The landing edge and flow out of a jump

[Mathman]

Why don’t we see jump landings like this any more? Is a beautiful, controlled, extended landing edge somehow CoP-unfriendly, since there is a second or two, while the skater is completing the jump, during which she is not earning any extra points?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1imuQWeIi4Q#t=1m53s

 

[Bartek]

This is actually very CoP-friendly jump. It could get +1 or +2 for GoE. Things you mentioned (good flowing edge on the landing as well as good extention of the free leg) are both features for higher GoE. I would say she also fullfils "efortless throughout" bullet. And that spiral she held after the landing is considered as difficult/creative/unexpected exit, that should increase her marks for Transitions.

 

[emma]

Part of me is tempted to say that very, very few people are able to NOT rush things like Michelle who combined not rushing with amazing blade to ice control. I feel like we've seen glimpses of cool holding edges out of jumps that perhaps could have been held longer but were rushed; is it rushed because COP demands so many elements or is it rushed because nerves set it? I'm not sure ....and am too tired to think of good examples to share for study. If they come to me, I'll share them.

 

[FSGMT]

As you pointed out, many skaters are just not comfortable with that kind of long edge at the end of a jumps, especially the Men. If you watch Kostner's 3F in least year's Worlds FS or her 2A in the 2011 Worlds FS you can see very good and long landing edges, the same for Suzuki's opening 3Lz last season at NHK FS (where she received a +1.40 GOE)...

 

[lowtherlore]

I don’t think that kind of elongated landing is particularly difficult technically for any elite skater with good exit edge on jumps. If that kind of landing is intended to match the music and the choreographic passage (like in the MK example that MM gave), only then it deserves extra-extra point, either in TES for taking the extra risk or in PCS for whatever categories a judge finds applicable, I think.

 

[FSGMT]

I don’t think that kind of elongated landing is particularly difficult technically for any elite skater with good exit edge on jumps.

This is the problem: the major part of the competing elite-senior Ladies do not have good exit edges! See leonova or, in general, all the russians: their jumping quality is superbe, but their landing edges are short and rushed, especially Lipnitskaya's and leonova's, the same for many of the americans, except nagasu (when she's in good shape) or (sometimes in flip and loop) wagner...

 

[lowtherlore]

This is the problem: the major part of the competing elite-senior Ladies do not have good exit edges! See leonova or, in general, all the russians: their jumping quality is superbe, but their landing edges are short and rushed, especially Lipnitskaya's and leonova's, the same for many of the americans, except nagasu (when she's in good shape) or (sometimes in flip and loop) wagner...

That’s true. Adelina too has good height on her jumps, but her flow out of the jumps is not that good. Joannie and Carolina have good speed out of the jumps. But some elite skaters often abbreviate the flows out of the jumps either for choreographic needs (accompanying its own risks) or to pack scored elements into the time limit.

 

[blue dog]

That’s true. Adelina too has good height on her jumps, but her flow out of the jumps is not that good. Joannie and Carolina have good speed out of the jumps. But some elite skaters often abbreviate the flows out of the jumps either for choreographic needs (accompanying its own risks) or to pack scored elements into the time limit.

I think this comes from the fact that Joannie and Carolina may have had minimal training in figures and edging, whereas Adelina may have not. Although Adelina's coach was amazing at figures (during the later part of her own skating career), I do not think she taught Adelina figures, which requires edge control. Even lower-level figures teaches you where you place your shoulders and where to place your weight on the blade to maintain good, solid edging.

Moves in the field, as much as they teach one about edging, are not sufficient.

 

[Mathman]

To me, an extended landing edge on a difficult jump says, I nailed it, I crushed it, I OWN this jump! In the great majority of cases it seems like the free foot comes down immedately to correct the exit.

As for choreography, IMHO a secure landing edge is the best way to incorporate the jump into the flow of the program, rather than as isolated element.

 

[blue dog]

To me, an extended landing edge on a difficult jump says, I nailed it, I crushed it, I OWN this jump! In the great majority of cases it seems like the free foot comes down immedately to correct the exit.

As for choreography, IMHO a secure landing edge is the best way to incorporate the jump into the flow of the program, rather than as isolated element.

Agreed, MM. Also, extended landing edges also say: "I rotated that jump fully!" Cheated jumps do not have the same flow and rideout as a fully-rotated jump.

 

[FSGMT]

Agreed, MM. Also, extended landing edges also say: "I rotated that jump fully!" Cheated jumps do not have the same flow and rideout as a fully-rotated jump.

And they should not receive +1 or +2 GOEs! I feel that giving +2 to Lipnitskaya's or Leonova's or Gold's jumps is really unfair compared with the GOEs received by the skater with good edges control...

 

[l'etoile]

To me, an extended landing edge on a difficult jump says, I nailed it, I crushed it, I OWN this jump! In the great majority of cases it seems like the free foot comes down immedately to correct the exit.

As for choreography, IMHO a secure landing edge is the best way to incorporate the jump into the flow of the program, rather than as isolated element.

Yuna's solo lutz and salchow jumps in Gershwin FS had had gorgeous running edge as its choreography all the season long. It was really incredible, especially because they were at the 2nd part of the program. Frankly, I would say this program is the pinnacle of CoP era since all the jumps in this program has intricate transitions in and out that let it flow beautifully.

ETA: That clip of Michelle's gorgeous double axel reminded me of what Yuna's done in her FS at 2009 worlds, which was her tribute performance to Michelle, and in her gala at Vancouver Olympics.

 

[Mathman]

^ Magnificent!

 

[FlattFan]

Here's Kanako's amazing 3F
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Isfpab-Q1kk#t=90s

 

[kwanatic]

Here's Kanako's amazing 3F
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Isfpab-Q1kk#t=90s

^^I loved that!

I think a 2-count hold on a landing should be an automatic +1 for GOE. I think more than anything a secure and maintained edge out of a landing shows the judges that the skater is in complete control of the jump. I love a well-checked landing with a lovely extended free leg...it's just pretty!

I think Michelle had some of the best examples of great ride-out and flow. I loved how she always checked her landings so fully, in addition to being able to maintain that edge coming out of a jump...any jump:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=2UlJuZjzpUM#t=48s: 2A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=los5Gf4ocxI#t=226s: Another 2A that was slightly off balance, yet she managed to control the edge and still hold the landing!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=fJwtHxPifjo#t=174s: 3L, not the longest ride-out but still fully extended.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=VfluAux0Sf0#t=181s: 3Lz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=1imuQWeIi4Q#t=150s: 3T
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=YDTYqmcDFpM#t=114s: 3F
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=YbgoLNAtNP4#t=113s: 3S
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=NhXa9JYtwLY#t=72s: 3T-3T (the confidence on that landing!)

 

[l'etoile]

^ Michelle is not Michelle Kwan without those extraordinary qualities of hers! Just

 

[Fozzie Bear]

http://michellekwan.fateback.com/images/04-05/05natsprac-112-landing.jpg

Best landing position in the business. :yes:

 

[skateluvr]

Just Sigh...this was the year, the SP when they used a little makeup and costume to unveil the grown up Michelle. Romanza still makes me gasp at how lovely this girl was, her skating and her face. Such a delicate, Chinese beauty emerging into womanhood. Yes, the landings were lovely and extended as they had time before CoP demands. Not complicated but just lovely. I hate to gush, but wasn't that SP just perfection? She was never more beautiful. Truly like watching a flower open.

 

[l'etoile]

Just Sigh...this was the year, the SP when they used a little makeup and costume to unveil the grown up Michelle. Romanza still makes me gasp at how lovely this girl was, her skating and her face. Such a delicate, Chinese beauty emerging into womanhood. Yes, the landings were lovely and extended as they had time before CoP demands. Not complicated but just lovely. I hate to gush, but wasn't that SP just perfection? She was never more beautiful. Truly like watching a flower open.

ITA. Romanza was just speechless. I still remember Dick introducing her in Nats saying "Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrromanza!" And then music started, all was magic.

 

[kwanatic]

^^Definitely a favorite of mine. From 1996-1998 Michelle's SPs were perfection and each one showed a different level of growth. Yesterday I posted a "gush post" on my blog about the brilliance of Dream of Desdemona (I won't post the link here b/c I don't want to get fussed at) but Romanza was the biggest shocker b/c it was such a drastic change from the year before in terms of packaging. The music, choreography and costume brought out all of the qualities Michelle already had. All of that grace, musicality, etc. had been there but it was hidden behind a fresh faced ponytailed girl. *swoons*

I'm off to watch Romanza now...