a revenge attitude. I believe that Flatt and team were in the wrong to not at least acknoledge that she had a problem, I'm not sure she should have been fined for it. The USFSA were fully aware of Alissa's preparedness and they still let her go. It's a different situation.

 

[skfan]

nice pun!



and really guys, the USFSA listened to the fan and media outrage last year and did what we all demanded - that someone pay for Flatt's bombing at Worlds... now we're all griping that that was unfair and Alissa needs the same punishment. So which one is it?

i didn't say what happened to flatt was unfair. re: the reporter in the face, ranting on FSU/GS... it was a bit harsh but by no means an inhumane crime.

i think that if it's the usfsa writing your name on the worlds ticket, they have the right to set the rules on what you have to do to accept that ticket. the only thing is it's even MORE imperative that they investigate czisny now since before tibia-gate it was nebulous what was required of skater and coach. but after tibia-gate it is crystal clear that you are required to *disclose.*

and i do like that pun

ETA most likely nothing will happen. usfsa will say, we were made aware of czisny's 'situation' and we are proud of how she persevered in difficult circumstances (to cover everybody's rear end--of course they told us, of course we are aware! you don't think we'd have a lapse a 2nd year in a row, do you! perish the thought!).

and then next year, when her PCS comes up at nationals, we'll know how they actually feel about what happened.

 

[R.D.]

The USFSA were fully aware of Alissa's preparedness and they still let her go. It's a different situation.

If you mean through Challenge Cup, then I see what you mean.

But I see one common theme in the two situations: they are filled with all kinds of fail on part of both the skater's team AND USFS...

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

For what it's worth, I didn't rip Flatt apart last season - I prefered her to Nagasu at Nationals and was pretty surprised at how poorly she skated at Worlds and the ensuing madness.

 

[Tonichelle]

If you mean through Challenge Cup, then I see what you mean.

But I see one common theme in the two situations: they are filled with all kinds of fail on part of both the skater's team AND USFS...

I don't expect any coach to be able to fix a head case... even Jamie Sale moving to a different coach couldn't fix her fear of the double axel. At the end of the day, the skater has to be ready to go out there and let it fall into place. I don't blame Paul Wylie's coaches for him being a headcase, Jason and Yuka did a great job getting her to a better place, but there's something there that they can't fix - and I don't expect anyone else to be able to either.