State of American Ladies: 2012-13 Season

[Mrs. P]

I noticed the lag wrap - which might contribute (but might not - Ito was famous for them) - this year; and especially this comp and was wondering if it was new or old and I hadn't noticed before.

I'm not sure I understand what MM is saying - are you/is he saying that she is reaching for the landing too soon - like stretching for it by pointing her toes too much? Or is this about not getting enough height?

If you look at the jump in slow motion, you will see her toe pick hit the ice first before the rest the skate lands. Often times, the toe pick hits the ice before she fully rotates the jump.

The most ideal situation is to completely rotate the jump well before you land the jump, that's where height comes into place.

 

[R.D.]

More on Wagner (can't stop hearing about her, it seems):

http://www.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20121126&content_id=40415158&vkey=ice_news

http://www.teamusa.org/News/2012/November/26/Ashley-Wagner-Champion-On-Ice-And-In-The-Classroom.aspx

 

[mskater93]

I noticed the leg wrap - which might contribute (but might not - Ito was famous for them) - this year; and especially this comp and was wondering if it was new or old and I hadn't noticed before.

I'm not sure I understand what MM is saying - are you/is he saying that she is reaching for the landing too soon - like stretching for it by pointing her toes too much? Or is this about not getting enough height?

Ito did NOT have a wrap. Nakano had a wrap. Ito never pushed down from the "free leg take off position" because she didn't need to be ankle to ankle to fully rotate her jumps. Ito had ankle to knee/calf position which, if you watch most skaters on take off, you will see before they push down to increase rotational speed. Nakano, however, had that knee to knee wrap that slows rotation down and usually causes an UR or DG (or at least a review).

I already put forth the theory that MM has taken up - basically instead of waiting for the ice to meet her skate, it seems as if Nagasu is consciously "reaching" for the ice with her landing toe pick which is hindering her inability to fully rotate her jumps (expecially because her weight isn't fully on that landing foot when the toe pick hits the ice). I said it was uncommon if someone actually had listened and absorbed their lessons from Frank C because he teaches his students to let the ice rise up to meet the skate versus "reaching" for the ice. One of my coaches took from Frank for a couple seasons and he advocates this repeatedly when we are working on jumps. Frank advocates that jumps "float" more and that you consciously work to reach the peak of the jump and then get in the rotating position and when you land, THAT is when you check out. (Reaching for the ice also reduces max jump zenith because instead of focusing on going up, you are focusing on reaching for the ice).

 

[Layfan]

Ito did NOT have a wrap. Nakano had a wrap. Ito never pushed down from the "free leg take off position" because she didn't need to be ankle to ankle to fully rotate her jumps. Ito had ankle to knee/calf position which, if you watch most skaters on take off, you will see before they push down to increase rotational speed. Nakano, however, had that knee to knee wrap that slows rotation down and usually causes an UR or DG (or at least a review).

I already put forth the theory that MM has taken up - basically instead of waiting for the ice to meet her skate, it seems as if Nagasu is consciously "reaching" for the ice with her landing toe pick which is hindering her inability to fully rotate her jumps (expecially because her weight isn't fully on that landing foot when the toe pick hits the ice). I said it was uncommon if someone actually had listened and absorbed their lessons from Frank C because he teaches his students to let the ice rise up to meet the skate versus "reaching" for the ice. One of my coaches took from Frank for a couple seasons and he advocates this repeatedly when we are working on jumps. Frank advocates that jumps "float" more and that you consciously work to reach the peak of the jump and then get in the rotating position and when you land, THAT is when you check out. (Reaching for the ice also reduces max jump zenith because instead of focusing on going up, you are focusing on reaching for the ice).

I remember my ballet teachers telling me all kinds of things about proper technique, and while somethings were easy other things just would not happen no matter how hard I to tried to concentrate on making my body do what they said. He can't be the only teacher who tells students not to reach for the ice. If it were as easy as having a coach who told you that....

I'm sure it's also a challenge not to fall back on bad habits during competitions. Maybe during practices you've finally succeeded in getting rid of a certain habit, or at least most of the time, but at competition all you want to do is land the jump so you get nervous and do it the old way.

 

[emma]

thanks for the clarifications/explanations Mrs. P and mskater93! And thanks RD for the links!

 

[R.D.]

It seems like US ladies go in one-year cycles now. It seemed 2009 was the year of Flatt...2010 was the year of Nagasu...2011 was the year of Czisny...and now 2012 being the year of Wagner...(with none of them having the success of Kwan/Cohen even given their worst seasons) who's gonna be next??

In fact, it seems the only one of the "2008ers" (as I like to call this crop of US women, minus Czisny) that hasn't had her chance in the senior spotlight is Caroline Zhang.

Yes, I'm aware that this season is not over and jury will be out on Wagner- but it seems as if every time there is reason to hope, something happens to squash it...

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Yes, I'm aware that this season is not over and jury will be out on Wagner- but it seems as if every time there is reason to hope, something happens to squash it...

I see something COMPLETELY different in Ashley vs other recent champions. She goes out there with a take charge attitude, whereas so many of our other champions look terrified defending their titles. This girl has had "it" for years; since 2008 she has placed 1st or 2nd in the FS at Nationals every year except 2011. John refined her style a bit more and helped her skate more confidently in the short, so it was just a few things that she needed to improve upon to become the champion she now is.

 

[Mrs. P]

RD, even Ashley herself isn't getting ahead of herself, I thought this point Ashley made in the IN article said it all:

"I am fully aware that while I am doing well, it's not entirely about what I do now -- it's about maintaining it and performing under pressure when it really counts," the 21-year-old skater said.

"The Grand Prix [wins] count for something, but at the end of the day, they are not what qualify me for worlds and they are not what will get me on top of the podium at worlds either," she continued. "This season is going to be all about endurance. I need to be able to maintain this success from now through March, hopefully."

 

[noskates]

I think Ashley is very level-headed and I think John Nicks keeps her grounded. She has shown amazing self-confidence this year. My only observation is that sometimes she almost seems robotic going through her program. I thought last year's Swan Lake (Black Swan) gave her more of an opportunity to "emote." But I do hope she comes out on top at Nats this year. Gracie Gold will get her chance and I think will be a force to be reckoned with at Sochie. Not a big fan of Agnes Zawadsky but I couldn't honestly tell you why. I just don't see that spark in her.

 

[Mathman]

I agree with drivingmissdaisy. There is a different vibe about Ashley this year. The previous ladies' champions were morel ike, cross your fingers and hope for the best.

Don't count out Mirai for number two.

 

[emma]

I too agree with drivingmissdaisy....so many posters and commentators noticed this too at the last competition; she just exudes "I'm well trained, I'm here to show you that". I love it.

I won't count Mirai out for number two, and I see some real fire in her eyes - I think watching Mirai and Ashley at nationals will be very, very interesting and I don't dare predict what that podium will end up looking like.

 

[tulosai]

I agree with drivingmissdaisy. There is a different vibe about Ashley this year. The previous ladies' champions were morel ike, cross your fingers and hope for the best.

Don't count out Mirai for number two.

I think a difference with Ashley and the girls who haven't been able to defend their title (minus, I guess, Czisney, but she's a headcase soooo) is that Ashley is actually not a girl now, she is more of a woman. It's not like last year was one of her first years at Nationals. MANY of the national title holders did it very quickly. Ashley has ahd time and is more mature. She also seems grounded. Flatt I guess also took some time to win her first title but injury and limited artistic talent derailed her.

 

[R.D.]

A lot of posters sticking up for Wagner - and I will give her this: she is exuding more confidence than the previous candidates. I will also give her this: she seems to know exactly what she needs to work on and the trajectory she needs to follow (stuff I've been saying). It's almost like she is reading my mind (or my posts, but that's doubtful )...

It's just that so much can happen between now and the end of the season...it always seems someone on our world team is injured/fails to deliver.

My only observation is that sometimes she almost seems robotic going through her program. I thought last year's Swan Lake (Black Swan) gave her more of an opportunity to "emote."

I agree with Black Swan being a better fit. I said before that I feel S&D has Wagner trying a bit too hard to be something she really isn't, or to fit a style that isn't really hers.
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As for Nagasu, I had her in the wildcard/spoiler position at Nationals at season's beginning. I've since switched her out for Gao after two straight clean FSs from her (SA, TEB). Nagasu is certainly in the hunt, though. Most posters seem to have Gold in the #2 position behind Wagner, and for the most part I agree with this. But history is not going to be on the defending champion's side. Those who say that Wagner never looks scared/nervous on the ice, well, we'll find out what she's truly made of in a couple of months! January is going to be interesting indeed...

 

[tulosai]

A lot of posters sticking up for Wagner - and I will give her this: she is exuding more confidence than the previous candidates. I will also give her this: she seems to know exactly what she needs to work on and the trajectory she needs to follow (stuff I've been saying). It's almost like she is reading my mind (or my posts, but that's doubtful )...

It's just that so much can happen between now and the end of the season...it always seems someone on our world team is injured/fails to deliver.



I agree with Black Swan being a better fit. I said before that I feel S&D has Wagner trying a bit too hard to be something she really isn't, or to fit a style that isn't really hers.
______________

As for Nagasu, I had her in the wildcard/spoiler position at Nationals at season's beginning. I've since switched her out for Gao after two straight clean FSs from her (SA, TEB). Nagasu is certainly in the hunt, though. Most posters seem to have Gold in the #2 position behind Wagner, and for the most part I agree with this. But history is not going to be on the defending champion's side. Those who say that Wagner never looks scared/nervous on the ice, well, we'll find out what she's truly made of in a couple of months! January is going to be interesting indeed...

I think Gold, Nagasu, and Gao are all in the hunt for 2nd. I still give Gracie the nod at this point but would not be shocked with either Nagasu or Gao edging her out. I think Nagasu might get the nod over Gao simply due to her international experience but who can say.

I'm also not totally dismissing Agnes though to me she is more the 'wildcard' for the podium.

 

[R.D.]

I will say I'd be more comfortable with Nagasu than Gao for that reason: experience. Besides, it remains to be seen whether Gao (like Wagner) can maintain her current level of skating and not peak too soon.

As for Zawadzki, I keep forgetting about her admittedly...where she will be a factor, I predict, will be in the SP. Don't be surprised to see her leading the field once again after the SP. She has never been able to hold it together in the FS, but if recent competitions are any indication she's no longer falling apart at least. Still, I'm not sure she will be able to hold onto any lead she may pick up from the SP and it's likely she'll wind up somewhere between 2nd and 5th. I still think Gold is the favorite, but she probably needs to be on her game since the others will be gunning for it too.

 

[MKFSfan]

I agree that Ashley is exuding a lot more maturity, confidence and attack, something that we have been missing in US Ladies skating for a while. I don't know that she'll be our "it" girl for the next couple of years the that way certain athletes have been in the past, but she's the leader out of the current bunch. It also helps that the rest of Ladies Skating seems kinda shaky. Mao and Akiko SHOULD be the ones to be feared but Mao is still struggling with the jumps and Akiko gets very little respect. We'll see what happens come Worlds, but if no Yu-Na or Caroline, and Mao as she is, very weak field it seems.

I would LOVE for Mirai to rediscover her 2010 Nats/Olympics spark. If she could just be that girl, I really think she could be our "it" skater. I like what we've seen of Gold, but I'd be surprised if she can overtake Ashley and Mirai at Nats (if they skate somewhat close to potential).

 

[mskater93]

The problem with Nagasu is she folds at the first sign of adversity. She had the GOLDEN opportunity in 2011 to really kill it and be on the World team. She had been improving throughout the season and had put up the best overall SP score at Nationals. Czsiny skated before Nagasu in the LP and really killed it (minus the 3Lo) and pulled down a huge score. Instead of using the energy in the building and Czsiny's score as a motivator, Nagasu got the deer in the headlights look and completely shut down before even being announced - like she thought there was no chance of making the world team she has to take the ice like she owns it, even if she's fighting for the second spot (which she was in '11). No matter what happens, she just CAN'T do that if she wants to be a star. We'll see how she responds, especially if she skates after somebody who puts out a lights out program....

 

[R.D.]

It's a tough position to skate after someone else throws it down, though. It's like they've absorbed all the energy in the building and it's it's up to you to pick up the pieces.

I agree though, Nagasu often suffers from lack of confidence, particularly in the FS when she is in front. So does Zawadzki...and Czisny...

I never gave up on Nagasu like so many other posters here and elsewhere- that said, I wonder if she can regain what she had in 2010 or whether she is past her peak. What she has going for her is that she is still young and as long as she remains healthy and motivated, she can stay in the running for 2014 and even 2018. Although I'm seeing more fight in her than I have since Vancouver, I still don't see the level of motivation and determination in her than I'm currently seeing in Wagner.

 

[mskater93]

Actually, in my experience, it's MUCH EASIER to skate right after someone has killed it and the roof has been blown off the building. You can absorb ALL of that energy and use it for yourself -- there is a TON of energy in the building right after someone has killed it. Yes, you have to block out that score and placement (if they are being announced) but there's just something about the response for that previous skater as you take the ice that carries you. Personally, my best performances are typically right after someone else has totally killed it. The great thing about having the person before you kill it is the crowd is already "warmed up" for you and the energy level is SUPER high.

I saw the look on Nagasu's face when the place erupted after Alissa skated in 2011 and she looked defeated - even before she had been announced to take the ice and it wasn't like only one American lady was going to Worlds...

Nagasu has not been a good "placement pressure" skater. The expectations were low when she made the Olympic team (everyone expected it to be Cohen and...). The expectations for placement at the Olympics was not really there - if anyone was going to be top 5, it was more expected to be Flatt since she was the US champion (that could be debated, but still...) and no one expected either American to challenge for a medal. When she won her National title in 2008, no one expected HER to win (Flatt, Zhang, Meissner...). When she won the SP at Worlds in 2010 and the expectations to "finish" were on her, she blew the opportunity. She had been injured throughout the summer after and her GP season was a little down after that, but she won the SP at Nationals after Czsiny had won the GP final and then she blew that opportunity and finished 3rd. In 2009, she came in as defending National Champion and had issues and ended up 5th. Last year, she was in the final group after the SP within striking distance of the World team and knew Zawadski had a propensity for poor LP, Zhang was still coming back, Czsiny had been skating inconsistently in general, Wagner was someone she had beaten repeatedly over time, and Gao is perpetually 5th, but blew her opportunity BIG TIME to finish 7th behind a Rachel Flatt who skated her LP in the penultimate group. Maybe she will skate well at Nationals this year because the expectations are back to low? Who knows...I know that she seems to be psychologically fragile when there is pressure for placement.

 

[Mrs. P]

Actually, in my experience, it's MUCH EASIER to skate right after someone has killed it and the roof has been blown off the building. You can absorb ALL of that energy and use it for yourself -- there is a TON of energy in the building right after someone has killed it. Yes, you have to block out that score and placement (if they are being announced) but there's just something about the response for that previous skater as you take the ice that carries you. Personally, my best performances are typically right after someone else has totally killed it. The great thing about having the person before you kill it is the crowd is already "warmed up" for you and the energy level is SUPER high.

I saw the look on Nagasu's face when the place erupted after Alissa skated in 2011 and she looked defeated - even before she had been announced to take the ice and it wasn't like only one American lady was going to Worlds...

Nagasu has not been a good "placement pressure" skater. The expectations were low when she made the Olympic team (everyone expected it to be Cohen and...). The expectations for placement at the Olympics was not really there - if anyone was going to be top 5, it was more expected to be Flatt since she was the US champion (that could be debated, but still...) and no one expected either American to challenge for a medal. When she won her National title in 2008, no one expected HER to win (Flatt, Zhang, Meissner...). When she won the SP at Worlds in 2010 and the expectations to "finish" were on her, she blew the opportunity. She had been injured throughout the summer after and her GP season was a little down after that, but she won the SP at Nationals after Czsiny had won the GP final and then she blew that opportunity and finished 3rd. In 2009, she came in as defending National Champion and had issues and ended up 5th. Last year, she was in the final group after the SP within striking distance of the World team and knew Zawadski had a propensity for poor LP, Zhang was still coming back, Czsiny had been skating inconsistently in general, Wagner was someone she had beaten repeatedly over time, and Gao is perpetually 5th, but blew her opportunity BIG TIME to finish 7th behind a Rachel Flatt who skated her LP in the penultimate group. Maybe she will skate well at Nationals this year because the expectations are back to low? Who knows...I know that she seems to be psychologically fragile when there is pressure for placement.

That said, I thought she held up well at NHK! She was second after the SP and I'd could argue that she should have beaten Mao in the FS at least. She also held up pretty well at COC. I think her getting off the podium was less her nerves and more a really strict technical caller/Mirai's tendency to reach for the ice. If she could work on those URs....