All Things Ice Dance: Canadian

[dorispulaski]

I don't know either; but in any case, it's the SD, and the unfamiliar to P&I pattern dance, the Yankee Polka, where I have my biggest worries for them. And Annenko in the DSC coaching group has done a great job with W&P, A&E, and P&B with the COP version of getting those key points right in the pattern dances.

 

[colleen o'neill]

doris , Yes , me too. We've yet to see sprightly and perky from them. I'm curious because they've had different choreographers for SD and FD in the past, and I'm wondering if they'll have a DSC SD.

Annenko ( God, I loved her skating , delicate and precise.. ) has done a great job with those key points , and their teams have managed to have programs that still feel like a real program, not two separate parts.

Andrew Poje had an interesting comment about key points..to the effect that having to focus on getting those key points (as opposed to skating CDs ) doesn't exactly serve the expression of the dance...sorry , I don't have the exact quote... I can see how that could be, yet their SD's have managed to do a good job of dealing with that situation.

On another topic.. I know there's a GP thread , but can anyone enlighten me as to the situation with Crone / Sorensen ?.. Should they not have gotten a GP slot as a split couple ?..I don't understand the fine details , here ..is that affected by not having competed at Canadians , or what ?

The powers giveth with one hand for split couple and taketh away with the other for WS points ? ( What is SC doing ? It's either all as clear as mud , or all too clear..)

 

[csparkles]

Actually Colleen, Skate Canada does not get to pick who goes anywhere for GP's except for Skate Canada, when, like all other hosting federations, they have a host pick. With the small number of available GP slots, it seems logical that the spots would go to teams that have already competed, such as Orford/Williams, Ralph/Hill, and Gilles Poirier, who at least have completed a competitive season together. Excited as I am to see Vanessa and her new partner, it is a little much to hope that they would get on to the GP circuit right away, especially with teams like Paul/Islam left at home. And probably, for the development of the team , it would be better for them to get thier feet under them at a smaller event such as a senior B, before loading them with expectations in their first season. You don't have to read politics into everything, this seems more like common sense to me.

 

[chuckm]

Sorensen last competed for Denmark at Worlds 2011, which was held in late April that year due to the tsunamis. There may be a restriction as to when he can compete for a new country.

But since Crone / Sorensen just teamed up a month ago, I doubt they (really, mostly he) wouldn't be ready to compete in the GP this fall. It's going to take awhile for him to rise to her level.

 

[colleen o'neill]

chuckm..Thanks, I'm just wondering how the system works, and what their status would entitle them to... I know it would be a very tough slog ( at best ) for them to be ready for the GP circuit ( and am aware of the disparity in their skill levels ). ... I'm looking forward to seeing their debut this summer.

The team I'm truly gutted for, in regard to the GP, is P/I. Their year of injury really cost them , but it's pretty obvious they're a better team than their points would imply.

csparkles... I didn't bring up " Politiks ", but small p politics aka strategy certainly applies , in the case of Skate Canada ( the competition ).With Canadian Nationals being G/P's only major competition last year, I would hardly characterize last season as a full year of competition for them..and considering the pretty scandalous over marking at Nats. , I can't help but question their winding up with 2 GP assignments , and one of the 4,5,6 place teams ( who were in close contention with each other at Nats.) is left out to dry.

I'm asking, not necessarily accusing ( yet)..If someone with a better handle on what amount of leeway SC would have had in their picks from this , that and the other categories , I'd appreciate some enlightenment.

I know they have to be looking ahead to Sochi , but with the depth of talent in the country right now , and given the vagaries of competition - any couple might have a disastrous year ( see P/I) or a breakthrough ( see W/P) .. with only two yrs. to go , I would think it would be in their interest to get as many of these couples out there as possible ( especially as G/P have not been seen internationally yet , and it's unknown how they will be received ).

E.G. could they have gone with V/M , R/H and P/I , since G/P had another assignment ?..I ask because SC has been known to out-smart themselves in the past , which unfortunately can have dire results for the skaters.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Just to give you an idea of how odd Skate Canada's actions were, a reflection on the GP spots.

a) Each host nation has three host picks.

b) Generally, uses at least one host pick on someone who won't be elgible for a pick under any category.

c) Canada did this with Liam Firus and Katelyn Osmond, for example.

d) In pairs, Canada has left one spot open (TBA) and that'll go to a team that will not be eligible under any category (namely, there were five teams guaranteed one spot. Four got two, one split up)

e) In dance, several teams were guaranteed a spot on the GP circuit: V/M, W/P (two), O/W, R/H (one), G/P (split couple means they get one, as I understand it).

f) So, of the three teams looking at one slot (I'll include G/P here, despite the fact that they have two), it's just as easy to not give them a host pick if your goal is to get as many teams as possible on the circuit (which I'd argue SC did last season with it's pairs). If, however, your goal is to get a fewer number of teams two slots (see pairs, where it was a wise decision), then it makes sense to give them a host pick, as they aren't likely to get two elsewhere.

g) Except, if you do that, you should preserve the TBA, because they are only guaranteed one slot. So if you give it to them, they have their one slot. If you leave it as a TBA, you could potentially give that skater a second slot.

h) Skate Canada managed to, quite paradoxically, harm R/H's chances of getting two slots by giving them a host pick, and took away from P/I by giving R/H the host pick (P/I being ineligble otherwise

 

[dorispulaski]

Yes, it does sound like they outsmarted themselves here, particularly with respect to R&H, who really had a very respectable Worlds debut this year, and P&I, who are very talented.

 

[colleen o'neill]

:disapp:'Pogue and doris.. Well this is exactly the kind of thing I feared. Really ... it scuttles any chance for P/I..and can you imagine that R/H will have much of a chance to do as well, at that particular event as they might have somewhere else ?

The thing is, it seems so inexplicable that it invites negative speculation which is something I'd think they'd want to avoid.. I know people who have already wondered if the main objective is either a move to freeze someone else out...(either P/I or C/S ) .. or some sort of punitive action (against P/I )... The whole scenario wasn't making much sense to me , either ...and I wasn't sure enough of the process to reassure them.

I had been thinking it was awfully kind to G/P , under the circumstances, which made me nervous enough.

 

[dorispulaski]

It's not impossible that one of the teams will snag a TBA, or get a chance to fill a slot

However, it's quite a hill to climb. There are 3 TBA spots and 8 teams which have only one GP berth, which are ahead of R&H on the season's best list. There is, of course, the chance of getting a slot when teams withdraw in time for their slot to be filled.

Teams on the Season best list who are not competing in juniors and who have only one slot:

Sinitsina & Zhiganshin, 9th on the season's best list; 1st at Jr Worlds
Tobias/Stagniunas have one only, 18th on the season's best list, 18th at Worlds, received their season's best score at Europeans
Chock/Bates have only one, 20th on the season's best list, received their high score at Skate Canada
Orford/Williams have only one, 21st on the season's best list, received their high score at Junior Worlds
Alessandrini/Vaturi have only one, 22nd, (16th at Worlds, their high score was from NHK)
Zlobina/Sitnikov have only one, 23rd, (17th at Worlds, their season's best score was from Europeans)
Nakorova/Nikitin (UKR) have only one, 24th (Weren't at World; they got their season's best score at the "Youth Olympics". I've never seen them skate.)
Ralph/Hill have only one, 25th, 13th at Worlds

Then their are 6 teams below R&H on the season's best list which have one event:


Guignard & Fabbri, 29th on the season best list
Pushkash & Guerreiro, 32nd on the season's best list
Kriengkrairut & Giuiletti-Schmitt, 34th on the season's best list
Reed & Reed, 39th on the season's best list
Yu & Wang, 50th on the season's best list
Monko & Khaliavin (out for this season due to illnesss, but last season's World Junior Champions)

Paul & Islam are 47th; I don't see how they get a spot without a lot of politicking, and if Skate Canada were going to to do that level of politicking, they would have given them a Skate Canada slot.

The 3 TBA spots are USA, CHN, and FRA

The US will almost surely fill its spot after Lake Placid IDC with a US team, probably Chock & Bates, but if some team totally knocks it out of the park and beats them at Lake Placid, it would be that team.

Really, they need to go back to 10 teams at GP events. There are too many good teams and not enough slots.

I am most annoyed at putting Ralph & Hill at Skate Canada, since they were entitled to a slot anyway.

 

[chuckm]

It is unusual for a "split" team (Gilles/Poirier) to receive two initial GP events, both invitations. In 2010/2011, Dube/Wolfe also got two initial events, but one was a host pick.

In 2010/2011, Hubbell/Donohue got just one event, a host pick. Chock/Bates got two events as substitutes, and Samuelson/Gilles got one as a substitute. The first season the split couple rule went into effect, 2009/2010, Duhamel/Radford got just one event, a host pick.

It's odd that only Skate Canada has been able to wangle initial invitations for a split couple. But I think Skate Canada used up all their politicking mojo to get those invitations for G/P, and the singles skaters (and R/H) took a hit.

 

[colleen o'neill]

I really detest these shortened rosters . They're certainly not in the skaters' interest.

I can't see how R/H can feel SC is doing it's best for them , and P/I must feel like they've been shown the exit.

ETA : chuckm.. That's not very heartening..:disapp:.. But the more you look at it , the more it looks like a duck.

 

[Dragonlady]

The powers giveth with one hand for split couple and taketh away with the other for WS points ? ( What is SC doing ? It's either all as clear as mud , or all too clear..)

The teaming of Crone and her new partner is relatively recent. Skate Canada has to provide a list of skaters for GP events around May 1st so really new teams have no hope of making the list, especially since they haven't had time to prepare programs or be monitored.

I know this doesn't quite fit into your conspiracy theories but this is what happens in these circumstances.

 

[chuckm]

I doubt that Crone/Sorensen would have been viewed with the same rose-colored glasses that Gilles/Poirier were from the getgo, even if both couples were together for the same length of time.

Given Sorensen's results with other partners and citizenship issues, there is no way that C/S could be in competitive condition to vie for a spot on the 2014 Canadian Olympic team. Clearly, Skate Canada is pushing G/P for that third spot and that's why they put all their efforts behind getting them two GP invitations this coming season.

 

[colleen o'neill]

I doubt that Crone/Sorensen would have been viewed with the same rose-colored glasses that Gilles/Poirier were from the getgo, even if both couples were together for the same length of time.

I completely agree with this.

However...Dragonlady.. my original query stemmed from the general understanding that as a split couple, or returning skater , C/S would be entitled to a spot ( and the understanding that the delay last year for G/P was due to having to wait for Piper's release...different situation) chuckm reminded me of the possibility of Sorensen needing a release and if so, I can understand that. Aside from the question of whether they could be ready, or if they'd be better served to wait, or any other consideration.. I was just asking for clarification on whether or not they were entitled to a slot .

Look, you can call me a conspiracy theorist if you like, in an attempt to place my opinion way out in left field..it doesn't offend me particularly ... and I could call you an apologist in return , but I can't see the profit in going down that road , so I decline the challenge.

Maybe I'm hard to please , but I don't think the ISU's rules or proposals always work out for the best ( see the failed 3 GP slot experiment , and the lamented 8, instead of 10 couple GP rosters , just for starters )..But their annual changes and tweakings are proof that even they recognize this.

And I know I'm not alone in the opinion that SC's attempts at clever strategy often backfire. I don't see how these assignments benefit R/H..and they completely marginalize P/I. All to promote G/P..( and with the insights that have been given by others on this thread , that seems unquestionable. ) As chuckm just pointed out , this is a highly unusual situation.

It's ingenuous to assume that SC has absolutely nothing to do with the choices other feds make. Surely they speak to each other ? Of course SC can't dictate what choice France ( e.g.) requests , but one fed can tell another what their preferences would be , or if multiple other feds are requesting the same couple , try to offer them an alternative....(One might wonder why France wouldn't have requested R/H who just had a good reception in Nice.)

One might expect a federation to go out of their way to promote a 3 rd place couple who stands far and away above the other couples just below them , or very close to the top 2 teams , but the only thing that makes G/P fit that description are their highly questionable marks at Nationals. The ability they displayed ? Not so much.. So it's really fair game to question the motives behind this , if looking ahead to this season and the GP played a part in those marks, and the wisdom of the move.

Just to clarify , I'm not accusing our judges of being corrupt , but of possibly being influenced by oft-repeated and overblown expectations.

 

[skatingfan04]

I really detest these shortened rosters . They're certainly not in the skaters' interest.

I can't see how R/H can feel SC is doing it's best for them , and P/I must feel like they've been shown the exit.

ETA : chuckm.. That's not very heartening..:disapp:.. But the more you look at it , the more it looks like a duck.

They have been shown the exit. With the first two spots on the Olympic team essentially spoken for (as they should be, since both V/M and W/P are sublime), the contenders for the third spot are G/P, P/I, R/H and O/W (though at this point I think O/W might be a bit of a long shot, but that could change...C/S could also potentially be added to that list depending on how they do this season, but I suspect citizenship will be an issue). One would think that the logical thing for Skate Canada to do would be to try and ensure that each team has one grand prix assignment. Since the other entries are out of SC's control, and R/H, G/P and O/W all qualified for a spot, the logical thing would have been to give the host Skate Canada spot to P/I. Normally I would argue that G/P, as bronze medallists would have at least some right to a second spot, but they have NO experience. None. They've skated one major competition in their carrers, and it was domestic (not to mention the fact that the judging was a joke, but I'm gonna let that go for now). Would it not have made more sense to give G/P a couple of Sr. B events to give them the chance to build up some confidence in a less pressure filled environment as opposed to the second grand prix? Instead, they've essentially shut out a team that has enormous potential ( and, I honestly believe, the best chance of all of them to make the team if the judging is fair) by leaving P/I at home. They had no issue sending P/I to competitions and supporting them when they were getting good international results, but one season of injury and they get thrown under the bus. It's really unfair. I also think it's a silly risk on SC's part. They've made it perfectly clear who they want to make the team for Sochi, but I don't think it's wise to "put all of their eggs in the basket" of a team who has yet to be assessed by an international pannel. Especially since that puts P/I at a disadvantage, a team that we know scores well with international judges when they are healthy. G/P could get decimated by the international judges ( and that may very well happen, given their numerous technical issues), which would mean that this whole strategy would have backfired. I guess we'll see.

I don't get why SC is pushing so hard for G/P. I really don't. I've always found judging and competition assignments to be pretty fair in Canada in terms of ice dance (at least in the past 7 or 8 years), so I'm really dissapointed to see such blatant favouratism. I just hope it doesn't cost P/I or R/H their careers.

 

[Dragonlady]

Why are you all crying the blues for P&I? They HAVE two assignments but I would think this will be their last shot at it unless there is some improvement in their results. And with Harvey & Gagnon announcing their retirement, there is another spot opened up, although it's not guaranteed that this would go to a Canadian team.

Why would they have put themselves up for a GP invite if they weren't continuing?

 

[wasabi]

Why are you all crying the blues for P&I? They HAVE two assignments......

What assignments do they have?

 

[colleen o'neill]

I believe she's looking at last year's list.

 

[chuckm]

Why are you all crying the blues for P&I? They HAVE two assignments but I would think this will be their last shot at it unless there is some improvement in their results. And with Harvey & Gagnon announcing their retirement, there is another spot opened up, although it's not guaranteed that this would go to a Canadian team.

Why would they have put themselves up for a GP invite if they weren't continuing?

I didn't see ANY slot for Paul/Islam on the Dance roster.

It isn't surprising that they didn't get an invitation, because their WR is 35 and their SB 45. But I would have thought they would have gotten a host pick.

BTW, don't Gilles/Poirier have to establish a minimum score at an ISU competition? I'm shocked that they got two invitations when they have never competed together internationally. It's more the norm for a split couple to get a GP event via the substitute list or host pick, as Hubbell/Donohue, Chock/Bates and Samuelson/Gilles did last year.

 

[wasabi]

I believe she's looking at last year's list.

Yes, she must be. I thought I was misreading the lists as I definitely thought they were shut out.