Plushenko: Chan Does Not Deserve World Title

[blue_idealist]

I think I agree with Plushenko, but Skate Canada didn't BUY Chan's medal like some posters are saying. If Skate Canada was able to manipulate the results, V/M also would have won, and D/R wouldn't have lost to a subpar S/S in pairs.

 

[pangtongfan]

I think I agree with Plushenko, but Skate Canada didn't BUY Chan's medal like some posters are saying. If Skate Canada was able to manipulate the results, V/M also would have won, and D/R wouldn't have lost to a subpar S/S in pairs.

We dont know all the goings on behind the scenes but it is quite possible V&M were sold out to help buy more marks for Chan. Usually to ensure one winning sacrifices must be made, and lets face it we arent the Russians of the 90s, there are only so many big fish to sacrifice. Canadians know V&M are retiring soon (granted Chan is too), they know V&M already have a gold and already brought Canada the long awaited first ice dance gold on home ice, but they want the Oly mens gold badly, they want a singles star to market (although Canadians havent taken the bait), and so they would be perfectly fine selling out votes for V&M in exchange for help from the powerful U.S to keep Chan on top, as long as we are willing to have D&W on top. Since D&W are surpassing V&M in ability and performance and would probably be beating them anyway right now, the U.S has no worthwhile men to worry about, NA 1-2 dominance continuing in dance is the best thing NA has going for it in the sport now anyway, and the Oly mens gold is the only one Canada lacks (or did before Chan was awared it the 2014 gold on June 2010), it is a good tradeoff for both parties.

As for the pairs Canadians in the excitement of a home country event might be crying for a silver and bronze instead of 3rd or 4th, but really if the event wasnt in Canada who is to say we wouldnt have been 5th and 6th. At the very least the event been held in Europe and a tenative and slightly off D&W with a downgraded jump been scored about 1 point behind S&S with a couple of misses but a throw triple axel mostly successful, Canadians would be ebuliant with joy, but they seem to have gotten too much caught up into the home excitment and overreaching to even demand a better pairs results than they already got. D&R and M-T&M were scoring nowhere near people like Pang & Tong and Barazova & Larionov all year and suddenly they are able to beat a clean S&S in the SP at Worlds, LOL! They did skate a great SP, but still this is figure skating, that just doesnt usually happen that fast. I am not saying they didnt deserve their placements, but if anything their doing as well as they did is more a reflection of the power of the CSA as well.

 

[Mathman]

It makes no sense to me to imagine that Skate Canada would sacrifice Virtue and Moir for Chan. What would be the point?

Also, how would this sacrifice be organized and carried out? David Dore sends a message to the nine judges, saying "pssst, heads up! Lowball V&M and give those extra points to Chan. Pass it on" ?

Why wouldn't the message be, "Cheat for both V&M AND Chan, if you know what's good for you. This is the Big Bad Wolf, Skate Canada, talking. Mwahahahaha.!"

 

[pangtongfan]

It makes no sense to me to imagine that Skate Canada would sacrifice Virtue and Moir for Chan. What would be the point?

Pretty easy. North America would always rather a singles star than a dance or pairs star, and North America can brag the 2 dominant teams in dance anyway, and it doesnt even really matter who wins except to team. Canada now has an ice dance Olympic Gold on home ice to boot, and numerous World titles in the event, anything from here is gravy. Canada though has been denied the mens Olympic Gold for decades, even through a slew of multi World Champions, and so they desperately want that, and after all the past misses of seemingly almost sure things they want to make Chan unbeatable to ensure it, hence why he has to win every event no matter how much of the program he skates with his pants.

Tradeoffs from events happen all the time. You arent new to figure skating and you should know this. Just look at the SLC scandal with the pairs and dance favor swapping between the French and Russians which was publicly outed, and created this whole new stinky scoring system as a fast action ditch solution. Of course just as they were promised for helping the Russians win the pairs, the French won the dance gold (over a Russian team on a 5-4 split, when do you see that happen usually in dance, never) in exchange, just as both parties had agreed on. Skaters have written books about them or their coaches being guaranteed to finish in a certain spot (higher) or another spot (lower) depending if they did or didnt take the deal to help a skater from that country in another event, and those who didnt take the deal ended up in the lower spot promised if they refused, while said skater in the other event ended up in the higher one. Are you saying that these former skaters ALL made those stories up, LOL!

 

[noskates]

duplicate post! Sorry!

 

[noskates]

Had a whole post and it automagically disappeared. My opinion is this whole chit chat about conspiracies and trade-offs, etc. is ridiculous! If you want to blame something - blame the scoring system. Patrick went into the freeskate with a commanding lead - and other than his falls, he had a beautiful skate. Denis Ten maybe could have caught up but he had his own problems. It is what it is. If Plushenko, et.al. have a problem with it - put your skates where your mouth is and beat him the next time you compete. Do I think it's right for someone to win a Gold Medal with those falls? No. But I'm not going to whine about it, either. I'm with Mathman on this. Did someone go "pssst, pssst - if you do this then we can do this and then that will happen and this won't!" I just dont' believe Canada or any other country has that much juice to completely flummox a judging panel that doesn't even include one of their own countrymen. What stake did the judges have in giving Patrick the gold? Or V&M the silver - which is the most ridiculous statement of all. Sacrifice one for the other? V&M never stood a chance against Charlie and Meryl - they didn't need the judges to mark them down.

Isn't it about time everyone accepts the fact that Patrick won? Nothing that's said or done now is going to change at One can only hope that the system is looked at a little more objectively given the fact that he won and find the holes in it.

 

[Mathman]

Had a whole post and it automagically disappeared.

You can usually retrieve a lost post by "autosave."

http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?35821-Lost-your-post-We-now-have-Auto-Save!!!

 

[SGrand]

Chan didn't win SC, deserved to win COR and almost lost the bronze to Javi at GPF. Where is he always winning this year? Oh, and he was last at the Japan Open and didn't win the WTT right? The judges seemed to be judging fair and everyone was saying that they're sending Chan a message. So I ask, what's changed now?

Soooooo, he had a wonderful SP skate where most of the top guns faltered, had a great lead over Denis in the free, and even though Javi and Hanyu fought back valiantly, they still had a couple little errors and could not catch up. Patrick had his mistakes, and Denis made a few small ones. Ten won the free and almost took it all from Chan. People complain that Patrick was over scored in the short, but many have said that Denis was as well, so lets say it was an even playing field. And let's be honest, they weren't the only ones who seemed to be overscored. This "new" (ahem!) phenomena seems to be happening to others as well since people have been moaning about Hanyu's SP scores throughout the season as well.

I don't agree with how he won, but what's done is done. I swear, and I classify myself as a PC fan, I didn't want him to win, didn't expect him to, and I would have been quite happy for him place silver or bronze and Denis take it. I can't help but think that he may have felt the same way while sitting there next to Javi during Denis' scores. I'm sure it's a thrill to win another WC, but do we really think that this is the way that both he AND Skate Canada wanted him to win??? With this whole "sh@t storm" and them all being racked over the coals now??? Pfffft!

ETA: I am hardly any sort of expert in scoring, I just know what I like and I try to study the skaters as best I can. Some have posted the results and agreed with them and some take issue with them. While I thought Denis did a wonderful job and I jumped up for him, I still see differences in both his and Chan's skating and carriage. Denis was a delight, but I still love Chan's arms, movement and footwork.

Oh and what I'm really sad about? The fact that basically Nobody brought their A game!!!! I was looking for the men's event to be more of how the women's went down, with a lot of incredible skates and the best taking it.

 

[Poodlepal]

I sort of feel sorry for the judges, in a way. I've never judged figure skating, but I have judged and run science fairs, and there is a similarity. I've seen good projects not get voted for because of some relatively small mistake (the hypothesis on the wrong side of the board or typos) and I've seen some so-so projects get a lot of votes because of a nice posterboard.

Patrick Chan at his worst is like a messy science-fair project. It looks bad, but when all the points are added up it still comes out pretty good.

Do I think there is still politicking and vote changing? I do, and the pretentiousness and supposed objectivity of this judging system makes it easier to hide. At least under 6.0 everyone knew it was subjective and political. Here, you're expected to believe that someone who can land a quad deserves only a 6 for skating skills, (I mean, what would they give me? A -100?) or that there is a big difference between a 7.0 and a 7.5 for whatever. It's still pretty subjective which makes it easy to cheat if one wished to do so.

I will agree with those who claim that the overemphasis on edging and rotations and the underemphasis on falling is probably the main problem. Nobody at this level should need to be encouraged to "take risks." That's great for the novice skaters, and perhaps the COP is a big improvement for them, but maybe at this level they shouldn't be babied so much.

 

[Olympia]

Here are part from today's longer Plushenko's interview for russian newspaper...
http://evgeni-plushenko.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6&start=2260#p78272
...

- Leaders in single men skating is better in the year?
- Yes, there was even few sensations. In particular, 2nd place of Denis Ten. He is originally from Kazakhstan, but recently him prepared a wonderful coach Frank Carroll, who were engaged with Olympic champion Evan Lysacek and other famous skaters. So, Ten skated very well. As for the world leader Patrick Chan, I liked his short program, but free has disappointed me. Javier Fernandez, on the contrary, was third, well skated free program. But still, I was filled with great respect to Brian Joubert. A real man! In his 28 years, he well skated short, then free program - did two quads. I expected the judges for this performance will put him higher. I am surprised with Daisuke Takahashi. I thought he would be among winners. So, there was happened a lot of surprises.

Thanks for the translation. It's interesting that in talking about Denis Ten's training, Plushy praises Frank Carroll, who of course trained his rival Lysacek. In fact, he even mentions Lysacek in what seems like a completely neutral, professional way. Plushy also says that he liked Chan's short program. He singles out Brian Joubert for praise, pointing out that at the age of 28, Brian did two quads. And he says that he assumed that Daisuke would be among the winners. All in all, not an inflammatory statement in any way. Whatever he said anywhere else, his overall evaluation of the skaters is justifiable from what we know, and downright generous in spots.

 

[SGrand]

Thanks for the translation. It's interesting that in talking about Denis Ten's training, Plushy praises Frank Carroll, who of course trained his rival Lysacek. In fact, he even mentions Lysacek in what seems like a completely neutral, professional way. Plushy also says that he liked Chan's short program. He singles out Brian Joubert for praise, pointing out that at the age of 28, Brian did two quads. And he says that he assumed that Daisuke would be among the winners. All in all, not an inflammatory statement in any way. Whatever he said anywhere else, his overall evaluation of the skaters is justifiable from what we know, and downright generous in spots.

Exactly, that's how I took it too. I don't know his tone, and i would be careful about throwing around accusations regarding federations without proof, But seriously, I'd almost rather hear it from him this way than in a snarky twitter message of 140 characters.
** please don't tell me that he bitched on twitter too lol.

 

[demarinis5]

It's interesting that in talking about Denis Ten's training, Plushy praises Frank Carroll, who of course trained his rival Lysacek. In fact, he even mentions Lysacek in what seems like a completely neutral, professional way. Plushy also says that he liked Chan's short program. He singles out Brian Joubert for praise, pointing out that at the age of 28, Brian did two quads. And he says that he assumed that Daisuke would be among the winners. All in all, not an inflammatory statement in any way. Whatever he said anywhere else, his overall evaluation of the skaters is justifiable from what we know, and downright generous in spots.

This!

 

[Bluebonnet]

** please don't tell me that he bitched on twitter too lol.

Sorry to disappoint you. But Plush did, unclear if it was on twitter, though.

We dont know all the goings on behind the scenes but it is quite possible V&M were sold out to help buy more marks for Chan.

How ridiculous! You have a great imagination! Prove it! I'm sure you can't!

I didn't want him to win, didn't expect him to, and I would have been quite happy for him place silver or bronze and Denis take it.

Neither do I. I so wished he could lose this time. Preferably off the podium. However, Takahashi and Hanyu were self-bombed. Fernandez popped. Ten's program itself was not good enough. I'm truly sorry for Patrick to win this time. But he did. It was a close call and could go either way.

 

[Mathman]

Pretty easy. North America would always rather a singles star than a dance or pairs star, and North America can brag the 2 dominant teams in dance anyway, and it doesnt even really matter who wins except to team.

Well...I can't speak for Skate Canada but that sounds pretty screwy to me. Are you saying that Skate Canada will be thrilled that a North American team, Davis and White, wins the Olympics because, after all, they come from a country close to Canada?

Are you saying that Skate Canada would gladly throw multiple world champions and Olympic gold medalists Virtue and Moir to the wolves in exchnge for a backroom deal with the U.S. to get their men's judge to vote for Chan?

 

[seniorita]

Also, how would this sacrifice be organized and carried out?

Suddently I m picturing a dozen lambs on their way to the judges desks.


Ten replied to Plush: @Tenis_Den: @EvgeniPlushenko Thank you very much, Zhenya! Get well soon

Well Denis Ten must have THE week of his life, he gave two amazing performances,won silver at Worlds and had Plush congradulating him on twitter.

 

[Evgenia]

- Leaders in single men skating is better in the year?
- Yes, there was even few sensations. In particular, 2nd place of Denis Ten. He is originally from Kazakhstan, but recently him prepared a wonderful coach Frank Carroll, who were engaged with Olympic champion Evan Lysacek and other famous skaters. So, Ten skated very well. As for the world leader Patrick Chan, I liked his short program, but free has disappointed me. Javier Fernandez, on the contrary, was third, well skated free program. But still, I was filled with great respect to Brian Joubert. A real man! In his 28 years, he well skated short, then free program - did two quads. I expected the judges for this performance will put him higher. I am surprised with Daisuke Takahashi. I thought he would be among winners. So, there was happened a lot of surprises.

Plushy can become good TV commentator. I like his opinion. Cheerfully and positive but also he can point out the shortcomings

 

[amber68]

I'm with Mathman on this. Did someone go "pssst, pssst - if you do this then we can do this and then that will happen and this won't!" I just dont' believe Canada or any other country has that much juice to completely flummox a judging panel that doesn't even include one of their own countrymen. What stake did the judges have in giving Patrick the gold? Or V&M the silver - which is the most ridiculous statement of all. Sacrifice one for the other? V&M never stood a chance against Charlie and Meryl - they didn't need the judges to mark them down.

You are naïve if you think that this is how things work, in any domain.
You couldn’t convince even a child with this approach, but of course there are plenty of refined methods, perfected by humans in the past two millennia, to convince, persuade and manipulate people (in our case judges) to obtain the desired result.
Two examples from figure skating : mass-media campaign for Sale and Pelletier to get gold & sustained propaganda against Plushenko carried out before Vancouver .
Also you need to strategize and choose the targets.
If V&M never stood a chance before D&W, as you said, why spend resources/time/energy on politicking for them?

 

[Jaana]

sustained propaganda against Plushenko carried out before Vancouver .
Also you need to strategize and choose the targets.

That happened rightfully because of Plushenko´s own thoughtless remarks about his transitions. Plushenko was no victim, he caused it all himself.

 

[amber68]

That happened rightfully because of Plushenko´s own thoughtless remarks about his transitions. Plushenko was no victim, he caused it all himself.

I disagree. Indeed Plushy's remarks were thoughtless but the campaign before Vancouver was much more than taking advantage of silly comments made by one of competitors.

It really had all the elements of a textbook propaganda campaign:
Demonizing the enemy - clips with Lenin's statues falling and Plushy presented as an evil commie
Appeal to authority - Joe Inman, an official ISU judge, sends an e-mail to other official ISU judges, just before the competition, ref. how to score Plushenko's transitions. Accidentally this e-mail leaks to the press...Moreover at ISU seminars there are presented videos of Plushenko and his weak points are given as an example ( it is completely unethical to use a competitor as an example no matter who he/she is, but isn't it amazing that they chose Plushenko despite the fact that I am sure there were plenty of retired skaters who could be given as examples?)
Tireless repetition of an idea - Plushenko & lack of transitions were repeated ad nauseum on all the media channels (including figure skating forums where some pople do post because they have an agenda)

 

[ciocio]

That happened rightfully because of Plushenko´s own thoughtless remarks about his transitions. Plushenko was no victim, he caused it all himself.

Ok, next time Plushenko will say he has more transitions than any other skater in FS history and he´ll receive 10s all the board. Right!
Probably judges can´t see if there are transitions or not, they need Plushenko to point it out.

I disagree. Indeed Plushy's remarks were thoughtless but the campaign before Vancouver was much more than taking advantage of silly comments made by one of competitors.

It really had all the elements of a textbook propaganda campaign:
Demonizing the enemy - clips with Lenin's statues falling and Plushy presented as an evil commie

This is old, the ¨evil commie¨ image exists since Yagudin vs. Plushenko era, that´s how Yagudin became so popular in USA and Canada, people wanted to recreate the Cold War and they ¨adopted¨ Yagudin In 2010 their dream came true because they had their own hero.
IMO Plushenko likes to star in the NBC fluffs and be the evil Russian.